James 1:8 Reed-Kellogg Sentence Diagram help
Hi all,
I have made a sentence diagram of James 1:8 using the “NASB 2020” and while I believe it’s correct; I have some reservations about the verb “being” if it is indeed a verb that is. I assume it’s in the present progress active indicative, however, it doesn’t follow the typical format of: subject + present form of be + present participle form of the verb. so what is going on here?
Comments
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I think part of your problem with this snippet is that it is a snippet. Taking what you said in a different thread, that you are only practicing diagramming of English to improve your grammar recognition skills, I won't refer to the Greek at all, but you should definitely focus on whole sentences when engaged in this process. It is pretty much impossible for forum onlookers to give a proper assessment of this fragment without the entire sentence available to examine. Another consideration...how all of this gets resolved will vary from one English translation to another, so no one can assume what the missing sentence section says unless the specific translation is known.
Also, pretty sure the prep phrase mods the pred adjective "unstable".
I just realized that you have transposed the visible part of the sentence significantly in the process of diagramming it. You have "man" as a subject in your graph, when in the greater sentence, it is a predicate noun (EDIT: based on my comments below, it is part of an adjectival participle phrase).
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Try reading The Verb "To Be" in English (grammar-monster.com). Does man being unstable fit into any of the grammatical uses described there? Or is this fragment even a valid clause and if so, what type? Clause: Definition and Examples (grammar-monster.com). Is "being" a finite verb form? Finite Verbs: Explanation and Examples (grammar-monster.com)
I would suggest that "being" is either a gerund or a participle - your diagram reflects neither. Explore their grammatical use to get yourself on track.
Let me step back a bit in time. I went to a three room, eight grade school where two days a week while the boys had PE, the girls, grades 4-8, had crafts or science. When our craft was something like knitting squares for blankets for refugees, we would conjugate verbs out loud. It was our turn until we made a mistake, then the next girl would take over ... when we got into the esoteric forms only 7 & 8 graders might know, if you made a mistake, the verb would change and the next girl would start at the beginning. This pounded conjugation into our heads so thoroughly that in college I discovered I had a better base of understanding grammar than the students from fancy prep schools. You need to pound the information in English Verb Conjugation - The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation (grammarbook.com) into your head until it is second nature. Knowing the verb and how it behaves in a sentence is so fundamental that there is a form of sentence diagramming called dependency diagrams that begins at the verb.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I would suggest that "being" is either a gerund or a participle - your diagram reflects neither. Explore their grammatical use to get yourself on track.
I considered gerund for a second or two, but it's definitely not functioning as a noun. There simply isn't enough in this verse to constitute a sentence. I doesn't entirely help that "being" isn't technically in the Greek, but since we are focusing only on the English as it is presented, this verse needs to be plugged into the previous verse before this segment can be ordered. This verse has neither subject nor main verb.
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David Paul said:MJ. Smith said:
I would suggest that "being" is either a gerund or a participle - your diagram reflects neither. Explore their grammatical use to get yourself on track.
I considered gerund for a second or two, but it's definitely not functioning as a noun. There simply isn't enough in this verse to constitute a sentence. I doesn't entirely help that "being" isn't technically in the Greek, but since we are focusing only on the English as it is presented, this verse needs to be plugged into the previous verse before this segment can be ordered. This verse has neither subject nor main verb.
I diagramed James 1:5-8.
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I'm heading to bed so I can't look at it closely until morning but I spotted three problems just glancing at it - "like" is not acting as a verb but is introducing a simile; and "generously" modifies giving not "all"; it is the "surf" that is "driven" and "tossed" not the "sea". I'm beginning to think that you need a stronger grasp of English grammar if I am going to be effective helping you diagram the sentences. I have a tendency to use linguistic terms rather than the Language Arts terms used in schools. And I suspect if I talked "valence" of the verb in the steps to diagram a sentence you'd give me a blank stare (many Logos users would [;)])
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Brandon Stevens said:
I diagramed James 1:5-8.
Sheesh...don't know why I'm doing this--I hate this stuff.
