Comment Re:Logos 10
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
1. the space between the lines (border) is the background color
NO ... there are two panes with a border line each ..
[quote]
2. the space between the lines (border) is the border color essentially creating a single thick line
NO ... the window background is not the border color, and there is no "essentially creating a single thick line .. there is only the background between two panes that do not have borders.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Alternative vocabulary should not cause disagreement. My description is specifically intended to point to the perceptual difference between the two which I believe explains your problem with the design. Without a common understanding of the problem, a fix is not possible. I will bow out as my attempt to put your issue into terms useful for a fix has clearly failed. I'm sorry as I genuinely believe you have a legitimate concern.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Does this help?
Above is a blown up section of my Logos 10 screen. You can maybe see two areas marked with gray. Not nearly sufficiently dark when you look at it in normal size..
Above is a gradient I created in Photoshop on the same monitor. It goes from white to black. Do you see anything wrong with it?
In closing let me quote myself one more time -> It worked in L9, why doesn't it work in L10?
Gerry0 -
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
You may find that calibrating your monitor will help you.
Mark,
what does this problem have to do with monitor calibrating, computer setup, etc ???
As someone who can recreate what you experience at will, I can say that this has (almost) everything to do with monitor calibration.
I've seen the issue you are experiencing, and have even recreated it on my own laptop. The result is that there is literally no difference between the some of the shades of gray that Logos uses. It is extremely disagreeable, and a big problem. It makes the software almost unusable. It is also a problem that didn't exist in Logos 9.
That being said, the simplest solution is in fact to calibrate your monitor. And that can happen in one of two ways that I know of. The first is the link that Mark shared, which offers general Windows calibration tools. Using just those tools, especially the gamma tool, I can miscalibrate my monitor at will to recreate the exact problem you experience. And, using just those tools, I have fixed this issue for someone else who was experiencing it.
The other way this can happen is through the monitor calibration that AMD and NVidia offer in their software (or through some other software that calibrates the monitor). Either way, the cause of the problem (a miscalibrated monitor) is similar.
The other possible solution for this is that Faithlife could adjust the colors so that on miscalibrated monitors this issue doesn't exist anymore in v10. That was the case in v9, and it might be worthwhile to do it in v10 as well.
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MJ. Smith said:
Alternative vocabulary should not cause disagreement. My description is specifically intended to point to the perceptual difference between the two which I believe explains your problem with the design.
It is not a matter of alternative vocabulary or personal perceptual difference. It is a very simple matter of the simple fact that in L9 boxes had a hairline border fo a contrasting color, where as in L10 the boxes have no such hairline border at all or a border of a color non-distinguishable from the background of the boxes.
The resulting problem is not a matter of viewer's different perceptions, but of the difference in programming of the UI boxes in L9 and L10.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Fr Devin Roza said:
As someone who can recreate what you experience at will, I can say that this has (almost) everything to do with monitor calibration.
I've seen the issue you are experiencing, and have even recreated it on my own laptop.
I have no clue what there is to recreate on different computers ... the problem exists without any changes having been made to a monitor. The problem is in different programming of the UI in L9 and L10.
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The result is that there is literally no difference between the some of the shades of gray that Logos uses.
Yes, there is no difference in the shades of grey being used for backgrounds! That was never the problem in the first place; the difference is in the use of a hairline darker border for panes, etc. in the L9 UI, and the lack of such border in L10 UI.
[quote]
It is extremely disagreeable, and a big problem. It makes the software almost unusable. It is also a problem that didn't exist in Logos 9.
Exactly, and that proves that the problem has nothing to do with anyone's hardware (computer, video card, monitor).
[quote]
That being said, the simplest solution is in fact to calibrate your monitor. And that can happen in one of two ways that I know of. The first is the link that Mark shared, which offers general Windows calibration tools. Using just those tools, especially the gamma tool, I can miscalibrate my monitor at will to recreate the exact problem you experience. And, using just those tools, I have fixed this issue for someone else who was experiencing it.
The other way this can happen is through the monitor calibration that AMD and NVidia offer in their software (or through some other software that calibrates the monitor). Either way, the cause of the problem (a miscalibrated monitor) is similar.
See above ... calibrating your hardware components is NOT the issue, as a matter of fact you then might have to re-calibrate next time you call up another software.
[quote]
The other possible solution for this is that Faithlife could adjust the colors so that on miscalibrated monitors this issue doesn't exist anymore in v10. That was the case in v9, and it might be worthwhile to do it in v10 as well.
Excuse me, but are you now claiming that my monitor is "miscalibrated" ???
FL did not program a UI for miscalibrated monitors (in the case of L9), nor did FL program a UI for well calibrated monitors. Their UI designer decided to delete certain hairline borders of certain elements (such as panes) in the L10 UI ! And this issue of missing distinctive borders was raised during bete testing phase and was acknowledged and supposedly would not exist in release ...yet, apparently nothing was done about it.
And now, suggestions are made here for users who encounter problems with the poor UI design are encouraged to calibrate their monitors ... well, so be it then. Happy calibrating (in place of celebrating) [:(]
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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For heaven's sake! Don't you people EVER listen?
I went from Logos 9 to Logos 10! That's ALL I did! The display was working FINE with Logos 9! When I brought up Logos 10, the gray areas were no longer discernable! How on Earth can this have anything to do with monitors suddenly going out of calibration?
Gentlemen, I started this thread. It's about the gray areas in Logos display no longer being dark enough to be seen clearly in L10! If you want to discuss the whys and wherefores of color monitors, I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd go start your own thread!
Respectfully,
Gerry0 -
Gerald P. Swetsky said:
I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd go start your own thread!
Now, Gerry. This is a 'forum'. OP's start the conversation, but the thread often goes off-target. People are people. The proverbial Logos coffee table.
And your problem (which I agree with) has multiple facets. For me, in addition to trying to figure the tab-bar with multiple panels in-line (boundaries removed), there's the mouse popup for moving borders, which is are now under the scrollbars (Mac M1; factory-settings).
I suspect your points impact more than just view-ability (and use-ability). L10 changes weren't executed well. Need fixing.
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Gerald P. Swetsky said:
How on Earth can this have anything to do with monitors suddenly going out of calibration?
It's not that the monitors calibration has changed. It almost certainly hasn't. It's that on certain calibrations, v10's grays become indistinguishable.
As you say, on v9, this was not an issue.
If it's not helpful for you to know that I've seen this issue you describe on two different computers and been able to fix it, fine. But hopefully at least it's relevant to the developers and possibly for others who may be experiencing this issue.
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Okay, I sort of took your suggestions and swapped my monitors; not an easy task when you're dealing with this setup. The monitor where I now load L10 shows an improvement and it is easier to see where I am in the program.
The improvement is minimal, however, and I still hope Logos will do something to make the grays more distinguishable on L10!!Arigato,
Gerry0
