Comment Re:Logos 10
Comments
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I do not know if there is a difference due to a variation between Windows or Mac OS. Perhaps it is just a misunderstanding of the problem. The gray color that separates the windows in the layout may be the same in both L9 and L10, but there is a distinct difference because L9 used a darker borderline between windows that made them easier to differentiate. This difference does not appear to have anything to do with monitor settings. Is there a way to toggle on this borderline?I
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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I do not know if there is a difference due to a variation between Windows or Mac OS. Perhaps it is just a misunderstanding of the problem. The gray color that separates the windows in the layout may be the same in both L9 and L10, but there is a distinct difference because L9 used a darker borderline between windows that made them easier to differentiate. This difference does not appear to have anything to do with monitor settings. Is there a way to toggle on this borderline?
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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I do not know if there is a difference due to a variation between Windows or Mac OS. Perhaps it is just a misunderstanding of the problem. The gray color that separates the windows in the layout may be the same in both L9 and L10, but there is a distinct difference because L9 used a darker borderline between windows that made them easier to differentiate. This difference does not appear to have anything to do with monitor settings. Is there a way to toggle on this borderline?
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Sure ... strangely though, my eyes and my monitor got bad over night ?? While running L9, my eyes and my monitor were just fine. While running L9 and V10 beta alongside each other, my eyes and monitor switched from good to bad and back, etc. ???
Gerry, please stay patient. We understand that there is a problem that affects some people and not others. Unfortunately, it is not obvious what the common thread is to identify what causes the problem and, therefore, how to fix it. I am wracking my brain for additional possibilities, but the fact that my screen shot has clear borders when I see it on a PC but not for you on iOS may be a clue, but it still may be in the monitor rather than the OS.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Border differences:
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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I have tried to post a picture of the difference, but the forum system thinks it is spam.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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... The gray color that separates the windows in the layout may be the same in both L9 and L10, but there is a distinct difference because L9 used a darker borderline between windows that made them easier to differentiate. This difference does not appear to have anything to do with monitor settings. Is there a way to toggle on this borderline?
This is exactly what some of us have been talking about ... unfortunately I do not have L9 on my PC anymore so I could not provide screenshot of the notable and distinct difference. For some reaason, in the email notification of your post, a screenshot was included which now seems to be missing here in the actual forum post ...
As far as I know, there is no possibility for users to toggle borderlines off or on...Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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I've tried to post a pic of the difference, but the forum system will not let me.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Since I recently complained about color changes when, in fact, it was a matter of perception based on the size of the patch of the color, I wonder if the difference isn't that L9 had the background color between the two borders while L10 fills the space with the line color.?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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This is exactly what some of us have been talking about ... unfortunately I do not have L9 on my PC anymore so I could not provide screenshot of the notable and distinct difference.
I just wonder if the screenshots in this article https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016600052-Context-Menu (not yet updated to Logos 10) are helpful.
I think it is demonstrating the differences in L9 that are being discussed although I admit I'm struggling to see the difference (but that may be an issue at my end)
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Perhaps this is different from how it displays on your displays?
If the App toolbar is on top you get a darker preponderance of grey together with the tabs and it looks to be top heavy and "threatening" with the additional black icons for Docs, Guides and Tools. The vertical tab divider appears diffuse as opposed to "drawn" (L9). If the dominant grey was one shade lighter, the overall appearance would be improved and the tab divider may become clearer (especially if it was taller).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I want to apologize for all the extra posts. I attempted to edit my post and suddenly my posts did not want to show up. Thanks, Wolfgang for posting my picture when it wouldn't show on my post. I am glad to say that everything seems to be working correctly now.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Perhaps this is different from how it displays on your displays?
Here is what I see. The separations are quite clear, even between the sidebar and the resource pane.
This is a Multi Resource layout. Don't know if that makes a difference.
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It's admittedly hard to keep up with this post, exactly 'where' the UI issue is. It seems clear, it's layout-dependent (meaning, necessarily varies by user). In my layout, I have to squint to see the panel 'boundaries' (typically to move them; I have a tight layout).
