Bible Knowledge Commentary: Where is It?
Comments
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Remember our Logos 4 purchase did not promise mobile access to all the resources in our licensed library.
But Logos did promise access to all the resources they promised us we would have access to. You can't go back on that, especially for the people who use Logos primarily on an iPad or iPhone.
I can only begin to image the frustation and disappointment for those who primarily use a mobile platform, but I'm not sure Logoshave broken a promise. While they were allowed to give mobile access to this resource they did. I don't believe they promised that once a resource was accessible via mobile access it would be accessible for ever and then some. If any 'promises' have been broken it is by the publisher. Based on our experiences with past technology (paper) these sort of issues are not familar to us and not expected in terms of the way we are treated by publishers but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.
Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.
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but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.
Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.
If the President of the United States deems necessary, he has the authority to suspend internet access for 4 months in the interest of "national security." That would result in unimaginable consequences.
Also, an unrelated party (neither Logos nor their publishing partners) could attain a sweeping court judgment that could affect how our resources are marketed and accessed in the online world. That is a real possibility with activist judges who create law as they go along. There is little case law to guide them at this point.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.
Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.
If the President of the United States deems necessary, he has the authority to suspend internet access for 4 months in the interest of "national security." That would result in unimaginable consequences.
Also, an unrelated party (neither Logos nor their publishing partners) could attain a sweeping court judgment that could affect how our resources are marketed and accessed in the online world. That is a real possibility with activist judges who create law as they go along. There is little case law to guide them at this point.
I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.
http://www.logos.com/iphone/terms
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I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.
as we have seen with Facebook, and countless others, just because the terms are clear doesn't mean that they are right. Just sayin'
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I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.
as we have seen with Facebook, and countless others, just because the terms are clear doesn't mean that they are right. Just sayin'
As a customer I totally agree with you, but at the same time they should not be unexpected, Logos has to have an out if a publisher pulls the plug. Logos gains nothing and would take no pleasure in having to 'activate' such an out.
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As a customer I totally agree with you, but at the same time they should not be unexpected, Logos has to have an out if a publisher pulls the plug. Logos gains nothing and would take no pleasure in having to 'activate' such an out.
Agreed, Logos would not just randomly try to pull resources, that is not their business, they are a provider, not a denier of resources, so to speak. Perhaps for their part they should have negotiated stronger terms with publishers so they could not pull out even if they wanted to, the "terms" as far as the negative aspects go seem to sit with the customers or end users, not with the publishers. The publishers should want to get their resources into a mobile platform (but many seem to be following the Beatles example), but if they do, Logos should have some kind of terms, agreement, contract, whatever that states they can not pull the resource once added. Logic seems to be out the window in some of these cases and all the power seems to reside with the publisher.
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As a customer I totally agree with you, but at the same time they should not be unexpected, Logos has to have an out if a publisher pulls the plug. Logos gains nothing and would take no pleasure in having to 'activate' such an out.
Agreed, Logos would not just randomly try to pull resources, that is not their business, they are a provider, not a denier of resources, so to speak. Perhaps for their part they should have negotiated stronger terms with publishers so they could not pull out even if they wanted to, the "terms" as far as the negative aspects go seem to sit with the customers or end users, not with the publishers. The publishers should want to get their resources into a mobile platform (but many seem to be following the Beatles example), but if they do, Logos should have some kind of terms, agreement, contract, whatever that states they can not pull the resource once added. Logic seems to be out the window in some of these cases and all the power seems to reside with the publisher.
You are right Scott. But what can we do about it? That's a reality of the electronic publishing IMHO.
Bohuslav
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You are right Scott. But what can we do about it? That's a reality of the electronic publishing IMHO.
well that was sort of my point, there isn't much we can do other than speak with our wallets, but ultimately progress into a growing market like digital books will override even that... so... yes, I guess that is just the reality of electronic publishing.
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but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.
Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.
If the President of the United States deems necessary, he has the authority to suspend internet access for 4 months in the interest of "national security." That would result in unimaginable consequences.
Also, an unrelated party (neither Logos nor their publishing partners) could attain a sweeping court judgment that could affect how our resources are marketed and accessed in the online world. That is a real possibility with activist judges who create law as they go along. There is little case law to guide them at this point.
I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.
