Comment Re:Logos 10
Thank you for Logos 10. I updated all the feature sets per my usual procedure and will be updating my various libraries to 10 Silver as finances permit.
One comment and then I promise to keep my big trap shut as so many of my friends have suggested. Perhaps it's my age (84), but I'd really like to see very narrow vertical and horizontal lines on my page separating the various boxes and columns. Sometimes I find myself getting lost thinking my cursor is in my Bible when It's not, etcetera.
That's it. God bless.
Gerry
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Gerald --- Congratulations on living a long life! Hopefully God will bless me with such!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Perhaps it's my age (84), but I'd really like to see very narrow vertical and horizontal lines on my page separating the various boxes and columns. Sometimes I find myself getting lost thinking my cursor is in my Bible when It's not, etcetera.Indeed ... In L9, the panels and toolbar had a darker border line which seems to be missing in L10. This lack does make it quite a bit harder to recognize different panels and can more easily cause such "troubles" as you describe.
I pray, this point ("bug") in the UI design will be adjusted soon in an update.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Hi Gerald:
I sympathize. I'm a couple of decades behind you, but with significant vision impairments. I'm afraid we're stuck with inexplicable User Interface fads for the duration. I'm not sure who the target audience for all this silliness is, but it doesn't include you and me. Logos is among the least offensive programs in that respect than many others I deal with, so I'm thankful for that.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Well, it's been over a week now and nothing from Logos regarding this problem.
Gerry, I wouldn't read too much into 'a whole week' ... they've been trying to respond to various problems ... product sales, a few bugs, etc
But I think your point is good ... I doubt you're in the minority. But it's unlikely to be fixed. They're very much into pretty displays, and try to 'grey' anything that can be grey'd. Hide anything that can be hidden. They like 'Easter eggs' as a UI principle. Ironically, their primary market, if surveys are to be believed, is an older 'greying' customer base.
And at least on my M1 Mac, the 'mouse' doesn't line up with their scroll bars quite right. So, it goes with the cutesy.
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it's been over a week now and nothing from Logos regarding this problem
Don't forget that these are peer-to-peer forums although after a new release we can count on significant FL participation. But if the same problem is reported on several threads, they don't always respond in every thread. And they will respond to crashes and incorrect results before they get to the cosmetic/usability/accessibility issues. I am a bit younger than you and my preference for contrast and lines is similar to yours. But we need to be patient for the noise to die down so our voices may be heard.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hmmmm, when I post my screen shot here it doesn't seem to be a problem. However on my computer, the gray areas aren't there!!
That's very odd; a screenshot should show exactly how Logos 10 is displaying on your screen.
Could you take a photo of your monitor (with a mobile phone) and upload it, if that shows the problem you're describing?
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when I post my screen shot here it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Hi Gerald. Whenever I've seen a difference between a screenshot and what's actually on the monitor, it has been a problem with the monitor, i.e. it's not displaying exactly what the graphics card is sending it.
It could be monitor settings, or it could be a failing monitor. Worth checking anyway.
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Bradley, good to hear from you. Allen, you nailed it! The problem is in the monitor or the graphics card. I've switched the monitors back and forth, not easy with these beasts.
I have two identical Samsung monitors fed by a GeForce GTX1070 card and I suspect the card. Switching Logos to the other monitor solved the "problem", though barely. Changing the monitor's brightness / contrast did nothing to fix things.
Bradley, this wasn't a problem with Logos 9 or earlier. Being as I'm not the only one complaining, can't you guys boost the gray / black level just a little bit? We'll be forever grateful! Meantime, I've switched Logos to the other monitor.
Gerry0 -
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Hi Gerald!
Have you tried updating your video card drivers to the latest version? I think this may solve the issue.0 -
Luciano,
System was fine with Logos 9 - Not so with Logos 10.
Thunderbird and other programs work fine. Logos 10 doesn't.
Logos 10 is ever so slightly better on one monitor than on the other.
I can't find a graphics driver newer than what I have currently. but I don't really see how this can possibly be a driver problem.
Gerry0 -
Bradley, et al.....