And in the example below, extra squinting for the run-on tab bar, from panel to panel. Granted, I use small panels.
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Here is what I see. The separations are quite clear, even between the sidebar and the resource pane.
This is a Multi Resource layout. Don't know if that makes a difference.
I would not call this "quite clear", even though it is a bit easier perhaps because all resources are inside one pane. But note, the resource pane has no border, the distinction between the pane and the sidebar is only in the small contrast between the background colors of sidebar and resource pane. What makes this section not too bad is the fact that you have fairly small columns with a different color scrollbar as well as some text markings that help recognize and distinguish the columns.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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It appears to me that what you can see easily is background line background line background i.e. two distinct lines; what you have visual problems with is background line line-color line background. Or put another way a bar of a different shade is more difficult to see than lines against a common background. Or put yet another way, the distinction used between columns in a multi-view pane is what you would like to see used between panes.
That makes sense as a suggestion. What I would then need to think through is how to distinguish panels within a pane from separate panes. Sorry it took me so long to identify the issue.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It appears to me that what you can see easily is background line background line background i.e. two distinct lines; what you have visual problems with is background line line-color line background. Or put another way a bar of a different shade is more difficult to see than lines against a common background. Or put yet another way, the distinction used between columns in a multi-view pane is what you would like to see used between panes.
Regarding borders between panes, etc ...what is the difference between L9 and L10 in the provided combined illustrative screenshot ?
Or is there no difference and it's all just in my (and a few others'?) imagination ?
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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1. the space between the lines (border) is the background color
2. the space between the lines (border) is the border color essentially creating a single thick line
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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1. the space between the lines (border) is the background color
NO ... there are two panes with a border line each ..
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2. the space between the lines (border) is the border color essentially creating a single thick line
NO ... the window background is not the border color, and there is no "essentially creating a single thick line .. there is only the background between two panes that do not have borders.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Alternative vocabulary should not cause disagreement. My description is specifically intended to point to the perceptual difference between the two which I believe explains your problem with the design. Without a common understanding of the problem, a fix is not possible. I will bow out as my attempt to put your issue into terms useful for a fix has clearly failed. I'm sorry as I genuinely believe you have a legitimate concern.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Does this help?
Above is a blown up section of my Logos 10 screen. You can maybe see two areas marked with gray. Not nearly sufficiently dark when you look at it in normal size..
Above is a gradient I created in Photoshop on the same monitor. It goes from white to black. Do you see anything wrong with it?
In closing let me quote myself one more time -> It worked in L9, why doesn't it work in L10?
Gerry0 -
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You may find that calibrating your monitor will help you.
Mark,
what does this problem have to do with monitor calibrating, computer setup, etc ???
As someone who can recreate what you experience at will, I can say that this has (almost) everything to do with monitor calibration.
I've seen the issue you are experiencing, and have even recreated it on my own laptop. The result is that there is literally no difference between the some of the shades of gray that Logos uses. It is extremely disagreeable, and a big problem. It makes the software almost unusable. It is also a problem that didn't exist in Logos 9.
That being said, the simplest solution is in fact to calibrate your monitor. And that can happen in one of two ways that I know of. The first is the link that Mark shared, which offers general Windows calibration tools. Using just those tools, especially the gamma tool, I can miscalibrate my monitor at will to recreate the exact problem you experience. And, using just those tools, I have fixed this issue for someone else who was experiencing it.
The other way this can happen is through the monitor calibration that AMD and NVidia offer in their software (or through some other software that calibrates the monitor). Either way, the cause of the problem (a miscalibrated monitor) is similar.
The other possible solution for this is that Faithlife could adjust the colors so that on miscalibrated monitors this issue doesn't exist anymore in v10. That was the case in v9, and it might be worthwhile to do it in v10 as well.
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Alternative vocabulary should not cause disagreement. My description is specifically intended to point to the perceptual difference between the two which I believe explains your problem with the design.
