FL promoting Contemplative Prayer / Spirituality ?
this months free e-book deals page has a lot of authors that i would put in the Contemplative Prayer / Spirituality camp.
https://www.logos.com/free-ebook
most if not all of the authors are on this list (a list of authors to avoid):
https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/2nd-edition-booklet-directory-of-authors-three-not-recommended-lists/
i'm not saying that list is perfect, but it helps shed some light on questionable viewpoints of certain authors.
on that website you can search for authors and sometimes they have articles on them. for example here's one on Richard Foster.
in particular, some of these authors are introducing meditation (the kind where you "empty your mind"), as a spiritual practice during prayer. see also this video: a former Zen Meditator talks about the difference between True Biblical Meditation and Eastern Meditation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpdtnLHDViQ
my 2 cents: i don't think faithlife should be promoting some of these books.
for reference, here's the list for october 2023 from https://www.logos.com/free-ebook :
https://www.logos.com/product/49650/eldership-and-the-mission-of-god-equipping-teams-for-faithful-church-leadership
https://www.logos.com/product/222514/lead-like-joshua-lessons-for-today
https://www.logos.com/product/225023/the-singer-a-classic-retelling-of-cosmic-conflict
https://www.logos.com/product/20302/sanctuary-of-the-soul-journey-into-meditative-prayer
https://www.logos.com/product/187856/shaped-by-suffering-how-temporary-hardships-prepare-us-for-our-eternal-home
https://www.logos.com/product/55204/hearing-god-through-the-year-a-365-day-devotional
https://www.logos.com/product/45267/sacred-companions-the-gift-of-spiritual-friendship-direction
https://www.logos.com/product/166679/invitation-to-solitude-and-silence-experiencing-gods-transforming-presence
https://www.logos.com/product/166711/invitation-to-retreat-the-gift-and-necessity-of-time-away-with-god
https://www.logos.com/product/129317/search-the-scriptures-a-three-year-daily-devotional-guide-to-the-whole-bible
List of books recommended by the Denver Seminary Journal: https://denverjournal.denverseminary.edu/
https://www.bestcommentaries.com/
Comments
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FYI, don’t make the mistake of assuming/speculating like many have done in the past — FL is in the business of selling religious books for research purposes, not to be promoting whatever it is that you or others think FL is promoting. When you keep that in the forefront of your mind you’ll stop worrying and speculating about those things or assuming too much.
Many have worried that FL promotes calvinism just because books are sold that teach that theology. Others have speculated that N.T. Wright gets promoted too much. Others worry about the different denominational base packages FL offers and on and on the speculation continues that FL is promoting this or that when they’re just in the business of selling religious books that help in the study of the Bible.
Trust me, we already have one too many that want to tell FL what to offer and what not to offer or speculate about what FL is promoting or not promoting, so don’t be one of them! 👍😁👌
Anyway, just a friendly advice to save yourself unnecessary frustrations 😏
DAL
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The guidelines for the forums say:
Phil Gons (Logos) said:Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.
- Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
- Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
So for the purposes of the forum, I don't care that you don't believe in being quiet and listening to God. This is not the place to discuss it. Logos/Verbum tries to serve the broad spectrum of Christians, and in doing so carries books so that everyone can be equally offended by the "heresy". What offends me is not what offends you, but trust me, I am offended. But the forums is not the place for me to disclose what offends me.
But thank you for pointing me to the eBook sale which I often ignore; I made some purchases.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
thank you for pointing me to the eBook sale which I often ignore; I made some purchases.
I would have liked to get one or two from the list (e.g. Dallas Willard and 'Search the Scriptures') but the publisher once again doesn't like my foreign address.
Have joy in the Lord!
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David S said:
i'm not saying that list is perfect,
I'd say. I scanned down ... gee, Logos is ready for fire and brimstone (but not hell). Some authors are even in Logos' preacher development collections. Oh my. I just wish Logos would stop offering what I don't think others should read.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
But thank you for pointing me to the eBook sale which I often ignore; I made some purchases.
That's as good an example of a passive-aggressive comeback as I've witnessed in a while. [;)]
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I almost always ignore the ebook things, too, but there's some stuff I'm contemplating [;)] purchasing.
