I just noticed this is formerly coming out shortly in print and Kindle. Any chance Logos will put it out? It cost me next to nothing in the current form years back and I would spring for an update.
+1
👍😁👌
Posted to suggestions.
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/214658.aspx
The NTSK is one of my favorite resources. It is way more useful in Logos than it would be in print or Kindle. I hope they can make this work.
I have seen the author comment here on the forums, so maybe he will drop in with additional information.
I am the author, indeed. The publisher (Nelson) got in touch with me, expressing considerable regret that Nelson let this resource go out of print in 1999.
The new people said they intended to keep it in print from now on, for which I am most grateful.
I offered suggestions for improving the book. They encountered numerous anomalies when the Figure of Speech index was matched by computer with the text. They found problems I had no way back in the day of 5 1/4 " floppy disks to catch. Those are now all corrected.
I kept my own record of reference errors found during my use of the volume since its release in 1992. I spent many weeks last year entering my corrections for Nelson. The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is far more accurate than ever before.The digital edition available in Logos lacks the very important Topic Number Index that is now available in this new edition.
I, too, prefer accessing these cross references using a digital resource. But many individuals--from truck drivers to pastors to teachers in Christian schools--have told me that slowing down by using a printed book and a print Bible provides them a very different Bible study experience. Though cumbersome, I agree, and notice it helps to see more of the context than viewing the briefer content of a pop-up window upon mouse-over does.
How does this differ from the Ultimate Treasury of Scripture Knowledge?
I think he’s confused. The Ultimate is the only newest version, there isn’t a revised version of the one he mentions.
DAL
The Ultimate is the only newest version, there isn’t a revised version of the one he mentions.
Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Treasury-Scripture-Knowledge-easy-use/dp/0310143519/ book cover for $49.99 New does NOT have Ultimate:
Keep Smiling [:)]
How does this differ from the Ultimate Treasury of Scripture Knowledge? I think he’s confused. The Ultimate is the only newest version, there isn’t a revised version of the one he mentions. DAL
He's the author. I'm sure he isn't confused about it.
I don't find any mention of anything called Ultimate Treasury of Scripture Knowledge anywhere online except this thread. There is something called "The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury" (note the different title) referenced in this thread. It's available only for eSword at this time.
How does this differ from the Ultimate Treasury of Scripture Knowledge? I think he’s confused. The Ultimate is the only newest version, there isn’t a revised version of the one he mentions. DAL He's the author. I'm sure he isn't confused about it. I don't find any mention of anything called Ultimate Treasury of Scripture Knowledge anywhere online except this thread. There is something called "The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury" (note the different title) referenced in this thread. It's available only for eSword at this time.
I meant Mab (OP) is confused. Jerome H. Smith is the name of the author (Unless mab is Jerome) 😁 or Jerome is related to MJ (Smith) 😁
As far as I can tell, the Amazon pictured version is supposed to be the latest and since that is coming out, we should be petitioning for that. FL ought to be pursuing what is readily available from the publisher.
There's practically no question people want this one. This is probably the one book, next to a good commentary and dictionary, that opens scripture for us.
Things get weird when they change titles. Very confusing.
As far as I can tell, the Amazon pictured version is supposed to be the latest and since that is coming out, we should be petitioning for that. FL ought to be pursuing what is readily available from the publisher. There's practically no question people want this one. This is probably the one book, next to a good commentary and dictionary, that opens scripture for us. Things get weird when they change titles. Very confusing.
Well, I think the use of the word “Ultimate” in other threads and e-sword had all of us confused 😂
Well, I think the use of the word “Ultimate” in other threads and e-sword had all of us confused
I think your original comment is correct (of course, like everyone, I don't know).
If you read Jerome's description of the revised, (1) print (went out of print 25 years ago), (2) errors found by publisher (corrected), (3) some other edits, and (4) added the topic index. That's not Ultimate.
Also if you look at the page counts (big-A) the new print is slightly smaller.