Looking only at verses 7-8 (For that person ought...):
"That" is an adjective telling which "person", so should branch below. Have no idea how to graph the infinitive, so maybe that's correct, but since "ought to expect" is a verb phrase, maybe it should all be together? Not sure about how to graph the subordinate clause, but I'm pretty sure the prep phrase "from the Lord" is modifying "will receive" rather than "anything". MJ was right that "being" is either a gerund or participle, but it takes no verb, so it's not functioning as a noun. Which leaves participle...specifically, it is introducing an adjectival participle phrase, which means it's not modifying "ought", but rather modifying "person", that is, "person" (is) "being" a particular kind of "man". Also, you chose to apply an understood (who is), which seems acceptable, but I think that since "unstable" is describing the "man" just as "double-minded" is, you could skip (who is) and just branch "unstable" off "man".
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MJ. Smith said:
I would suggest that "being" is either a gerund or a participle - your diagram reflects neither. Explore their grammatical use to get yourself on track.
Going back to this, check out this webpage...the two best options are 3 & 4, as MJ says, but since "being" takes no verb, option 4 is best and correct.
https://www.englishwithashish.com/use-of-being-in-a-sentence/
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David Paul said:MJ. Smith said:
I would suggest that "being" is either a gerund or a participle - your diagram reflects neither. Explore their grammatical use to get yourself on track.
Going back to this, check out this webpage...the two best options are 3 & 4, as MJ says, but since "being" takes no verb, option 4 is best and correct.
https://www.englishwithashish.com/use-of-being-in-a-sentence/
I restarted the diagram and made the suggested corrections some of which I made naturally as I was re-doing the diagram such as “graciously“ modifying the verb “gives.” I have provided two diagrams one with “being“ as the main verb and one with ”being“ as a participle. In the grammar book I am going through I have yet to come to participles so I may have it modifying the wrong word.
MJ. Smith and David Paul I’m sure this has been to some degree inconvenience for you both, but I truly appreciate your help and advice.
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Verses 7-8 of second diagram look good to me (except for "that" floating free--again, I don't remember the procedure for graphing subordination). Above that section, one thing that jumps out at me is the "God, who gives generously..." passage. Look again at what you have graphed after "who" and think about what is your verb and where should the "and" go. Hint: you have that section graphed as a compound verb.
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A good reason OL vs english ... the 'but' supports the 'if' and a 'then' is implied.
The more I watch this thread (no offense to Brandon), the more I can see that these types of 'school' tools mislead 'meaning' ... not sure about interpretation. I often look at the Emphasized Bible (early discourse approach) ... the editor kind of goes well beyond supportable (especially hebrew), but he does illustrate that visualization tools are 'flat overlays' (effectively, modern rewrites).
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DMB said:
the more I can see that these types of 'school' tools mislead 'meaning' ... not sure about interpretation.
Anyone concerned with grammatical and semantic consistency will go with a tree or dependency diagram as they are language neutral and leave the sentence its original order. See SUGGESTION: Modernize Sentence Diagrammer so it gets more use PART 2 - Trees and dependencies - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) which got little or no support.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
Verses 7-8 of second diagram look good to me (except for "that" floating free--again, I don't remember the procedure for graphing subordination). Above that section, one thing that jumps out at me is the "God, who gives generously..." passage. Look again at what you have graphed after "who" and think about what is your verb and where should the "and" go. Hint: you have that section graphed as a compound verb.
with conjunction “and” the only way I can think to diagram the relative clause “who gives to all generously and without reproach” by diagraming “to all” and ”without reproach” as a compound prepositional phrase. For the subordinate clause at the end I can think of three options:
1. Noun clause,
2. Relative clause, and
3. Adverbial clause
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MJ. Smith said:DMB said:
the more I can see that these types of 'school' tools mislead 'meaning' ... not sure about interpretation.
Anyone concerned with grammatical and semantic consistency will go with a tree or dependency diagram as they are language neutral and leave the sentence its original order. See SUGGESTION: Modernize Sentence Diagrammer so it gets more use PART 2 - Trees and dependencies - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) which got little or no support.
are there any books that you could recommend that teach the semantic tree diagram starting with the very basics?