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Gary Osborne said:MJ. Smith said:
But thank you for pointing me to the eBook sale which I often ignore; I made some purchases.
That's as good an example of a passive-aggressive comeback as I've witnessed in a while.
At least I remembered not everyone wants a history lesson ... or a comparative religion lesson[:#]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Gary Osborne said:MJ. Smith said:
But thank you for pointing me to the eBook sale which I often ignore; I made some purchases.
That's as good an example of a passive-aggressive comeback as I've witnessed in a while.
This one was actually my favorite line:
MJ. Smith said:I don't care that you don't believe in being quiet and listening to God.
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Kiyah said:Gary Osborne said:MJ. Smith said:
But thank you for pointing me to the eBook sale which I often ignore; I made some purchases.
That's as good an example of a passive-aggressive comeback as I've witnessed in a while.
This one was actually my favorite line:
MJ. Smith said:I don't care that you don't believe in being quiet and listening to God.
Okay, let me give a bit of background on my reaction to this post.
- I do, as a matter of course, seriously consider buying books that others object to. (a) I want to be informed as to what their issue is not what I guess it might be and (b) I figure knowing they increased the sales of the book is a deterrent to continue trying to shape Logos to their beliefs.
- I was bombarded in Fatihlife messages by a forum participant with regards to a recommendation that had "mysticism" in its title. If the word "mysticism" meant what he thought it meant, his concerns would have been legitimate. Unfortunately, his definition was a highly idiocentric definition; nothing would convince him that the dictionary definition was what I meant and the author meant. I react poorly to anti-mysticism, anti-meditation posts as I tend to assume the definitions are similarly idiocentric.
- I agree with the original poster that there is a difference between Christian meditation and Buddhist meditation -- one sits quietly in front of a God that reaches out to us; the other sits quietly in front of a radical recognition of impermanence. That doesn't mean we don't share methods and experiences in the "sitting quietly" part. However, I do object the misrepresentation of church history that implies that Centering Prayer is a borrowed tradition, or that the use of "spiritual formation" rather than "faith formation" is anything more than a vocabulary difference. Some traditions may have scuttled Centering Prayer or made a distinction between faith and spiritual formation ... but don't apply that to a whole block of authors who don't. Read the authors and figure out what they mean by the terms.
- My definition of "being quiet and listening to God" is accurate for all Abrahamic religions - what happens beyond that is at the initiative of God not man. If it were the latter, I would be slipping into magic in which the actions of man can force a specific action by God.
- So, yes, while what I said was accurate and succinct, I probably should have applied more diplomacy... he's new enough to the forums to not know that isn't my forte. At the very least, I should have let him define what he meant by his terms. I'm glad you enjoyed it.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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since this isn't the place to discuss, i'll just leave it at that then.
@MJ. Smith i do appreciate your informative reply. did they disable private messages at https://faithlife.com/messages ? i wouldn't mind talking a little about it there.
List of books recommended by the Denver Seminary Journal: https://denverjournal.denverseminary.edu/
https://www.bestcommentaries.com/0 -
I'm actually sympathetic to your position, David. I've used Lighthouse Trails in the past for discernment research. What I do find interesting is that among the authors he lists as "NOT Recommended" is someone like William Law, whose book on Holy Living and Dying was republished and promoted by none other than Dave Hunt - a legend in the Discernment ministry field and a man that paved the way for websites like Lighthouse Trails.
My point being that often times these ministries use a guilt by association without any detail. Logos is going to carry books I vehemently disagree with doctrinally. And they are going to carry books that I consider essential for my studies that other users would think are way off base. It is what it is. But I'd rather Logos cast a wide net rather than a narrow one. As someone who is decidedly neither Reformed nor Catholic, I'm happy Logos offers some materials I find useful.
Take care.
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David S said:
did they disable private messages at https://faithlife.com/messages
No, but one has to have a shared group IIRC. As I am in most Logos product groups, its fairly easy to find me.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:
FYI, don’t make the mistake of assuming/speculating like many have done in the past — FL is in the business of selling religious books for research purposes, not to be promoting whatever it is that you or others think FL is promoting. When you keep that in the forefront of your mind you’ll stop worrying and speculating about those things or assuming too much.
