On Pre-Pub Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha
Comments
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Rick Brannan said:
My guess is that James has conflated these two processes since they both involved reverse interlienars.
Yes, he probably did [:S]
It was a long time ago that my wife and I worked on that interlinear and I thought it was the first one released. I also wasn't aware that the effort that we (and others) put into the project wasn't used. I can certainly understand there being consistency issues. The effort is not as straight forward as one might think.
Thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding Rick.
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Michael Aubrey said:Dave Hooton said:
Could you state how the link to the Logos LXX works. I understand that the "underlying" Greek will appear in the NRSV resource as per the Greek for the NT but it seems to work differently to the New Testament Greek.
Its the same as in the NT texts. There is no link to the Logos LXX in the Logos LXX. That resource is simply the text used to create the RI and thus a necessary prerequisite. And since the words in that resource share the same tokens. To the extent that sympathetic highlighting will connect the NRSV to the actual LXX resource, they are in a way still connected.
Let me rephrase:-
There will be no Greek text in the NRSV Apocrypha books unless I have the Logos LXX?
If I hide all my Greek NT bibles there will be no Greek text in any of the Reverse Interlinear NT's?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
There will be no Greek text in the NRSV Apocrypha books unless I have the Logos LXX?
Yes -- you can't use a text you don't own.
Dave Hooton said:If I hide all my Greek NT bibles there will be no Greek text in any of the Reverse Interlinear NT's?
I've never tried that, but my guess would be no: there would still be the Greek text in the reverse interlinears. You own those Greek text and thus you already have a license for them, which then applies to the reverse interlinears NTs. The need for the Logos LXX is a license for the text and morphology to use in the NRSV.
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Michael Aubrey said:
Yes -- you can't use a text you don't own.
Due to current financial situations I have been limping along with an engine upgrade to L4 rather than purchasing the L4 upgrade for my Scholars Gold. Maybe next year I can upgrade this
Now, I understand that some of the new resources for Scholars Gold and some of the new features of L4 I just won't get until I do upgrade. My question: Is the version of Septuagint with morphology that I have sufficient for providing reverse interlinear capability with the NRSV?Version:
LLS:1.0.301
2006-11-28T03:53:40Z
LXX.lbxllsThanks!
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James W Bennett said:
Is the version of Septuagint with morphology that I have sufficient for providing reverse interlinear capability with the NRSV?
Version:
LLS:1.0.301
2006-11-28T03:53:40Z
LXX.lbxllsYou specifically need the LXX with Logos Morphology. There are too many technical hurdles with trying to create a reverse interlinear using 2 extremely different morphologies to make it possible to do.
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Michael Aubrey said:
You specifically need the LXX with Logos Morphology.
So then, the version that came with Scholar's Gold in L3 did not have Logos Morphology?
Does the version that comes with Scholar's Gold in L4 have Logos Morphology or not? Or does the Septuagint with Logos Morphology have to be bought as a separate product?
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James W Bennett said:
So then, the version that came with Scholar's Gold in L3 did not have Logos Morphology?
No. the LXX with Logos Morphology was released with L4 because of various problems with the morphological analysis in the previous version. It also brought it inline with the morph scheme used by Josephus, the Apostolic Fathers, Philo, and Logos' NA27.
James W Bennett said:Does the version that comes with Scholar's Gold in L4 have Logos Morphology or not? Or does the Septuagint with Logos Morphology have to be bought as a separate product?
Yes, the LXX version required does indeed come with Scholars Gold in L4. Up until last week, the LXX with Logos Morph couldn't be purchased separately. In fact, we specifically made it available as a separate download because of this pre-pub.
James, I'm sorry that this has been confusing -- releasing a reverse interlinear on pre-pub is a new thing for us and it has been hard to anticipate ahead of time what to expect in terms of questions or confusion.
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Michael Aubrey said:
James, I'm sorry that this has been confusing
Not confusing, just trying to establish WHICH version is required. Hate to order the RI if I can't use it yet.
The confusing part is that the page for the LXX w/Logos Morph is not clear that it isn't the same as the LXX w/Morphology shipped with L3. I suspected as much since the L4 upgrade page seems to indicate that the version shipped with L4 Scholars Gold is a newly updated resource.
But it's not clear if that is a NEW resource only shiupping with an L4 package upgrade or a resource upgrade that would then download with just a L4 engine update.
I have to make things difficult by being one of the few that have not upgraded my package and just updated the engine. But, then finances and the economy as it is, other things more demanding of money. Such as food. For some reason my kids don't think fasting 4-5 days a week so dad can buy a software update is a good thing
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James W Bennett said:
The confusing part is that the page for the LXX w/Logos Morph is not clear that it isn't the same as the LXX w/Morphology shipped with L3. I suspected as much since the L4 upgrade page seems to indicate that the version shipped with L4 Scholars Gold is a newly updated resource.
