Official: Logos 10 is here
Comments
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I think I'm too late
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nice
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The new Factbook enhancements are simply outstanding! I love how it now integrates with the Sermon Editor, making sermon preparation so much more efficient.
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Am I allowed to be completely confused about versions? I don't think I'm a typical Logos user. I mainly got into the software for the range of available books, originally in version 7 I think, so I've tended to use free download versions and add books as I want them. I'm not a pastor and I don't have a books budget, so hundreds of dollars/pounds Sterling at a time are out of the question, although I've spent an alarming [:)] amount on books at different times.
I've generally waited for the new version to be available for free download. But now, instead of being told I've got Logos 9 or 10, I've got 27.2, with no feature set and a v7 library. I'm a bit lost because the publicity says very little about there being three things (software, feature set, library) to upgrade, or how they inter-relate, or why I'd worry.
I've plainly got the new interface. Do I really care about anything else? What's a feature set anyway, and why would I want a library when I've already got one? I've read the publicity material, but it just doesn't seem to relate to my situation. I think perhaps that Logos are going all-out for the "professional" market, and I'm just an edge case?
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The name is the hint: It provides features.DavidR said:What's a feature set anyway
Do you want 500 books or 1000? If your intent is simply to read, perhaps you don't need a large library. If you want to research, perhaps you want a larger one.DavidR said:why would I want a library when I've already got one?
DavidR said:I've got 27.2
I have always grumbled a bit about the nomenclature. The recent move helps a bit. The software is, and has always been, free. Logos has now disassociated the naming schema from the libraries (i.e. L10) and the software (i.e. 27.2). The software versioning numbers will rapidly rise. Every 6 weeks it will be a new first number (i.e. 28.x won't be too long from now).DavidR said:I've generally waited for the new version to be available for free download.
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JT (alabama24) said:
(i.e. 28.x won't be too long from now).
JT took a nap; 28.1 is out; 29.0 is in beta. JT has to work extra-hard in the fall to support Alabama so naps are to be expected. [:D] Now if he supported Washington . . .[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Been absent from the forums for awhile and need to get back engaged. Really am enjoying Logos 10. Definitely faster - with my upgraded laptop - have to get my 5 point harness out. Definitely like the changes and improvements...but that has been pretty much the days as I still remember the Libronix days. [:D]
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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I have some questions similar to David R (Sept 2023), but with more specifics. I have for years been confused as to why I keep getting prompts (which are disconcertingly demanding) to upgrade to Logos (x), whatever the then-current version is. With the help of others on this Forum, I have now determined that I have Logos 10, or at least the software associated with Logos 10, if not the book packages.
I would like to state first my subsequent understanding of how Logos works (it would be great to have a kind of administrative tutorial on these subjects), and then I would like to ask some questions:
Understanding: At any given time, one can purchase a package of books in a wide range of sizes (designated by the typical metals: gold, platinum, silver, etc). Until either more books are added to that level or the software is improved, that buyer is wholly current. However, s/he can become uncurrent when either a software upgrade is announced or more books are added to the package s/he purchased. The former can be remedied by a software download (maybe, I’m not sure about that), but the latter may be remedied only by spending more money on the new books that Logos prescribes.
Questions: while I have the financial wherewithal, motivation and the rationale to continuously expand my library, I have decided not to spend any more with Logos until I thoroughly understand what I am buying and perhaps more importantly, what the risks are of continuing to spend money with Logos.
1. If I buy no more books from Logos, will Logos continue to urge me to upgrade the software (as distinct from the books library) such that someday, I won’t be able to access the library that I have paid for? In other words, will you stop supporting older versions?
2. Is there somewhere I can go to see what I have and what purchasing the next level up would get me? I realize I can see in the Logos advertisements what is included in each “upgrade”, but what if I already have some of these books? I really do not want to buy books twice, but I can see no way of preventing that.
3. I don’t understand the advantage of buying Logos’s next upgrade of books for my particular set (Platinum) when I have my eye on other sets of books that I would like. Why not spend money on what I want rather than what Logos wants me to buy?
4. If I decide to just buy what I want to buy, what are the risks to not following Logos’s recommended package upgrades, other than continuously being bombarded with invitations to “upgrade” (is there any way to turn that off?)
5. Recently, I have been tempted to buy a commentary on a particular book of the Bible I’m studying, but then realize that it is a part of a larger set which perhaps someday will be included in a book upgrade. Since I don’t know whether I would get credit for already having bought one volume of a set of commentaries, I have recently been deciding just not to buy anything. Would I get credit in future upgrades in that case?