This. Threads like this that try to restrict what Logos does and does not put out irk me to no end. While I no longer teach at a seminary (I'm now a mega church pastor instead--I've been one thing or another that will offend everyone!) I still research and write academically. We HAVE to have primary resources* in order to study and speak about them competently. We can't just say, "Oh, such-and-such discernment blog says they're bad; avoid!" For example: I had to read Mary Daly for one class I taught. I wouldn't necessarily recommend you (generic) read her, but I had to in order to represent her fairly.
Another example: a huge lack in Logos is Bultmann; there's practically nothing of his, but try to find a work of NT scholarship from the 20th century that doesn't reference him--you'll be looking a long time. Any serious student of the NT needs access to Bultmann, but I can imagine the outrage that would come if Faithlife offered a collection of his works. I likely wouldn't buy it now for lack of need, but I would have loved to have something like that when I was doing my PG studies.
We need more stuff in Logos, not less.
*Whether it is financially viable for FL to offer all the resources niche academics need is a separate (and fair) question.
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There are a couple Bultmann volumes available. But iirc, there was a discussion about getting his commentary on John and like the decades long search for Barth's Romans commentary, I thought I remembered some kind of copyright issue. But I may be remembering incorrectly.
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MJ. Smith said:
So for the purposes of the forum, I don't care that you don't believe in being quiet and listening to God. This is not the place to discuss it.
And yet that's exactly what your first sentence does, doesn't it?
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David S said:
i'm not saying that list is perfect
That list declares people like Albert Mohler, WL Craig, JP Moreland, to be false teachers. I have the suspicion that they add every author to it who isn't in their own camp. I can't take it seriously. No-one should.
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Jan Krohn said:David S said:
i'm not saying that list is perfect
That list declares people like Albert Mohler, WL Craig, JP Moreland, to be false teachers. I have the suspicion that they add every author to it who isn't in their own camp. I can't take it seriously. No-one should.
Yeah unfortunately I went back and clicked it and that list and website are rubbish. No one should trust the "discernment" of people who make a blacklist of authors so long that it would take them several lifetimes to read them all, which is what it would require to give anything remotely resembling a fair "judgment."
(I went back to check if I'm on it. Nope! But probably only because I'm not famous enough.)
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Jan Krohn said:David S said:
i'm not saying that list is perfect
That list declares people like Albert Mohler, WL Craig, JP Moreland, to be false teachers. I have the suspicion that they add every author to it who isn't in their own camp. I can't take it seriously. No-one should.
I traveled in "discernment" circles in the past and I know full well what animates the majority of them. They are way too quick to paint with broad brushes and dismiss most anyone that has written or said anything resembling what they believe is serious false doctrine. I've often seen these folk turn on one another (discernment vs discernment). It's a sad state of affairs.
Having said all that, I do wish Logos would carry all of Dave Hunt's books. He had a true servant's heart and was a gentle man even when dealing with what he believed was serious doctrinal errors. He ran a legit discernment ministry for decades. He passed away a number of years ago, and I'm betting he'd be grieved to see how far afield many of the current "discernment ministries" have drifted.
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I think it's worth noting that all of these books (well, at least the first half a dozen, I didn't look at them all) are from the same publisher. This is common for free books/heavily discounted books. That has changed a bit over the years as there is more often a mix of publishers in a single month, but it still helps explain the similarities. But if you look at the last 6-7 years of this offerings history, it actually was almost exclusively aligned with the monthly publisher for many years.
I would also point out that the thought process behind how this promotion was built when it went from just a single free book to multiple offerings was that if someone wants the free book, they probably would like this other similar book for $2, and this one for $5... so on and so forth. And it works! I've bought loads of books of this page back to when the free book +1 started. I say this to point out that the intent here is sales, not theology.And if I can speak from my time at Logos, the idea that someone is being sneaky with their picks for the free book of the month is farfetched. If I can speculate as a former employee why this specific trend was chosen; someone noticed that these types of books have not historically been pushed in pairs and thought it would be a good idea.
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David S said:
most if not all of the authors are on this list (a list of authors to avoid):
https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/2nd-edition-booklet-directory-of-authors-three-not-recommended-lists/So, a list of authors that this website doesn’t like. That’s hardly authoritative. 🙄
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
I recall a leader in our church network telling us we shouldn’t read Brian McLaren’s books. Within a day of hearing this, I had bought three of them and read them all within a week. All my friends did likewise. I found things that were refreshing, some that were thought-provoking, and things I disagreed with.