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Unfortunately, the book I learned from is nearly 50 years old and I've not kept up with introductory books. Some of these may work ...
All Things Linguistic Multiple parts
How to make a syntax tree (Hand drawn and digital) - YouTube
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Unfortunately, the book I learned from is nearly 50 years old and I've not kept up with introductory books. Some of these may work ...
All Things Linguistic Multiple parts
How to make a syntax tree (Hand drawn and digital) - YouTube
Thank you!
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Brandon Stevens said:
with conjunction “and” the only way I can think to diagram the relative clause “who gives to all generously and without reproach” by diagraming “to all” and ”without reproach” as a compound prepositional phrase.
That section and the vv. 7-8 section graph both look good to me now.
The thing to remember each time you graph the next segment in your diagram is that you are asking and answering a pair of mutually informed questions. Look at the section that begins "But he must ask in faith...". "But" is your Mediterranean conjunction (along with "and", etc.) that many ancient languages used to begin a sentence, but which we were told by our grade school English teachers not to use to begin a sentence. Nevertheless, the Bible does it profusely in both Hebrew and Greek, and the conjunction is our introduction to the next clause/sentence.
The next word is "he", obviously the subject of the next clause/sentence. This is where we begin asking our mutual questions. The question is "he WHAT?" (or alternatively, "he DID WHAT?" OR "he WHATed?") The answer to the question identifies the verb, whether action or linking. [Always be on the lookout for more than one answer to the question, in case you have a compound verb.] You correctly answered, "he MUST ASK". The mutual (i.e. flipped) question that we ask to confirm we are on the right track is, "WHO must ask?" This question will confirm that we properly identified the subject. The answer is "HE must ask".
Again, reviewing, "he WHAT?"..."he MUST ASK", and then flipped, "WHO must ask?"..."HE must ask". This "one way and back again" procedure functions as a failsafe.
The point of using the "mutual flipped/reversed questions" process is to 1) give you flexibility in your starting point, in case you know the verb but are unsure about the subject, or vice versa, 2) provide a method for searching for compound elements, i.e. compound subjects, compound verbs, compound adjective or adverbs, etc., and 3) of course, provides a failsafe method of checking your answers.
Moving through the clause, the next question to ask is "he must ask WHAT?" What follows is "in faith without any doubting". What are we dealing with here? Two things should jump out...IN and WITHOUT...because these are prepositions. [Side remark: critical point of study!! LEARN to recognize all preps on sight. There is a finite list, approximately 100. In approximately 50 additional cases, more than one word can combine to make a single compound preposition (i.e. "according to", "because of", "apart from", "due to", "in case of", etc.). Remember from the other thread that removing all prep phrases gives you your loose core. In this clause, the loose core is also the tight core, because taking away all the prep phrases leaves just the simple subject (he) and simple predicate/verb (must ask).] So we have two prep phrases, and we ask the two mutual flipped questions for each one...firstly, "WHAT in faith?" and "WHAT without any doubting?" Your answer to the first question, according to your diagram, is "MUST ASK in faith", so to confirm if that is sensible and correct, we ask the second question but in the other direction, "must ask HOW?", to which the answer is "must ask IN FAITH", and the answer to the "how?" question means we have an adverbial prep phrase modifying the verb. On this point (asking and answering "how?"), this link may help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDwXHTcodNg Not joking: watching all eight Grammar Rock videos will help immensely. Schoolhouse Rock is one of the greatest national treasures this country has ever produced.Regarding the next prep phrase, according to the diagram, the answer to "WHAT without any doubting?" is "FAITH without any doubting", and the reversed question of "in faith HOW?" is "in faith WITHOUT ANY DOUBTING". Does that sound a tad bit awkward? Yes, a bit. So, perhaps we should reconsider and reframe the questions. Again, "WHAT without any doubting?", but this time let's try "MUST ASK without any doubting". Better? Seems so, so trying the reverse question, "must ask HOW?" yields "must ask WITHOUT ANY DOUBTING". Still better? Yes, very clear and not awkward at all. Thus we have a second adverbial prep phrase modifying the verb.