Just wanted you to see how other programs behave on the same monitor I'm having trouble with Logos 10 on. This is a section of my Thunderbird mail app.The matter is very simple: The L10 UI interface has very poor contrasts (at least in light mode) which results in panes not having a proper border, the top toolbar area not being well distinguished from the panes' area, etc. This was different - and much better ! - in L9.
This has nothing to do with monitors or graphics cards, it has to do with the UI design folks forgetting to do what was supposed to have been done during end of beta testing phase ... the problem was pointed out during beta testing, was acknowledged, and promised to be changed when UI items were finalized before release. Unfortunately, this was not done ...
Instead users now have the problem of distinguishing panes, side lines, borders, etc. ... I have the same problem on my fairly new HP desktop (Win 10). The fix is in implementing darker and more distinguishable borders, backgrounds, etc.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Hmmmm, when I post my screen shot here it doesn't seem to be a problem. However on my computer, the gray areas aren't there!!
That's very odd; a screenshot should show exactly how Logos 10 is displaying on your screen.
Could you take a photo of your monitor (with a mobile phone) and upload it, if that shows the problem you're describing?
I have seen this exact problem before, where the gray ares in v10 are not visible at all, but in screenshots they do appear, at least when on other monitors.
In the case that I saw, it was a user who had an Asus laptop. Asus has an app called Armoury Crate which includes different color modes in the tab "GameVisual". The user had selected a color mode that was not default. Once they switched back to the default mode, everything started working correctly again.
So, my guess would be this is a similar situation. The problem isn't your video card, but is a setting somewhere. If you have an Asus machine, check out the ArmouryCrate app. Otherwise, see if you have a similar app that might have color settings.
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No borders ... very little contrast in light colors (and I'm already using a different color for resource background).
L9 had a 1px border around panes and tabs, etc which was MUCH better and which was supposed to be fixed for L10 release. It just never happened. Now, in particular older users with eye sight difficulties might have problems recognizing the pane borders and have difficulty placing the mouse cursor on pane sides to resize the panes ....Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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The matter is very simple: The L10 UI interface has very poor contrasts (at least in light mode) which results in panes not having a proper border, the top toolbar area not being well distinguished from the panes' area, etc. This was different - and much better ! - in L9.
This has nothing to do with monitors or graphics cards, it has to do with the UI design folks forgetting to do what was supposed to have been done during end of beta testing phase ... the problem was pointed out during beta testing, was acknowledged, and promised to be changed when UI items were finalized before release. Unfortunately, this was not done ...
Instead users now have the problem of distinguishing panes, side lines, borders, etc. ... I have the same problem on my fairly new HP desktop (Win 10). The fix is in implementing darker and more distinguishable borders, backgrounds, etc.
Wolfgang, have you considered being hired to replace the present design head? Pay is decent. You can try things that don't make sense. Design for the market you don't sell to. And receive accolades for 'beuticious' artwork that's non-functional. Form over function can be your motto! (Referring to present company in Bellingham).
Daily it's a battle with the UI. You're right on the pane boundaries ... I was joking about that yesterday. On the Mac (at least mine), trying to not hit the scrollbar, while adjusting the pane is a big game. And how many 'Shades of Grey' are possible? They probably have a color wheel with no colors.
I could go on.
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This is getting a skosche out of hand. First of all, the present release of Logos 10 is SR2 (lower left of your Logos screen). It's been SR2 for about a week. Maybe we should hold off till it changes to SR3.
As far as how many shades of gray are there? Essentially 255. Ask Adobe.
As to my computer. It's not an Asus, not an HP. It was built to my specs as a gaming computer by a shop I trust. Why a gaming computer you ask? I use Photoshop a lot and I wanted the fastest computer I could afford. After about eight years I'm still proud of my computer. Examples of its products?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gswetsky
Those photos were edited on the same monitor I use for Logos.
Good day and God bless! I'll be back when (if?) SR3 is released.
Gerry0 -
I hate to appear impatient, but here's what I'm dealing with. I never had this problem with Logos before 10 was released.