Sorry for the lengthy post, but these questions have been building up for a long time.
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William E. Barker said:
I have for years been confused as to why I keep getting prompts (which are disconcertingly demanding) to upgrade to Logos (x), whatever the then-current version is.
Of course, Logos as a company makes money by selling you an upgrade (which on the other hand provides for new functionality, so users typically like that). And it is not reasonable to support outdated software versions from years back. But I think you are still confusing the software - i.e. the engine running Logos - with the feature levels and the book packages. This is actually one reason why Logos changed the numbering format of the software, to get away from that confusion and come to a state where nearly every user runs the same, current version of the software.
The software version you are running should be Logos 30 - or Logos 31 Beta 3 if you are running the beta program - and that should be immediately clear from the about page.William E. Barker said:With the help of others on this Forum, I have now determined that I have Logos 10, or at least the software associated with Logos 10, if not the book packages.
William E. Barker said:Understanding: At any given time, one can purchase a package of books in a wide range of sizes (designated by the typical metals: gold, platinum, silver, etc). Until either more books are added to that level or the software is improved, that buyer is wholly current. However, s/he can become uncurrent when either a software upgrade is announced or more books are added to the package s/he purchased. The former can be remedied by a software download (maybe, I’m not sure about that), but the latter may be remedied only by spending more money on the new books that Logos prescribes.
I maybe don't understand your Understanding, but it actually sounds very wrong or confused to me.
- The software itself is free and updated every six weeks - to be current with regard to the software, one needs to apply those upgrades, that's it. Those updates will contain bug fixes and ensure the software works on the latest releases of the Windows and Mac operating systems so it is advisable to stay current with the software.
- The many packages of books are associated with the metals and the main target audience, but most often also with the major functionality release number. So you can buy Logos 6 Reformed Silver or Logos 8 Baptist Bronze. Those are the book packages. They in themselves are not current or uncurrent. Book packages will be compiled anew for each of those major functionality releases - books will be added and other books will be taken out. When you buy a book package, you'll only pay the dynamic prize for the books you don't own - which still may be substantial due to the aforementioned changes in content. There are also book packages unrelated to the major functionality releases.
- Then there is the functionality. With the major releases there usually come Feature Packs, those are again mostly associated to metals. For the most recent major release, they are bundled with the book packages (so the Silver level book packs are bundled with the Silver level Feature Set etc. - up to Gold, which has the Full Feature Set), but one can buy the Feature Sets on themselves without buying a book package. Or one can have access to the Feature Sets through a subscription. There are even special Feature Sets for counseling or preaching. Being current with respect to functionality means to own or have access to a Feature Set of any level of the latest major release.
Actually it is helpful to run the latest software in order to keep up with the changes in your OS as explained above. Logos has promised to keep the software free and available. Even if in some future this would disruptively change (such as should Logos go bankrupt), you could still run the latest free software - if you are thinking in decades, it might require keeping up old hardware or using emulators/virtual machines. Every company will stop supporting old versions - this in itself is no risk as long as you get new versions for free. And if Logos ceased to exist today, you'd still be able to run the software and access your books for the foreseeable future.William E. Barker said:1. If I buy no more books from Logos, will Logos continue to urge me to upgrade the software (as distinct from the books library) such that someday, I won’t be able to access the library that I have paid for? In other words, will you stop supporting older versions?
William E. Barker said:2. Is there somewhere I can go to see what I have and what purchasing the next level up would get me? I realize I can see in the Logos advertisements what is included in each “upgrade”, but what if I already have some of these books? I really do not want to buy books twice, but I can see no way of preventing that.
If you go to any bundle page in the Logos store, you should see a list of books included, with their individual price given or "owned". You can then choose to excluding the "owned" books and will see only what you get from buying that package. You can't buy the same book twice, you'll only ever pay for the new stuff you are getting (which is called "dynamic pricing")
William E. Barker said:3. I don’t understand the advantage of buying Logos’s next upgrade of books for my particular set (Platinum) when I have my eye on other sets of books that I would like. Why not spend money on what I want rather than what Logos wants me to buy?