Gotcha.
This is the one that came with version 3: http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/lxx
This is the one that comes with version 4: http://www.logos.com/products/details/7080 and required for the NRSV RI.
The latter has a note that states:
Note: This edition of the Septuagint is only available for Logos 4 and higher. It cannot be used in Libronix 3.0 or earlier.
I hope that helps.
James W Bennett said:I have to make things difficult by being one of the few that have not upgraded my package and just updated the engine. But, then finances and the economy as it is, other things more demanding of money. Such as food. For some reason my kids don't think fasting 4-5 days a week so dad can buy a software update is a good thing
Yeah, I hear you. The discounts for upgrading are back to celebrate the Mac release though, if that might at all help.
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Michael Aubrey said:Dave Hooton said:
There will be no Greek text in the NRSV Apocrypha books unless I have the Logos LXX?
Yes -- you can't use a text you don't own.
However, those with Bible Study Library or Leader's Library have English-Hebrew and English-Greek RI's without owning any Ancient Language texts and Morphologies according to the Comparison Chart!
You see I had this presupposition that you could buy an RI text because it's a file with alignment data and original language text/morphology. What you (Logos) seem to be saying is that this LXX RI offering requires a separate $100 licence that also includes the resource! I am obviously happy to pay $30 for the alignment data because I own the resource but I wonder if others could purchase the LXX licence for a lot less than $100?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
However, those with Bible Study Library or Leader's Library have English-Hebrew and English-Greek RI's without owning any Ancient Language texts and Morphologies according to the Comparison Chart!
You see I had this presupposition that you could buy an RI text because it's a file with alignment data and original language text/morphology. What you (Logos) seem to be saying is that this LXX RI offering requires a separate $100 licence that also includes the resource! I am obviously happy to pay $30 for the alignment data because I own the resource but I wonder if others could purchase the LXX licence for a lot less than $100?
Yes, I know. And we've talked about this internally several times. Those with the Bible Study Library & Leader's Library do own licenses to the original language texts. They only have access to them through their reverse interlinears, but they're still there. What it basically comes down to is this: were we to include the cost of licensing the LXX in the resource, two things would happen:
- The majority of users would be basically buying a book again them don't have (note: Logos' best selling packages).
- We wouldn't be selling the Apocrypha RI at $30. It would be more expensive, get fewer orders, and perhaps not ever make it into production.
It was a choice that needed to be made. Its an exciting tool that deserves to make it to 100% and opens up potential for plenty of study for the layperson, student, and scholar.
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Michael Aubrey said:We wouldn't be selling the Apocrypha RI at $30. It would be more expensive, get fewer orders, and perhaps not ever make it into production.
For some users it is already $100 more expensive! I was thinking the prepub page would have a $30 price for those with LXX licences and a different price for those who need the licence but not the resource.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Michael Aubrey said:
Yes, I know. And we've talked about this internally several times. Those with the Bible Study Library & Leader's Library do own licenses to the original language texts. They only have access to them through their reverse interlinears, but they're still there.
OK Mike, so what your saying is there is actually a split level licensing of the Original language texts. A 'Junior' License that only allows you to access them through a reverse interlinear and a 'Senior' License that allows you to access the full text as a separate license.
Dave Hooton said:For some users it is already $100 more expensive! I was thinking the prepub page would have a $30 price for those with LXX licences and a different price for those who need the licence but not the resource.
Using my somewhat wanting analogy I think what you are suggesting here David is the approach here taken is inconsistent with what Logos has done in the past. In this case Logos is saying if you don't have the 'Senior' license the only option is to purchase the 'Senior' license. So I think what you are suggesting is there should be two pre-pub offers,
1) for those who already have the senior license and so only need the updated NRSV resource
2) for those who don't have the senior license they can purchase the updated NRSV together with a junior license for a price somewhere between $30 and $130 with the assumption that the cost would be under the $100 mark if not lower, thus making it a more attractive option to a user of Bible Study or Leader's Library.
This does seem fairer than forcing someone to buy the full geek text if they don't want it. At the same time I can see such a pricing causing some confusion so it would need to be well explained, as after the product was released you wouldn't want support to get a flood of calls because customers had misunderstood and ordered the wrong license.
The other option would have been to force everyone to 'buy' the junior license with the text but what that would do to the pre-pub price is another can of worms
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Dave Hooton said:
For some users it is already $100 more expensive! I was thinking the prepub page would have a $30 price for those with LXX licences and a different price for those who need the licence but not the resource.
The central questions for us were these:
- How many people who buy the lower level packages every buy anything else?
- Of the few that remain, how many of them would be interested in an reverse interlinear of the apocrypha?
The numbers get pretty small after answering both of those.