As you progress through all of your sentences, constantly apply this mutual question process. Remember that sometimes the question may have more than one answer if you have a compound situation (i.e. compound verb, compound noun, compound adjective, compound preposition, etc.) Also, don't forget about using the removal of prepositional material to find your loose and tight core. These two strategies will get you safely home in the majority of cases.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:Brandon Stevens said:
with conjunction “and” the only way I can think to diagram the relative clause “who gives to all generously and without reproach” by diagraming “to all” and ”without reproach” as a compound prepositional phrase.
That section and the vv. 7-8 section graph both look good to me now.
The thing to remember each time you graph the next segment in your diagram is that you are asking and answering a pair of mutually informed questions. Look at the section that begins "But he must ask in faith...". "But" is your Mediterranean conjunction (along with "and", etc.) that many ancient languages used to begin a sentence, but which we were told by our grade school English teachers not to use to begin a sentence. Nevertheless, the Bible does it profusely in both Hebrew and Greek, and the conjunction is our introduction to the next clause/sentence.
The next word is "he", obviously the subject of the next clause/sentence. This is where we begin asking our mutual questions. The question is "he WHAT?" (or alternatively, "he DID WHAT?" OR "he WHATed?") The answer to the question identifies the verb, whether action or linking. [Always be on the lookout for more than one answer to the question, in case you have a compound verb.] You correctly answered, "he MUST ASK". The mutual (i.e. flipped) question that we ask to confirm we are on the right track is, "WHO must ask?" This question will confirm that we properly identified the subject. The answer is "HE must ask".
Again, reviewing, "he WHAT?"..."he MUST ASK", and then flipped, "WHO must ask?"..."HE must ask". This "one way and back again" procedure functions as a failsafe.
The point of using the "mutual flipped/reversed questions" process is to 1) give you flexibility in your starting point, in case you know the verb but are unsure about the subject, or vice versa, 2) provide a method for searching for compound elements, i.e. compound subjects, compound verbs, compound adjective or adverbs, etc., and 3) of course, provides a failsafe method of checking your answers.
Moving through the clause, the next question to ask is "he must ask WHAT?" What follows is "in faith without any doubting". What are we dealing with here? Two things should jump out...IN and WITHOUT...because these are prepositions. [Side remark: critical point of study!! LEARN to recognize all preps on sight. There is a finite list, approximately 100. In approximately 50 additional cases, more than one word can combine to make a single compound preposition (i.e. "according to", "because of", "apart from", "due to", "in case of", etc.). Remember from the other thread that removing all prep phrases gives you your loose core. In this clause, the loose core is also the tight core, because taking away all the prep phrases leaves just the simple subject (he) and simple predicate/verb (must ask).] So we have two prep phrases, and we ask the two mutual flipped questions for each one...firstly, "WHAT in faith?" and "WHAT without any doubting?" Your answer to the first question, according to your diagram, is "MUST ASK in faith", so to confirm if that is sensible and correct, we ask the second question but in the other direction, "must ask HOW?", to which the answer is "must ask IN FAITH", and the answer to the "how?" question means we have an adverbial prep phrase modifying the verb. On this point (asking and answering "how?"), this link may help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDwXHTcodNg Not joking: watching all eight Grammar Rock videos will help immensely. Schoolhouse Rock is one of the greatest national treasures this country has ever produced.Regarding the next prep phrase, according to the diagram, the answer to "WHAT without any doubting?" is "FAITH without any doubting", and the reversed question of "in faith HOW?" is "in faith WITHOUT ANY DOUBTING". Does that sound a tad bit awkward? Yes, a bit. So, perhaps we should reconsider and reframe the questions. Again, "WHAT without any doubting?", but this time let's try "MUST ASK without any doubting". Better? Seems so, so trying the reverse question, "must ask HOW?" yields "must ask WITHOUT ANY DOUBTING". Still better? Yes, very clear and not awkward at all. Thus we have a second adverbial prep phrase modifying the verb.