You don't need to buy Logos 10 Platinum Standard if you own Logos 9 Platinum Standard. Look around and buy what you want - I don't see Logos forcing anybody to buy a specific set or "level" of set. If the books you want are in a Lutheran Gold package, go for it!William E. Barker said:4. If I decide to just buy what I want to buy, what are the risks to not following Logos’s recommended package upgrades, other than continuously being bombarded with invitations to “upgrade” (is there any way to turn that off?)
I don't see any risks at all in doing so. If your goal should be to have all features available "just in case" you'd be advised to buy any Logos 10 Gold level package - or the Full Feature Upgrade. But if you are fully fine with the Logos 9 features, or a smaller set of Logos 10 features, that's fully okay.William E. Barker said:5. Recently, I have been tempted to buy a commentary on a particular book of the Bible I’m studying, but then realize that it is a part of a larger set which perhaps someday will be included in a book upgrade. Since I don’t know whether I would get credit for already having bought one volume of a set of commentaries, I have recently been deciding just not to buy anything. Would I get credit in future upgrades in that case?
You would. As I said, you never pay twice. However, there's a catch: The base packages give a discount of over 90% for the included books. If you buy an expensive commentary for $100, it will reduce the dynamic price of the package only by less than $10 (or taken the other way round, if this commentary was included in a base package, you'd pay less than $10 for it - but of course you'd pay for lots of other books besides it). Note that whether any commentary set at any time will be part of a base package and then which base package is pure speculation. It may not happen for a long time. Some are much more likely than others.I hope this helps!
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB Mick, well said.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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NB Mick, A much-belated thank you for your detailed reply. I just got a call from Logos asking why I haven't upgraded to Logos 10 yet. The call reminded me that I had not come back to this forum to see whether anyone had address my series of questions. I am very thankful that you did in such a careful and complete way. Unfortunately, as I told my caller, I am in the middle of a large project right now (I am a layman and still working, so I cannot always pay attention to Logos matters when I want), so while I have read through your response, I clearly am going to have to return to them, but I wanted to thank you before too much more time had passed.
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Hi Mark,
G'day to you.
I have the following questions regarding LOGOS-Pro being offered presently as a subscription.
I hope you will answer each specifically.
1. Will the changeover affect adversely any of the existing LOGOS 10 features? In other words, through using LOGOS-Pro, will there be any exiting features in LOGOS10 that will be rendered inoperable? YES or NO?If ‘yes', what are those features please?2. After subscribing, should I need to unsubscribe, and revert back to LOGOS10, will any books purchased outright by me from LOGOS, either previously to the switch to LOGOS-Pro, or purchased subsequently after the switch-over, ever cease to be a part of my permanent library?3. Following on the above question, should I ever need to revert back to LOGOS10, I presume that this would be possible without difficulty. By this I also mean that my ’Notes’ etc. will remain unaffected by the change-back and will be accessible via LOGOS10 from then on.4. Would the LOGOS-PRO work on my other devices with at the least the present ease? YES or NO?If NO, then would it be possible to have LOGOS10 running on some devices and LOGOS-PRO on others?As for example, I have 2 laptops and several other devices. Would it be possible to run LOGOS10 on 1 laptop and LOGOSPRO on the second and likewise on other deices, if I need to for whatever other reason, in future?5. Once LOGOS-PRO is installed, would an internet connection be essential to use LOGOS-PRO? In the absence of an internet connection, would the program default to LOGOS10?The reason is that when I travel abroad, I may not have internet connection at some locations. So, how does the possible non availability of an internet connection affect this new LOGOS-PRO once installed?So will the program default to LOGOS10 which I now have, in such eventualities?URGENTLY Awaiting your POINTWISE clarifications to enable me to move forward.Thanks in anticipation.Blessings,In Christ Jesus,Tony.0 -
Hi Tony,
not being Mark, just a fellow user, but I think much of what you're asking has been answered at some point on the forums, so I'll give it a try:
Anthony Mankodi said:1. Will the changeover affect adversely any of the existing LOGOS 10 features? In other words, through using LOGOS-Pro, will there be any exiting features in LOGOS10 that will be rendered inoperable?
No. Regardless of whether you are using Logos-Pro now (which is an early-access subscription on top of Logos 10) or a future subscription or one-time-payment, this will not affect your existing exciting Logos 10 features. This is the same as Logos 10 features didn't render inoperable any Logos 9 features you may have had. Note that there may be some changes to existing features to make them work alongside new features (such as being able to/being forced to select between smart and precise book searches. Non-subscribers to Logos Pro may see the precise book search only and not the book search UI as it looked prior to Logos Pro - I hope this example makes sense).