Actually, the print may be slightly larger! The page size of this new edition is equal to that of the Strong's Concordance, so more text fits on a page. As for errors caught, I think I caught more errors in my own use of this resource than anyone else did! Fortunately, I kept a careful record of them and incorporated the corrections in this new publication.The new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge does not compare to The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury! I would guess that it would take multiple print volumes the size of the present new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge to contain it.
The new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge does not compare to The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury! I would guess that it would take multiple print volumes the size of the present new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge to contain it.
We appreciate your participation on the forum!
Now ... when do we get the Ultimate?!! eSword are great guys, but we deserve it too!
I am sorry, but I am still confused. Please make is clear. What is the difference between TNTOSK and TUCRT? From your comments, one is contained in the other. Is TNTOSK contained in TUCRT, meaning the TUCRT is more complete or the other way around?
The Ultimate is the most complete
Well... guess so's I'll just wait for the Ultimate... shucks!
Thank you. You confirmed what I thought. Which is why I don't understand why anyone cares about the NTSC revised.
Which is why I don't understand why anyone cares about the NTSC revised.
While I have not seen it, I have the same concern about the Ultimate Edition as I have about many of the Logos passage lists ... does one study the Bible more effectively studying a few closely related passages intensively or studying many loosely related passages superficially? But then, I have a very jaundiced view of some steps in some Bible study methods - to me they seem to be designed so that the student can feel they have put an appropriate amount of time and energy into Bible study without fear that they might actually learn something.
So we have TSK 1.0, 2.0 and the 3.0 called the Ultimate? Or just 1.0 and 2.0 called the revised?
In my library, I have TSK, NTSK, people are loudly requesting NTSKR (I am surprised this has not been brought into Logos but they have been on a make-our-own data spree), and some requests for the UTSK
So there’s 4 versions? TSK, NTSK, NTSKR and UTSK 😂😂😂 Just when I thought I had it all figured out 😂😂😂
Which is why I don't understand why anyone cares about the NTSC revised. While I have not seen it, I have the same concern about the Ultimate Edition as I have about many of the Logos passage lists ... does one study the Bible more effectively studying a few closely related passages intensively or studying many loosely related passages superficially?
While I have not seen it, I have the same concern about the Ultimate Edition as I have about many of the Logos passage lists ... does one study the Bible more effectively studying a few closely related passages intensively or studying many loosely related passages superficially?
This seems like a false dichotomy. I think the correct usage of a tool like this is to see a variety of cross references to identify the most important ones and then to study those more deeply.
So there’s 4 versions? TSK
Our TSK is the 14th edition of the text.
I think of it more as the law of diminishing returns. I agree that one should see a variety and identify the ones most fruitful to you to study more deeply. But I also see people using the same study tool over and over because they are comfortable with it, not because it serves their needs. But I know from experience that different groups and different people have different dynamics. I would definitely not claim my experience represents a universal.
Based on his own disclosures and statements, the author reveals information adequate to inform a decision to utilize in ones studies the currently available revision and expansion namely The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: the classic revised and expanded; edition.
The most compelling reason to purchase and or support Logos offering this product is that the previously available version has been out of print for a number of years.
This can therefore rightly be viewed as a new edition. And for those who are in the habit of using this resource for Bible study, I see this as being a vital addition to your available tools to inform your inquiries of scripture.
Responding to something xnman states tongue in cheek and for all others who entertain his notion that because The Ultimate resource is by far the most complete and therefore one should wait for it to come to Logos, I say if you want it, it is available on E-sword. Furthermore, it does not seem that Logos is anxious to add The Ultimate to its catalogue.
Which is why I don't understand why anyone cares about the NTSC revised. While I have not seen it, I have the same concern about the Ultimate Edition as I have about many of the Logos passage lists ... does one study the Bible more effectively studying a few closely related passages intensively or studying many loosely related passages superficially? But then, I have a very jaundiced view of some steps in some Bible study methods - to me they seem to be designed so that the student can feel they have put an appropriate amount of time and energy into Bible study without fear that they might actually learn something.