I feel I need to repeat that this was a really hard decision to make and for several months (between March and May) the answer was: "We simply won't do it." It was toward the end of May that we changed our mind and went with what we're doing now. I think it was the right decision and, personally--as someone professionally trained in translation--, I am extremely excited about having an RI apocrypha.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
OK Mike, so what your saying is there is actually a split level licensing of the Original language texts. A 'Junior' License that only allows you to access them through a reverse interlinear and a 'Senior' License that allows you to access the full text as a separate license.
In a sense, yes, but at the same time, all licenses pay the same amount of royalties to the publisher. At the level of cost, there's no difference between them.
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Michael Aubrey said:Dave Hooton said:
For some users it is already $100 more expensive! I was thinking the prepub page would have a $30 price for those with LXX licences and a different price for those who need the licence but not the resource.
The central questions for us were these:
- How many people who buy the lower level packages every buy anything else?
- Of the few that remain, how many of them would be interested in an reverse interlinear of the apocrypha?
The numbers get pretty small after answering both of those.
I feel I need to repeat that this was a really hard decision to make and for several months (between March and May) the answer was: "We simply won't do it." It was toward the end of May that we changed our mind and went with what we're doing now. I think it was the right decision and, personally--as someone professionally trained in translation--, I am extremely excited about having an RI apocrypha.
Respect there was a difficult choice to be made Mike but glad one was made to proceed forward then remaining with the status quo.
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Michael Aubrey said:
I feel I need to repeat that this was a really hard decision to make and for several months (between March and May) the answer was: "We simply won't do it." It was toward the end of May that we changed our mind and went with what we're doing now.
And I'll buy it because i hate having that white space in my Interlinear pane[:D]
My questions arose from curiosity/confusion rather than wanting to challenge the marketing decisions, so I really appreciate your patience in answering them.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Michael Aubrey said:
I am extremely excited about having an RI apocrypha.
Here, I thought Logos had moved beyond the original Logos' canon mentality. Among the reasons I thought Logos was beyond this:
- You offered an RI NRSV without noting it was incomplete
- You offered the LXX and are adding to its supporting materials.
- You offered the Syriac which reasonably leads to expectations of a broader canon & narrowed canon simultaneously.
- You offered the Coptic, NT only but still in the broader canon arena
- You paired with Jewish, Catholic and Lutheran partners all implying support for multiple canons
- You offered (then moved to limbo) a Samaritan package implying yet another canon.
What does that leave out? Armenian and broad Ethiopian? Sorry it was a hard decision, it should have been a no brainer. With L4, Logos truly has the opportunity to greatly increase its appeal to the 79% of Christians using other canons. With the increased interest of Evangelicals in Early Church Fathers and the increased production of Orthodox works in English, I think Logos is on the verge of something great.
Thank you Logos for doing the right thing. And thanks for justifying my faith that you would.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Michael Aubrey said:
English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
Only a handful of orders more...
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Only a handful! ?? !! Wow! Would I ever love to have this in my library.
*smile*
Peace and Joy to you in the Lord!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Michael Aubrey said:Michael Aubrey said:
English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
Only a handful of orders more...
I've given it a plug on the Logos Bible Software Fan Page to catch those who might not frequent the newsgroups....
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Michael Aubrey said:Michael Aubrey said:
English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
Only a handful of orders more...
I've given it a plug on the Logos Bible Software Fan Page to catch those who might not frequent the newsgroups....
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Thank you, Andrew! *smile* Peace and Joy to you for this day, actually I think it's a new day for you, and you must be having peaceful slumber right now. My daughter has moved to Hong Kong, and her time is similar to yours.
According to how I have my monitor set, this much desired Pre-Pub only has 2.5 millimetres to go!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
*smile*
Milford
I can't stand it any longer; inquiring minds want to know. Your avatar looks exactly like my former theology professor: Dr Hoyle Bowman @ Piedmont Baptist College in Winston-Salem, NC. Could you have an identical twin?
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Jack Caviness said:Milford Charles Murray said:
*smile*
Milford
I can't stand it any longer; inquiring minds want to know. Your avatar looks exactly like my former theology professor: Dr Hoyle Bowman @ Piedmont Baptist College in Winston-Salem, NC. Could you have an identical twin?
Jack, Jack! May God bless you richly for all the wonderful sharing you have done on these Logos Forums. You have helped many, and been a source of gladness to us all with you very positive writings.
As for Dr. Hoyle Bowman ............. Never heard of him before! *smile* However! I think I might like him very much! Evidently I have a few duplicates around North America I am told!
Thanks Jack for the pleasant uplift. My wife and I just got back from spending a night at the Sheraton in Toronto seeing "South Pacific"; and I am in a very, very good mood. Peace to you .............. And Great Joy in the Lord, always ............
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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