Our leader’s banning of an author actually sold several hundred copies of his books. I hope this guy’s list has the same impact. Setting yourself up in judgment over some of the world’s best spiritual writers, theologians and biblical scholars might - just might - be a symptom of pride, and we all know how serious that is.
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David Wanat said:David S said:
most if not all of the authors are on this list (a list of authors to avoid):
https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/2nd-edition-booklet-directory-of-authors-three-not-recommended-lists/So, a list of authors that this website doesn’t like. That’s hardly authoritative. 🙄
I hadn't bothered to click on this link when I saw this thread and wasn't going to chime in, just thinking 🤦♀️ to myself.
But then David's comment got me to click. And ugh. Anyone that thinks "contemplative spirituality" and "Spiritual Formation" are the same thing doesn't understand either. Logos's blog "Grow" has a good article on what spiritual formation is: https://www.logos.com/grow/what-is-spiritual-formation-and-why-does-it-matter/
And what a wide net this organization casts in the authors they would ban. Many of them on their list are among my favorite authors, and some I know or knew personally (Eugene Peterson was a professor of mine and a dear friend).
Also some of these people have strong conservative evangelical bona fides: Carl F. Henry, Timothy Keller, Albert Mohler, John Piper. Anyone who would ban these authors as being too "contemplative" or "universalist" or "liberal" or "new age" or whatever is carving for themselves a very small window of possible reading indeed. Might as well just read the Bible and not use a Logos Library at all then.
Sure, I wouldn't recommend all the people on that list. Mark Driscoll is one I wish people wouldn't read, for example. But I'm not going to request that Logos not carry his books.
Also "ecumenism" is what we have here on the forums; people of different denominations getting along together (for the most part) because we share the common goal of studying the Bible and using Logos to do it. So thinking that "ecumenism" is bad and to be avoided is misguided. That results in separate sects cutting themselves off from all others who think differently from them, because they think they are the only ones who have it all right.
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Rosie Perera said:
That results in separate sects cutting themselves off from all others who think differently from them, because they think they are the only ones who have it all right.
I always assumed it was because they were afraid they couldn't support their own point of view. A friend of mine in Arizona ran into a church where the pastor made them leave their Bibles on their seat rather than taking it home because the pastor thought they'd go astray if they read the Bible on their own. I've always held that you were indoctrinated rather than believed if you didn't know the other possible positions -- which, if you look at Medieval education, is actually a very conservative position.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry, I know I said I wasn't going to teach ... but I just ran into a great paper Gregory Palamas and Hesychasm (csbsju.edu) that is in the context of the Hesychast Controversy (Eastern Orthodox church history) which in some ways parallels the contemplative prayer controversy.
And please, everyone (including myself) be careful of the language you use to describe what you don't agree with. The OP should be comfortable in the forums, not feel attacked.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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i should admit i haven't done a ton of research on contemplative prayer. everywhere i looked (in books and online) it was painted with a "bad picture", relating it to an unbiblical practice or questionable at best. neither have i heard any pastor/preacher or other christian in real life advocate for the practice (i'm more in the protestant/reformed/evangelical camp). and so that one-sided impression stayed with me and i assumed this to be the common understanding among christians. hence my critique against faithlife for their promotion.
upon further investigation, it seems like i have discounted "contemplative prayer" too quickly and that it warrants a closer look.
this book, Embracing Contemplation: Reclaiming a Christian Spiritual Practice, seems to be a good starting point, at least from a protestant viewpoint. it's a collection of essays on the matter to further a discussion (but not for this forum
). the first chapter deals with some of the issues raised by the Lighthouse Trails Research website. there's also a chapter on: "Tom Schwanda introduces the reader to criticisms of contemplation and spiritual formation that have arisen in popular-level online discourse". i think Tim Kellers: Prayer: Experiencing Awe and Intimacy with God talks about it too.
kind regardsList of books recommended by the Denver Seminary Journal: https://denverjournal.denverseminary.edu/
https://www.bestcommentaries.com/0 -
MJ. Smith said:
So for the purposes of the forum, I don't care that you don't believe in being quiet and listening to God.