Hmmmm, when I post my screen shot here it doesn't seem to be a problem. However on my computer, the gray areas aren't there!!If the problem doesn't occur with the screenshot, it's likely to be a problem caused by your Windows color profile or gamma settings.
You may find that calibrating your monitor will help you.
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Mark,
#1. It was okay until L10. It works fine on all other programs.
#2. I have two monitors. Though they don't behave exactly the same with L10 it's close.
Thanks anyhow,
GerryI understand your point, Gerry, but the fact that it shows when you post in the forums indicates that the problem is on your setup. What your experience seems to indicate is that Logos 10 made a change either in the shades or in the assumptions as to what the defaults are that combined with your specific setup creates a serious problem. If you can figure out how to make it acceptable on your setup, Faithlife will have a solid clue as to what the problem might be. Unless they happen to have a computer set up that exhibits the same problem, other than you identifying a "solution" they have very little to go on.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark,
You may find that calibrating your monitor will help you.
Mark,
what does this problem have to do with monitor calibrating, computer setup, etc ???
One comment and then I promise to keep my big trap shut as so many of my friends have suggested. Perhaps it's my age (84), but I'd really like to see very narrow vertical and horizontal lines on my page separating the various boxes and columns. Sometimes I find myself getting lost thinking my cursor is in my Bible when It's not, etcetera.The problem is overall a matter of lacking borders and contrast between backgrounds (such as grey areas) and panes, etc.
Is this not rather plainly a UI design problem? The 1px darker borders of panes, etc that provided a clear UI in L9 have been removed in L10? See my above post with screenshot from my L10 installation ... I have the very same problem, and I would think everyone else does too ... or can someone post a screenshot where panes, etc. have easily visible 1px borders?
The matter was actually raised before L10 release, and the comment at the time was that the final UI design would solve this ... now we see that it wasn't solved.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Gerry, here is one of the predefined layouts with border lines. Whether or not there is enough contrast depends on my eyes and my monitor settings. Where I have problems with contrast is with some of the preview/selection popups.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Gerry, here is one of the predefined layouts with border lines.
I would say that none of the panes or the tabs have a distinct border, there is a tiny bit of contrast between window background and panes so that a small free space between panes or tabs appears as a "border".
Whether or not there is enough contrast depends on my eyes and my monitor settings. ...
Sure ... strangely though, my eyes and my monitor got bad over night ?? While running L9, my eyes and my monitor were just fine. While running L9 and V10 beta alongside each other, my eyes and monitor switched from good to bad and back, etc. ???
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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I am in my 30's and I absolutely agree that L9 was better than L10 in this respect, so it's not just the older guys.
Though I can see a slightly darker gray line when I look directly at it, it is still a lot harder to see and more frustrating to have to deal with than with L9. I have to look closely at it, as opposed to L9 where I didn't even have to think about it. It was just intuitive. 0 -
Sort of related. Last night, I was adjusting my little icons at the top menu. Right-clicked to see the choices. You can just barely see which icon is currently in use. Just barely. Now, (1) I know which is in use, and (2) no big deal (this example). But (3) what's the point of changing it?
'Why' does the designer bring the contrast down so far, as to place in question, why highlight it in the first place. I still argue, FL's lost its market-focus, relative to the UI. Artsy-playing.
"Where's Waldo":
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So there you are! Logos says the contrast is fine and that's apparently the way it's going to stay. Users say it's much worse than L9 was. Logos posts screen shots displaying the very thing we're arguing about and they say it's normal. Nothing has changed.
Arguing the point is a waste of my time! Thanks for listening Logos.
God bless,
Gerry0 -
I am confused. Although I am older than Gerald, I dee very clear definition between adjacent panels/windows on both my main display and the seconsey one. It this a difference between Windows and the Mac OS? Apple displays and others?
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I am confused. Although I am older than Gerald, I dee very clear definition between adjacent panels/windows on both my main display and the seconsey one. It this a difference between Windows and the Mac OS? Apple displays and others?
Jack,
I would not call the areas in red from above screenshot as "clear definition between adjacent panels ... especially when compared to how this was designed in L9 (panel had a clear border, etc.)Perhaps this is different from how it displays on your displays?
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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