And maybe all that depends on your reason for studying in the first place.... For example... 1. If you just want to prove your own theology.. then you'll track resources and bible verses to do that. To me, that seems to be a narrow way of researching things... Or 2. You want to prove something no matter where it leads you and you are just seeking the conclusion of where the evidence does lead you.
I find most people are in category 1. They want to prove their ideology or theology and use the bible to support their assumptions. I just don't think the bible was written for us to do that. That puts me in category 2. let the evidence lead me on.... and let me base my thinking on that. If I am wrong, I will change.... but first I must prove me wrong....
I hear you man loud and clear! And the wait for the Ultimate may be more than I can bear. [:(]
But I also see people using the same study tool over and over because they are comfortable with it, not because it serves their needs.
That seems to be a risk George pointed out many moons back ... in his case, interlinears. Convenience. I'm a big proponent of 'read the text' (ie know it). It is true, when you come across a ancient concept (eg washing the mouth = introducing the spirit), some type of connectivity is handy ... hard searches are often a mess.
Separately, I was looking at Jerome's discussion (his intro in the NTSK), which is quite interesting. He mentions Scott's Commentary as an early source of the references (along with English Polyglot Bible). So, of course, I had to see if the trusty Logos could speak to Scott's. And indeed.
An article from 1836 (the Association of Gentlemen in Princeton!):
"England continues to furnish many religious books for continental readers. The Rev. Mr. Bonson of Versailles is translating into French, Scott’s Commentary on the Bible. Pearson’s Life of Archbishop Leighton has appeared in German at Basle; and the Life of Joseph Williams of Kidderminster, in like manner at Stuttgart."
And some criticism of Scott's as well (Cyclopedia Vol 2 p430)
"The prevailing characteristic of Scott’s commentary is judiciousness in the opinions advanced. The greater portion of it, however, is not proper exposition. The pious author preaches about and paraphrases the original. His simplicity of purpose generally preserved him from mistakes; but as a commentator he was neither acute nor learned. He wanted a competent acquaintance with the original, power of analysis, a mind unprepossessed by a doctrinal system, and penetration of spirit."
Scott's apparently sort of timed out in the late 1800s, seems like.
At this point, it doesn’t make a difference if it ever makes it to Logos or not 😏
I think we would be well-served by having the current tools and applying them. If I thought any differently I wouldn’t be using Logos.
Logos works quite well without the ultimate version of TSK. Maybe FL is not interested.
[Faithlife] works quite well without the ultimate version of TSK. Maybe FL is not interested.
I thought your quote, edited, made a more accurate assessment!
[Faithlife] works quite well without the ultimate version of TSK. Maybe FL is not interested. I thought your quote, edited, made a more accurate assessment!
👍
FL will probably get this newer version, but I simply don’t hold my breath as to it. A given reference is going to appear in dozens of works in Logo. I just like the layout Smith uses as it’s more of a Swiss Army knife to the task.
Mark raised the question above:"I am sorry, but I am still confused. Please make is clear. What is the difference between TNTOSK and TUCRT? From your comments, one is contained in the other. Is TNTOSK contained in TUCRT, meaning the TUCRT is more complete or the other way around?"
Therefore, to suggest that there is any connection between the references and the opinions expressed by Scott in his commentary and elsewhere to which at least one commentator on this thread objected is mistaken.
Sorry, Jerome. My comment spoke to the range of Logos's library. Even the mighty BDAG goes back to the same period, with various argumentative comments back then. And then, is not now.
We await the Ultimate!
Its here:
https://archive.org/details/the-ultimate-cross-reference-treasury-pdf
I find most people are in category 1. They want to prove their ideology or theology and use the bible to support their assumptions.