I understand that the forum is not the place to discuss doctrinal differences.
But I think your response shows that possibly you are not up to date on the latest debates and contentions among evangelisals and charismatics etc. So my post is an attempt not to argue a postilion, but to clarify why the OP may be objecting to this material.
The term "Contemplative Prayer" has become a keyword describing certain practices which undoubtedly go beyond the traditional catholic vs protestant dialogue. Contemplative Prayer is part of a larger package of practices which have been labeled "new age" among other terms. The entire movement has been labeled the "New Apostolic Reformation" and is led by some very popular leaders, many of whom have very controversial and questionable teachings. Wikipedia has an article listing some of the primary leaders of the movement here:
Quite a few years ago John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul hosted a conference and released a book and other resources with the title "Strange Fire", which attempted to address some of these issues. The entire conference can be easily located and viewed online, I have watched the majority of it on youtube. And a new movie was just released titled Cessationist.
I recently watched the video on Amazon, and it is not really a movie, it is a documentary which presents the reformed view on the cessation of Apostolic ministry, which in their view is also necessary to affirm sola scriptura.
A quick search on Logos for "New Apostolic Reformation" produces several resources, none of which I have read. One is apparently warning of the dangers of this movement:
A New Apostolic Reformation? A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement
Another which is listed as currently in production is authored by one of the leaders identified in the Wikipedia article and so is apparently written to defend the movement:
Churchquake!: How the New Apostolic Reformation Is Shaking Up the Church As We Know It
So it does not appear that Logos is taking a position for or against, it is publishing both sides of the debate. My personal view is that a quick look at the list of names associated with this movement should serve as a warning. The movement has a very low view of scripture, and has embraced and recommended "The Passion translation". I know little about this translation, but some very respected scholars with a lot more knowledge than I posses have spoken out against it.
Hope this information is helpful.
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John said:
But I think your response shows that possibly you are not up to date on the latest debates and contentions among evangelisals and charismatics etc.
I certainly am not up to date on those issues - I'm more interested in the newest debates on the (eventual) reunion of the Oriental Orthodox Christians with the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, especially in the context of so many of the Oriental Orthodox Christians being subject to a diaspora thanks to the political upheavals in the Middle East. Thank you for giving me a bit of an education.
Did you know that the Classics of Western Spirituality was originally sold as a series of 50-60 some volumes that would be completed in 5 years? Its stated purpose was to show people they didn't need to turn to the East for meditation/contemplation/mysticism because the West had its equally old tradition of the practices. As an original subscriber to the series, I believe I am allowed to chuckle at all those who claim it is imported from the East or is a "new age" invention. And, yes, the experience with that subscription and the Storyteller's Bible which never delivered one volume was very similar to those who subscribed to the EEC volumes. [8-)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
'm more interested in the newest debates on the (eventual) reunion of the Oriental Orthodox Christians with the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, especially in the context of so many of the Oriental Orthodox Christians being subject to a diaspora thanks to the political upheavals in the Middle East.
As far as new spiritual practices not being new, I would agree, and Solomon was right, there is nothing new under the sun. But it is new to Protestantism and the "non-denominational" churches which have abandoned all historic roots, both catholic and protestant.
A current interest of mine has become textual criticism. I followed with some interest over the years the evangelical debate of the issues raised by textual criticism, and the subsequent KJV-only and TR-only movements. Western scholarship for the most part has gone with the critical greek new testament, and left those who prefer the fuller text which is today referred to as Byzantine or Majority text without any recent translations.
The NKJV is pretty much the last effort to do a major scholarly translation of a text similar to that of the KJV.
As I followed these issues for years and did a lot of reading on the subject, I had never even heard about the Greek Orthodox church and their unbroken textual tradition that dates (at least) back to the time of Constantine. I found myself wondering why none of western scholarship (or at least my limited exposure to it) had nothing to say about that.
Now I know that the Greek Orthodox church is publishing its own Patriarchal Greek text (both old and new testaments). With a legitimate claim to an almost 2000 year tradition. But for some reason, scholarship does not consider this very important. Maybe someone could explain this to me?