It is not a matter of alternative vocabulary or personal perceptual difference. It is a very simple matter of the simple fact that in L9 boxes had a hairline border fo a contrasting color, where as in L10 the boxes have no such hairline border at all or a border of a color non-distinguishable from the background of the boxes.
The resulting problem is not a matter of viewer's different perceptions, but of the difference in programming of the UI boxes in L9 and L10.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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As someone who can recreate what you experience at will, I can say that this has (almost) everything to do with monitor calibration.
I've seen the issue you are experiencing, and have even recreated it on my own laptop.
I have no clue what there is to recreate on different computers ... the problem exists without any changes having been made to a monitor. The problem is in different programming of the UI in L9 and L10.
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The result is that there is literally no difference between the some of the shades of gray that Logos uses.
Yes, there is no difference in the shades of grey being used for backgrounds! That was never the problem in the first place; the difference is in the use of a hairline darker border for panes, etc. in the L9 UI, and the lack of such border in L10 UI.
[quote]
It is extremely disagreeable, and a big problem. It makes the software almost unusable. It is also a problem that didn't exist in Logos 9.
Exactly, and that proves that the problem has nothing to do with anyone's hardware (computer, video card, monitor).
[quote]
That being said, the simplest solution is in fact to calibrate your monitor. And that can happen in one of two ways that I know of. The first is the link that Mark shared, which offers general Windows calibration tools. Using just those tools, especially the gamma tool, I can miscalibrate my monitor at will to recreate the exact problem you experience. And, using just those tools, I have fixed this issue for someone else who was experiencing it.
The other way this can happen is through the monitor calibration that AMD and NVidia offer in their software (or through some other software that calibrates the monitor). Either way, the cause of the problem (a miscalibrated monitor) is similar.
See above ... calibrating your hardware components is NOT the issue, as a matter of fact you then might have to re-calibrate next time you call up another software.
[quote]
The other possible solution for this is that Faithlife could adjust the colors so that on miscalibrated monitors this issue doesn't exist anymore in v10. That was the case in v9, and it might be worthwhile to do it in v10 as well.
Excuse me, but are you now claiming that my monitor is "miscalibrated" ???
FL did not program a UI for miscalibrated monitors (in the case of L9), nor did FL program a UI for well calibrated monitors. Their UI designer decided to delete certain hairline borders of certain elements (such as panes) in the L10 UI ! And this issue of missing distinctive borders was raised during bete testing phase and was acknowledged and supposedly would not exist in release ...yet, apparently nothing was done about it.
And now, suggestions are made here for users who encounter problems with the poor UI design are encouraged to calibrate their monitors ... well, so be it then. Happy calibrating (in place of celebrating) [:(]
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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For heaven's sake! Don't you people EVER listen?
I went from Logos 9 to Logos 10! That's ALL I did! The display was working FINE with Logos 9! When I brought up Logos 10, the gray areas were no longer discernable! How on Earth can this have anything to do with monitors suddenly going out of calibration?
Gentlemen, I started this thread. It's about the gray areas in Logos display no longer being dark enough to be seen clearly in L10! If you want to discuss the whys and wherefores of color monitors, I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd go start your own thread!
Respectfully,
Gerry0 -
I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd go start your own thread!
Now, Gerry. This is a 'forum'. OP's start the conversation, but the thread often goes off-target. People are people. The proverbial Logos coffee table.
And your problem (which I agree with) has multiple facets. For me, in addition to trying to figure the tab-bar with multiple panels in-line (boundaries removed), there's the mouse popup for moving borders, which is are now under the scrollbars (Mac M1; factory-settings).
I suspect your points impact more than just view-ability (and use-ability). L10 changes weren't executed well. Need fixing.
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How on Earth can this have anything to do with monitors suddenly going out of calibration?
It's not that the monitors calibration has changed. It almost certainly hasn't. It's that on certain calibrations, v10's grays become indistinguishable.
As you say, on v9, this was not an issue.
If it's not helpful for you to know that I've seen this issue you describe on two different computers and been able to fix it, fine. But hopefully at least it's relevant to the developers and possibly for others who may be experiencing this issue.
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