As you progress through all of your sentences, constantly apply this mutual question process. Remember that sometimes the question may have more than one answer if you have a compound situation (i.e. compound verb, compound noun, compound adjective, compound preposition, etc.) Also, don't forget about using the removal of prepositional material to find your loose and tight core. These two strategies will get you safely home in the majority of cases.
Hey David,
I made the changes to the prepositional phrases (See below). I know the adjective questions (which? what kind? How many? whose?) and the adverb questions (how? When? where? To what extent? Why?) I guess I just need to be more diligent in asking them.
I truly appreciate your advice and help. [:)]
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David Paul said:
"But" is your Mediterranean conjunction (along with "and", etc.) that many ancient languages used to begin a sentence
Two questions as I don't understand what you mean:
- what do you mean by "Mediterranean conjunction"? I've not heard the term before.
- I know that the use of a "conjunction" to start a sentence is common in Semitic languages but it is not common in most Indo-European languages - very long compounds and very long sentences are. They also often use particles to begin sentences. Can you give me a grammar or syntax reference for the use of conjunctions to begin sentences in Greek? It would be a very interesting bit of knowledge to have as Greek culture has some quirks that show influences outside the Indo-European.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
what do you mean by "Mediterranean conjunction"? I've not heard the term before.
I was half expecting you to mention that. It's not a professional term; it's actually the first time I've ever used it...coined it. I don't expect it to catch on, and I'm not basing my reputation on it. It's an observational comment based on my recollection. Your Greek is probably as good as or better than mine. Still, for reinforcement of the idea, check out the second sentence of the second paragraph after the heading Chapter 9: Conjunctions.
[Aargh! My desktop is still on the fritz and Mobile apparently won't allow link insertion to text, so here's the link:]
https://www.biblicaltraining.org/transcriptions/lecture-6-conjunctions-phrases-etcWhen you scroll there, it says "The standard Greek starts with a conjunction. They rarely start sentences without conjunctions." Is that true? Dunno...but I assume whoever said that probably knows better than I. I just know that it seems that way to me, or at least that it happens often enough.
As I said, my usage of the modifier "Mediterranean" above is the first time I've used it in this context (parts of speech), but I have used it for years in describing vowel sounds, such as the Mediterranean "short i" sound (the "long e" sound in English). Two things informed my coining the term: 1) again, observation that many languages surrounding the Sea's domain display the vowel sound, and 2) it's quite to be expected that such would be the case given the tremendous influence that the Phoenicians played in dispersing the alphabetic script in their sea travels, the Mediterranean being their playground. I remember when reading in my World Book encyclopedia as a kid, that written alphabetic language (sound-based scripts) was sourced in Phoenician. They likely received the innovation from the folks who conceived Proto-Siniatic, but Proto-Canaanite (which is the apparent source of Phoenician) is essentially the same animal, so the time-table and influence issue is effectively a toss-up. To be clear, this term is based on experiential data and is thus annecdotal, but I think it's largely legit. You, of course, with your philological training, have more background knowledge, so feel free to correct if you see fit.
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David Paul said:
"short i" sound (the "long e" sound in English
This is to me the normal pronunciation throughout many Indo-European languages - Sanskrit, Pali, Avestan, Old Persian ... and I do understand what is meant by Greek sentences starting with conjunctions ... a statement made using somewhat different definitions of the parts of speech than I am used to i.e. traditional Greek rather than traditional Proto-Indo-European or modern linguistics parts of speech. Thanks for clarifying - your statements make perfect sense now that I understand what you mean.
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My original intent in applying the phrase "Mediterranean short-i" and the like is just to give a basis and context for the difference in sounds compared to English when addressing people who are unfamiliar and/or skeptical with such a pronunciation. I've always understood that the phenomenon could be broader than my direct familiarity. My historical concern is primarily focused on a Bible backgrounds context, and that is usually the context of interest for those I speak with. By using "Mediterranean", I am not intending to say that the phenomenon was either initiated in that region nor is it solely found in that area. I'm just asserting that it occurs throughout the area that is of interest to those interested in Biblical studies. It is a descriptor intended for a laymen audience.
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