Interesting. If Logos tells us that they can take any books off the iPhone at any time, I think they could be in line for a lawsuit. Still, Logos should refund any books that they have taken off the iPhone. It might be their right to do this, but it is my right to get reimbursed.
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Interesting. If Logos tells us that they can take any books off the iPhone at any time, I think they could be in line for a lawsuit. Still, Logos should refund any books that they have taken off the iPhone. It might be their right to do this, but it is my right to get reimbursed.
as far as I can tell, no one is being charge for the access to their library on their iPhone/iPad, it is included as "free" with your base package. They probably included it for "free' so when issues like this came up they could say there isn't anything to refund, because technically there isn't. Still doesn't make it right.
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Interesting. If Logos tells us that they can take any books off the iPhone at any time, I think they could be in line for a lawsuit. Still, Logos should refund any books that they have taken off the iPhone. It might be their right to do this, but it is my right to get reimbursed.
as far as I can tell, no one is being charge for the access to their library on their iPhone/iPad, it is included as "free" with your base package. They probably included it for "free' so when issues like this came up they could say there isn't anything to refund, because technically there isn't. Still doesn't make it right.
Again, I am speaking for a small number of people who use Logos primarily/only on their iPhone/iPad.
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It appears to be back!
Yes, it is back! Great job Logos [Y]
Bohuslav
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I agree. I was VERY glad to see it back a few days ago and was hoping it wasn't a glitch.
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I may be mistaken, but it appeared to me that the product disappeared and then later, a new revision reappeared. So maybe they jerked it off the list, so they could provide something better!
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Am I missing something? Just yesterday or the other day I had BKC for mobile devices, now it seems to be missing again? What is going on here?
Of course I could be blind after a long day!
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Missing again for me too. Can someone please tell us what's going on?
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It appears to be back!
Now you see it. Now you don't....
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There was a miscommunication internally. The publisher did not grant permission for use on the iPhone.
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I sent the following request to David C. Cook:
Resource
Need
The following comments were sent via the
Feedback form on Saturday, September 18, 2010 at 7:14 AM:
(Customer was on http://www.davidccook.com/index.cfm
at the time.)
Richard Stimson , a 45-54-year-old Male
from the 32923 area has the following resource need:
Specific Resource Need:
I have paid for two copies of
BKC. One on Logos and one on Olivetree. Now on my iPad I can not use either. I need you to give
permission for this. This whole experience has caused me not to trust digital
books. Can you help me. You
requested we NOT send information on promotions and new product announcements
to this e-mail address.
They responded with this statement:
From: Karen
Athen
Sent: Monday, September 20,
2010 12:44 PM
To: Sheila Frey
Subject: Re: Website - Resource NeedWe don’t
have digital files for this title. He should check with Olive Tree, a lot of
eBook sales avenues will give you a new one based on your new device. I am
guessing that he use to use a different eReader. He needs to make sure that he
tell the company he is buying from what device he has to insure that he gets
the correct format.
All I have is a pdf and it is not interactive or reflowable.
On 9/20/10 12:38 PM, "Sheila Frey" <Sheila.Frey@davidccook.com>
wrote:Dear
Karen,
I am stuck with this one. Any thoughts?
Respectfully,
Sheila Frey
Permissions/ArchivesWhich made no sense to me so I wrote back:
Hi Ms. Frey:
I do not understand Ms. Athen's
statement, "We don’t have
digital files for this title." I have Bible Knowledge Commentary
(BKC) on my computer with Logos Bible Software and then on my Palm with Olivetree.
So the digital files (as I understand the term) does exists.It appears that David C. Cook is putting a
road block in the way. As a customer I do not understand this and feel
that the information given to you is less than honest. Please educate me
if I am mistaken.Please consider writing Ms Frey yourself at Sheila.Frey@davidccook.com
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Here is the response:
Dear Mr. Stimson,I understand your frustration. With today's
technology, vocabulary is sometimes used interchangeably when, in actuality,
terms may refer to different technology.As I understand it, when our files are created,
they are in an electronic form to go to the presses and that's how they are
saved. We have contracts with companies (i.e. Logos, Olivetree) who convert
these files to be used with their own readers or equipment. For example,
Amazon.com converts files to be used on Kindle; these files can only be read by
Kindle and won't work on any other reader. So while we do indeed have electronic
files, they are not meant for public consumption but for the presses. The
situation today reminds me of when Apple and PC programs were not
interchangeable and only with consumer frustration was that changed. Today, X
Box games cannot be played on wii or Play Station, so until consumers pressure
companies to make them compatible, they won't be.We are a not-for-profit publisher primarily
supplying paper products although we are moving to more electronic capability.