Anthony Mankodi said:2. After subscribing, should I need to unsubscribe, and revert back to LOGOS10, will any books purchased outright by me from LOGOS, either previously to the switch to LOGOS-Pro, or purchased subsequently after the switch-over, ever cease to be a part of my permanent library?
No. Your purchase books are yours, period.
Anthony Mankodi said:3. Following on the above question, should I ever need to revert back to LOGOS10, I presume that this would be possible without difficulty. By this I also mean that my ’Notes’ etc. will remain unaffected by the change-back and will be accessible via LOGOS10 from then on.
Yes.
Anthony Mankodi said:4. Would the LOGOS-PRO work on my other devices with at the least the present ease?
Yes - taking into account that features work differently (or don't work) on different types of devices. Desktop versions (i.e. Windows or Mac) are much more powerful and complete than the web app and the various mobile apps.
Anthony Mankodi said:As for example, I have 2 laptops and several other devices. Would it be possible to run LOGOS10 on 1 laptop and LOGOSPRO on the second and likewise on other deices, if I need to for whatever other reason, in future?
I don't think so, at least not without "freezing" a device in an old version. Logos Pro works like a license to a feature set. Those parts that work on a specific device will always work on that type of device, if current and synchronized with the license servers. On the other hand I don't see the reason to run both in parallel, as Logos Pro does not replace features but adds additional features and those are not mandatory to use.
Anthony Mankodi said:5. Once LOGOS-PRO is installed, would an internet connection be essential to use LOGOS-PRO? In the absence of an internet connection, would the program default to LOGOS10?
Once again, Logos Pro and Logos 10 are not two mutually exclusive programs or modes of execution. Logos 10 (actually Logos 33 and whatever the current software release number will be in the future) is a powerful bible software engine with a multitude of features. Logos Pro is a subscription that gives access to a growing bundle of new features, some of which are using the internet (as some current Logos 10 features do, too). If you are out-of-internet, those features won't work (such as smart All-search which runs on the whole Logos catalog, not your licensed part of it) - the others will.
Hope this helps a bit to clarify (and Mark may of course correct me, if I'm wrong at some point)
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Hi Tony,
not being Mark, just a fellow user, but I think much of what you're asking has been answered at some point on the forums, so I'll give it a try:
Anthony Mankodi said:1. Will the changeover affect adversely any of the existing LOGOS 10 features? In other words, through using LOGOS-Pro, will there be any exiting features in LOGOS10 that will be rendered inoperable?
No. Regardless of whether you are using Logos-Pro now (which is an early-access subscription on top of Logos 10) or a future subscription or one-time-payment, this will not affect your existing exciting Logos 10 features. This is the same as Logos 10 features didn't render inoperable any Logos 9 features you may have had. Note that there may be some changes to existing features to make them work alongside new features (such as being able to/being forced to select between smart and precise book searches. Non-subscribers to Logos Pro may see the precise book search only and not the book search UI as it looked prior to Logos Pro - I hope this example makes sense).
Can we be sure about the answer No to this question? Mark seems to contradict that with a Yes in his response to me....
Frank Sauer said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.
So you will own and have access to the feature "forever" - OR until they upgrade it or change the name and possibly resell it to you like Sermon File and the Sermon importer which seems to be its renamed version!
They advertise that you own the Feature forever but then do not honor that advertising - very unethical! "Four years of great value" is not the promise they make nor that they advertise....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Thanks Mick.
That certainly helped,
Blessings,
In Christ Jesus,
Tony
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Frank Sauer said:
Can we be sure about the answer No to this question? Mark seems to contradict that with a Yes in his response to me....
I think this aspect is actually not about Tony's question or the Logos-Pro subscription, but about the change of features at all - regardless of whether they be acquired by purchasing a package or subscribing to a feature.
Sometimes things will change or will be phased out.
- Handouts are an example.
- Community Notes are another, much more recent one
- (Faithlife Assistant would come to mind if there ever was a productive use of it).
- Much less prominent, but one that affected my use of Logos: the ability to import WordLists from an xml-file. Then the stop of the Flashcard app for the Word Lists.
- Support for old OS levels is to some extent part of this as well.
And there sometimes are larger overhauls of features which disrupt prior uses (such as Notes).