At the time of the reformation, the few manuscripts which Erasmus had were of this type, and the theory is that when muslim persecution in the east began, many Greek speaking Christians fled to the west, bringing their Greek Bibles with them to Europe.
The Majority text type among the church fathers writings dates back to the time of Constantine, with John Chrysostom being the first father to cite from it. The TR-only and KJV-only advocates have produced theories that the text of Chrysostom had originated in Antioch and the time of the Apostles. But I have yet to see any real evidence produced to back this up. But I wonder if the Greek speaking orthodox church might posses knowledge or evidence which has not been considered by western scholarship?
The Tyndale house Greek New Testament has isolated only the older manuscripts, and one of the things it did differently than NA28 (and previous) is that it assumes that spelling in the manuscript evidence should be left alone, so Greek words vary in spelling in different places.
At this point my theory is that the text was "enhanced" with spelling and grammatical errors corrected at the point when Constantine ordered the professional production of a large number of copies of the Bible to be used in the churches. But I remain convinced that there may be evidence out there yet to be discovered, or maybe already discovered but ignored, which might shed more light on these things. Maybe the Orthodox churches already posses such evidence, but nobody ever bothered to ask them?
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It's not even an established fact that the NAR 'movement' exists. The Wikipedia article is unable to give a reference for any of the claims made. MacArthur has been refusing to debate Michael Brown on any 'NAR' related issues. So unless there's some solud evidence, I'm with Dr. Brown on the 'NAR' issue. It's just a conspiracy theory. https://www.youtube.com/live/zK3_juzE4oc?si=Blqu5f0iejWzUfoo
(Which doesn't mean that some charismatic churches don't struggle with New Age practices, or that the PT doesn't suffer from massive problems.)
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Jan Krohn said:
It's not even an established fact that the NAR 'movement' exists. The Wikipedia article is unable to give a reference for any of the claims made. MacArthur has been refusing to debate Michael Brown on any 'NAR' related issues. So unless there's some solud evidence, I'm with Dr. Brown on the 'NAR' issue. It's just a conspiracy theory. https://www.youtube.com/live/zK3_juzE4oc?si=Blqu5f0iejWzUfoo
(Which doesn't mean that some charismatic churches don't struggle with New Age practices, or that the PT doesn't suffer from massive problems.)
You are correct, and it is a fact that NAR members have repeatedly denied the existence of any organized structure. And I am aware that Wikipedia is never going to be considered an authoritative source, I cited that because it is easy to access. But that is about as far as I can agree with you.
You are completely wrong that it is a "conspiracy theory". You are demanding "solid evidence" while ignoring the Logos resources that I provided links for. Are you going to call those conspiracy theories also?
I am familiar with the dialogue regarding Michael Brown and am familiar with both sides of that. I am aware that James White confronted him on the issue, and Dr. Brown denied the existence of any organization. Dr. White gave him the benefit of the doubt and accepted his answer. Yet it is a fact that Dr. Brown freely associates with and promotes many who are teaching things Dr. White would never endorse. I really do not understand why Dr. Brown desires to associate and mix with that crowd, while at the same time denying that he supports any of their doctrines. There is something strange going on there, but I cannot say that I know what it is. But the issue is far bigger than those two well known personalities.
John MacArthur addressed some of these claims in Strange Fire (which I also cited, and you also ignored).
Your claim that MacArthur "refuses to debate" would be a lot more meaningful if there was any history that he had ever debated anyone on any topic before. Have you seen MacArthur debate before?
I have personally watched a lot of Bill Johnson's sermons online, and it is beyond any shadow of doubt that the doctrines and positions being taught there are being accurately represented by those who oppose them. In addition to that, I have old friends that lived just outside of Kansas city Missouri and attended Mike Bickles church. His daughters were very involved in the ihop ministry and my friend and I had in-depth discussions about what was being taught there, and it definitely included all of the elements of NAR.
I am not particularly against a post-mil eschatology, or even a dominion element. I really enjoyed reading David Chilton. But these peoples claims to be equal to (or greater than) the Apostles is just plain crazy. A huge number of them were exposed when they all "prophesied" a victory and 2nd term for President Trump. Not a single one of them foresaw what really took place. Now they are teaching that its ok for prophets to get things wrong sometimes. I can't buy into that because I have read the Bible before.