This transition to electronic publishing can be frustrating for consumers and
I'm sorry about that.Back to your request,; I do not know what iPad
reads. If you can find that information and it will read a pdf. (which is what
we save our electronic files as), please let me know.Respectfully,Sheila FreyPermissions CoordinatorDavid C. Cook0 -
I really don't understand why this is so hard for the Cook people to understand. You have to actually get a hold of someone who actually understands the question, which would seem to be no one. The only person I have found to know what I was talking about, and give me an actual answer was the person running their Twitter account, to which he said "we are not offering it on the mobile platform" and that was it.
The fact that Shelia with David C. Cook asks about the file format just shows (with all do respect to Shelia) that she has no idea what you are talking about. It is Logo's format, their app, and obviously this book has been produced for the mobile version, we all had it at one point.
I just find it really hard to believe that there isn't someone over at David C. Cook who can understand the question. Someone does, because someone told Logo's they couldn't use it on the mobile platform.
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There was a miscommunication internally. The publisher did not grant permission for use on the iPhone.
Are you able to distinguish to us whether it was a statement like "we have considered your request and the answer is no" or simply no reply yet but someone took something else as a yes.
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Are you able to distinguish to us whether it was a statement like "we have considered your request and the answer is no" or simply no reply yet but someone took something else as a yes.
I don't have that information right now but I will post here when I do.
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I have paid for two copies of
BKC. One on Logos and one on Olivetree. Now on my iPad I can not use eitherI know this is off-topic, but your OliveTree version should still work. At least, it's still being marketed on Olivetree's website.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark:
You would think it would work on the iPhone in Olivetree if it worked on the Palm, but here is a whole conversation on the Olivetree Forums just like ours:
http://www.olivetreeforum.com/ot_forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2360
I got this e-mail from David C. Cook (Sheila) today, and it is hopeful (I really hope others will e-mail her):
From: Sheila Frey
[mailto:Sheila.Frey@davidccook.com]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:53 AM
To: rstimson@specialgatherings.com
Subject: RE: Website - Resource NeedThank you for checking on this. I have set e-mails trying to find
out what happened. I'll gladly grant permission if I can find out what happened
and why!Sheila Frey
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I received a similar reply from Sheila when I emailed her as well, she said she was going to look into the matter?
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Well I think this sheds a little light on what happened from the publishers point of view... of course this still means that the publisher is the one who is keeping the BKC from being used on the mobile platform. Still doesn't make any sense to me why they would allow it in a digital form for Logos to use but not on the mobile platform.
Anyway, this is the email I received from the publisher.
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dddfrom 
Sheila Frey <Sheila.Frey@davidccook.com>sender-time Sent at 7:57 PM (GMT-06:00). Current time there: 6:56 AM.to Scott Fillmer <scott.fillmer@gmail.com>cc "specialgathering@yahoo.com" <specialgathering@yahoo.com>,Michelle Webb <Michelle.Webb@davidccook.com>date Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 7:57 PMsubject RE: Bible Knowledge Commentary on Logos Mobile PlatformThank you for your interest and your comments concerning the Bible Knowledge Commentary in a mobile platform.
After exhaustive research, I found that Olive Tree and Logos were using the above product without permission. Olive Tree had requested permission but was denied because our company is discussing developing that platform in house; Logos never requested permission. I'm sorry you were mislead and were able to use the product for a only short time, although it was never legally available.
Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention.
Respectfully,
Sheila Frey
Permissions CoordinatorDavid C. Cook
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If you can use your iPhone to get a book on biblica.com, you should be able to use that same phone using the Logos app. If David C. Cook thinks I am going to pay for any book on their mobile device that I have already paid for with Logos they are crazy. Why would anyone even want to buy a book through David C. Cook's up and coming mobile device? The Logos app can do anything it does and it can be used on the computer. The only thing I can think of is that David C. Cook doesn't want to split profits with Logos.
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David C . Cook should look to Zondervan if they want to see what happens when a publisher becomes a software developer.
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