In my ecumenical circle of friends (running highly Episcopalian with Lutherans close behind), I find the Bible read primarily as conversation time with God i.e. spiritual growth. I do know people who see the Bible as more of an instruction book / doctrinal book than most my friends. I think the difference in our experience is a testament to the breadth of Christianity that finds Logos useful.
I find most people are in category 1. They want to prove their ideology or theology and use the bible to support their assumptions. In my ecumenical circle of friends (running highly Episcopalian with Lutherans close behind), I find the Bible read primarily as conversation time with God i.e. spiritual growth. I do know people who see the Bible as more of an instruction book / doctrinal book than most my friends. I think the difference in our experience is a testament to the breadth of Christianity that finds Logos useful.
I'm in the 2nd group. I see the bible as God's instructions for us to be how He wants us to be. Maybe that's why I see Logos to be biased and somewhat limiting on the answers I look for.
No offense xnman, but it is also your bias. That is just the way it is. We are cultural beings.
So for some things, this new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is even more complete and accurate than The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury, though it does not have anywhere near the extensive content.
Thanks for your very helpful comments on this thread. And of course for your tireless efforts to produce a resource that many find very helpful in their study of God's Word.
Let me ask, please, a follow up question. Is it possible that one day, the many updates that have completed TNTOSK may one day make its way into TUCRT?
Secondly, what would you say is the usefulness of the extensive content found in TUCRT as opposed to what is currently in TNTOSK?
And still others might see it as both -- and yet even more than both. I purposely leave the last part of that sentence open because I don't pretend to know the depths of it by any means.
And still others might see it as both -- and yet even more than both
Yes, I did not mean to imply that the positions I mentioned were either comprehensive or mutually exclusive.
No offense taken or meant.
As to the cultural beings, I agree ... But, I "believe" that "culture" is a problem among religious people as they are all striving for their particular culture when the bible teaches, we must be "transformed" and "conformed" to the culture of Jesus. I believe the culture of Jesus is above all the cultures we strive after.
imho ....[8-|]
So for some things, this new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is even more complete and accurate than The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury, though it does not have anywhere near the extensive content. Thanks for your very helpful comments on this thread. And of course for your tireless efforts to produce a resource that many find very helpful in their study of God's Word. Let me ask, please, a follow up question. Is it possible that one day, the many updates that have completed TNTOSK may one day make its way into TUCRT? Secondly, what would you say is the usefulness of the extensive content found in TUCRT as opposed to what is currently in TNTOSK?
Thank you, Mark, for such perceptive questions!(1) "Is it possible that one day, the many updates that have completed TNTOSK may one day make its way into TUCRT?"Almost all of the corrections made in this new edition of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge are taken from The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury. Probably less than a dozen reference errors are newly corrected since I did The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury.