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If NAR is a movement, then there needs to be a definitive list of member churches. Since this can't be done, the NAR isn't a movement. I'm not aware that Wagner ever called it a movement. Pivec and Geivitt did call it a movement, but provide no evidence for it in theur book (large portions of which I've read). They also accepted Dr. Brown's debate challenge. Brown clearly won the debate. MacArthur has done a few debates. I've not watched any of those. You'll find them on YouTube.
Guilt by association is a known logical fallacy, and part of any introduction to logic. Dr. Brown is in a position to point out errors and false teachings directly to people like the ones you mentioned. He's addressed those accusations of 'association' many times.
MacArthurs Strange Fire is even controversial in the Reformed camp. Here's a substantial refutation by a Reformed author: https://www.logos.com/product/40576/holy-fire-a-balanced-biblical-look-at-the-holy-spirits-work-in-our-lives
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David S said:
this months free e-book deals page has a lot of authors that i would put in the Contemplative Prayer / Spirituality camp.
https://www.logos.com/free-ebook
most if not all of the authors are on this list (a list of authors to avoid):
https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/2nd-edition-booklet-directory-of-authors-three-not-recommended-lists/Whether or not someone chooses to reactively purchase contested books to prove some ethereal point is of little interest to me on these forums and is probably outside Phil Gons famous guidelines.
What does interest me on these forums is learning about Logos Resources from the perspectives of others. Thanks David, for sharing your views.
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Jan Krohn said:
If NAR is a movement, then there needs to be a definitive list of member churches.
I think of movements very differently - I think only of a group of scholars/theologians who have come to a common point often from very different starting points who have made that common point a starting point for futher development. Think Oxford movement as a case of people who knew each other; narrative theology as a case where they didn't.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jan Krohn said:
If NAR is a movement, then there needs to be a definitive list of member churches. Since this can't be done, the NAR isn't a movement. I'm not aware that Wagner ever called it a movement. Pivec and Geivitt did call it a movement, but provide no evidence for it in theur book (large portions of which I've read). They also accepted Dr. Brown's debate challenge. Brown clearly won the debate. MacArthur has done a few debates. I've not watched any of those. You'll find them on YouTube.
Guilt by association is a known logical fallacy, and part of any introduction to logic. Dr. Brown is in a position to point out errors and false teachings directly to people like the ones you mentioned. He's addressed those accusations of 'association' many times.
MacArthurs Strange Fire is even controversial in the Reformed camp. Here's a substantial refutation by a Reformed author: https://www.logos.com/product/40576/holy-fire-a-balanced-biblical-look-at-the-holy-spirits-work-in-our-lives
You are wanting to debate over the meaning of the word "movement", while ignoring the important issues about what is being taught and whether or not it is compatible with historic Christianity and the Bible.
I'm not interested in debating over the meaning of a word, or over which personality "won" a debate. I'm interested in the more important issues.
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We're not supposed to debate here anyway, especially not about doctrines and practices. Identifying a "movement" seems to be on the fringe of what's permissible here, since it helps identify resources in favour or in opposition to the beliefs and practices of that "movement".
The beliefs and practices are then discussed in the resources themselves. It doesn't even have to be done here.
We could identify a "movement" apart from organized structures. It's still problematic though. How do you define "NAR"?
If we define "NAR" as the group of churches that idenify as "NAR", it's not gonna work, since I'm not aware of any churches identifying as "NAR".
If we define "NAR" as the group of churches following a certain set of condemnable doctrines and practices, then that leads to circular reasoning: "The NAR churches follow these and these unbiblical practices. Since they follow these and these unbiblical practices, we call them NAR."
In any case, the argument "contemplative prayer is unbiblical because it's a NAR practice" doesn't work. "Here's a list with false teachers who promote contemplative prayer" doesn't work.
What's possible here under the forum guidelines (according to my interpretation of them) is the link to a resource that deals with the question of contemplative prayer. I'm not saying that contemplative prayer doesn't have any issues. It's simply something I've never investigated. But with all the attempts of dispaying it as an unbiblical practive here in this thread, the lack of resources that would explain why that's the case, rises many questions. (And resources that generally deal with "NAR" won't do it for the reasons already laid out.)
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