In general, I think I'm known as an advocate for keeping existing features, providing very generous backward compatibility or a way to convert the old world into the new with as much control and retention of functionality as possible. However, I understand that change must inevitably occur in some places - and keeping a limited implementation of some feature to avoid disruption for some users shouldn't stand in the way of improving it so it fulfills the need for a much larger group of users.
My experience with all of this is: it happens. It happens very rarely (given the plethora of features that exist), it most often happens with loooooong forewarning and often with a lot of grace towards users. I definitely wouldn't use words like 'unethical' or such - actually to the contrary.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:Frank Sauer said:
Can we be sure about the answer No to this question? Mark seems to contradict that with a Yes in his response to me....
I think this aspect is actually not about Tony's question or the Logos-Pro subscription, but about the change of features at all - regardless of whether they be acquired by purchasing a package or subscribing to a feature.
Sometimes things will change or will be phased out.
- Handouts are an example.
- Community Notes are another, much more recent one
- (Faithlife Assistant would come to mind if there ever was a productive use of it).
- Much less prominent, but one that affected my use of Logos: the ability to import WordLists from an xml-file. Then the stop of the Flashcard app for the Word Lists.
- Support for old OS levels is to some extent part of this as well.
And there sometimes are larger overhauls of features which disrupt prior uses (such as Notes).
In general, I think I'm known as an advocate for keeping existing features, providing very generous backward compatibility or a way to convert the old world into the new with as much control and retention of functionality as possible. However, I understand that change must inevitably occur in some places - and keeping a limited implementation of some feature to avoid disruption for some users shouldn't stand in the way of improving it so it fulfills the need for a much larger group of users.
My experience with all of this is: it happens. It happens very rarely (given the plethora of features that exist), it most often happens with loooooong forewarning and often with a lot of grace towards users. I definitely wouldn't use words like 'unethical' or such - actually to the contrary.
If you don't consider selling something as "Forever", knowing that it will not be honored unethical - that's your opinion.... My opinion is that the continued marketing of Forever access, which has a history of not being honored and is acknowledged as not being planned to be honored is not ethical business practices....
As for grace.... Faithlife has received a LOT of grace in regards to these failures to honor their business marketing - grace that I am not sure of the number of users that gloss it over would apply to other companies should they have continued the same practice.
All Faithlife need to do is stop marketing Feature access as forever... Unless they plan on honoring it as such
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Just as a point of clarification, Anthony
Anthony Mankodi said:2. After subscribing, should I need to unsubscribe, and revert back to LOGOS10, will any books purchased outright by me from LOGOS, either previously to the switch to LOGOS-Pro, or purchased subsequently after the switch-over, ever cease to be a part of my permanent library?
3. Following on the above question, should I ever need to revert back to LOGOS10, I presume that this would be possible without difficulty. By this I also mean that my ’Notes’ etc. will remain unaffected by the change-back and will be accessible via LOGOS10 from then on.
You questions relate to cancelling your subscription whilst "revert back to Logos 10" relates to the effect of cancelling as a user invested in Logos 10. This is what I want to clarify, if only for the sake of others reading this thread!
If you are running Logos version 45 at the time you will not revert back to Logos 10 (let alone the current version 33) because:
- it will not be supported by FL
- it will not support the changes to features you own.
- think about Search and the changes for Logos 10 that you can't enjoy if you "revert back" to Logos 9.
- also think about Notes, another core feature that was radically changed in the past
- it will likely not support the changes to/for books you purchased during subscription (and before!).
The unknown with existing features is whether they will become totally AI, with the need (currently expressed by FL) to be supported by subscription. But I suspect AI will be a licensed addon, as with Search and Sermon Builder, and you will "revert" to a feature without AI and without any special interface.
The future for new users coming off subscription is not as certain!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Frank Sauer said:
If you don't consider selling something as "Forever", knowing that it will not be honored unethical - that's your opinion.... My opinion is that the continued marketing of Forever access, which has a history of not being honored and is acknowledged as not being planned to be honored is not ethical business practices....
To be honest, I'm not very familiar with the specifics of what you're discussing, as I've never cared enough to look into it (by the time any feature would be abandoned, I'm quite happy to purchase the new feature set. And I haven't been overly disappointed by retired features thus far). That being said, I agree that if the word "forever" is used, it should have an attached asterisk explaining the possible exceptions. If that were included, I would not consider the language or the marketing unethical. It is true that the feature as it is purchased would never need to be paid for again, which is the main point of the marketing. Using simplified words like "forever" is commonplace and generally accepted in marketing in the US.
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