The Figure of Speech Index in The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge was greatly corrected from the same but newer Figure of Speech Index given in The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury. However, the Publisher found some errors, some lack of correspondence, some missing connections between what is listed in the Figure of Speech Index and what is provided in the text of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. It took me six weeks to figure out how to correct these problems. They are now completely corrected in this new printing of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (and, I presume, its Kindle version).(2) "What would you say is the usefulness of the extensive content found in TUCRT as opposed to what is currently in TNTOSK?"The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge even as it stands in the edition available in Logos Bible Software is still in the newly released printed and Kindle edition not so different from each other that the average occasional user of this resource would notice the differences between the two. A "power user" (like me) that uses The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge will probably appreciate the lack of wrong references present in my original work.The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury is a greatly expanded version of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. It contains many more cross references, including for the New Testament all the reciprocal references (the inclusion for each verse all the references elsewhere in the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge that contain references to that verse). I completed this feature for all the prophets and minor prophets in the Old Testament, and for all the over 1800 verses listed in the "Key Verse Comparison Chart" of The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible which contains verses from every book of the Bible. From the Preface to that chart: "The verses were selected for their doctrinal importance and for their familiarity to readers of the Bible by a team of scholars, editors, and laity." The UCRT contains many more notes and associated bibliography restored from Bagster's Comprehensive Bible, as well as a corrected index to those philological and geographical, etc., notes. And much more, all detailed in the UCRT preface material. Here is a sample comparison for Romans 15:7 from:
Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:
receive: Rom 14:1-3; Mat 10:40; Mar 9:37; Luk 9:48as: Rom 5:2; Mat 11:28-30; Luk 15:2; Joh 6:37, Joh 13:34to: Rom 15:9; Eph 1:6-8, Eph 1:12, Eph 1:18; 2Th 1:10-12
The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:
receive. Rom 12:10; *Rom 14:1-3; +*Mal 3:16; *Mat 10:40; Mat 25:40; *Mar 9:37-41; *Luk 9:48; Luk 10:38; Luk 10:39; Joh 13:34; *Act 9:26-28; *Act 11:25; Act 11:26; *Act 16:15; Act 17:7; +*2Co 6:9; Gal 6:1; Gal 6:2; Heb 13:1; Heb 13:2; +*1Pe 4:9; 1Pe 4:10; 1Jn 3:14; ?1 John 2 Jn10; ◐3Jn9; 3Jn10one another. +Rom 12:5as Christ. Rom 5:2; +*Mat 11:28-30; *Luk 15:2; Joh 1:38; Joh 1:39; ✓Joh 6:37; *Joh 13:34; Heb 2:11; Heb 11:16to the glory. ver. *Rom 15:9; +Rom 3:23; *Eph 1:6-8; Eph 1:12; Eph 1:18; Php 2:11; *2Th 1:10-12
Nelson's Cross Reference Guide to the Bible:
receive. Ro 12:10, 13. 14:1-3. 16:2. Ps 119:74. Mal +3:16. Mt 10:14, 15, 40-42. 18:5. 25:35, 40, 43, 45, 46. Mk 6:11. 9:37-41. Lk 9:5, 48. 10:8, 10, 38, 39. Jn 13:20, 34. Ac 9:26-28, 43. 11:25, 26. 16:15. 17:7. 2 Cor 6:9. 7:2, 15. Ga 6:1. Phil 2:29. Col 4:10. 1 J 3:14. 2 J 10. 3 J 8-10.
The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury:
receive, Rom 12:10; Rom 12:13; Rom 14:1-3; Rom 16:2, Psa 119:74, +Mal 3:16, Mat 10:14; Mat 10:15; Mat 10:40-42; Mat 18:5; Mat 25:35; Mat 25:40; Mat 25:43; Mat 25:45; Mat 25:46, Mar 6:11; Mar 9:37-41, Luk 9:5; Luk 9:48; Luk 10:8; Luk 10:10; Luk 10:38; Luk 10:39, Joh 13:20; Joh 13:34, Act 9:26-28; Act 9:43; Act 11:25; Act 11:26; Act 16:15; Act 17:7, 2Co 6:9; 2Co 7:2; 2Co 7:15, Gal 6:1, Php 2:29, Col 4:10, Phm 1:12; Phm 1:17, Heb 13:1-2, 1Pe +4:9-10, 1Jn 3:14, 2Jn 1:10, 3Jn 1:8-10,
one another, +Rom 12:5,
as Christ, Rom 5:2, Mat +11:28-30, Luk 9:11; Luk 15:2, Joh 1:38; Joh 1:39; Joh 6:37; Joh 13:34, Heb 2:11; Heb 11:16,
to the glory, ver, 9, +Rom 3:23, Eph 1:6-8; Eph 1:12; Eph 1:18, Php 2:11, 2Th 1:10-12
And still others might see it as both -- and yet even more than both Yes, I did not mean to imply that the positions I mentioned were either comprehensive or mutually exclusive.
I should have better clarified: I understand you were speaking in terms of emphasis, and those emphases certainly do exist -- sometimes fairly exclusively of the other. So I thought it good just to "emphasize" they need not be so. [:)]
