Seriously? Advertisements in my L10 Workspace!
I appreciate that on my L10 (Windows Desktop App) Home Page I receive advertised/unadvertised specials, new book releases, birthday coupons, and so much more. And I can choose to turn on/off as I deem appropriate. But NOW I am getting advertisements in my Workspace! Seriously? Why? My workspace should be MY workspace!
Logos, you have the opportunity to inform me of specials or upcoming events on my Home Page, on your various websites, and through email and social media channels. That I now have to turn off/close/decline advertisements in my Workspace...I think that is terribly invasive "improvement"!
Here is an example of what I am referring to with an advertisement for the new series of webinars at the top of the L10 workspace. (Especially annoying, considering I have already registered for the entire series of webinars!)
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Well, your screenshot kind of demonstrates 'seriously'.
For many years (Logosian ages), that was a 'red-line' they wouldn't cross. Then they began inching their way, tippy-toeing into the Home Page. Then, delivering unowned book search matches. And now, I guess, peoples' Bible study. Probably rationalizing 'take your Bible study to the next level!!'.
I'm not so concerned with the literalness of that (ignoring its mindlessness). Rather the staff (and I guess the leadership) that is now comfortable with mixing commercialism and Bible study. Sort of a desperation.
And the NT certainly had its validating example ... Paul placed tent adverts in his epistles (3 sizes, if I remember correctly). Jesus was offering free resurrection promos. (If this sounds gross, it's meant to illustrate the issue).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Yep, taking us to the "next level" of Bible Study...I like that!
And a few minutes ago I was prompted to "refresh" the Logos web app. And guess what? Now the same webinar advertisement is showing up in my workspace on the web app...expecting me to close / respond to the message. Well, at least they are consistent! (Or, should I say persistent?)
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Wayne, I've checked with the team and this banner was sent to a limited number of academic users to help them get the most out of their Research Subscription or Custom Library. Academic Institutions we partner with have encouraged us to better support their students with training, and this banner is part of a drive to do that. We're very conscious that users don't want to be interrupted with ads, and we're trying very hard to only show messages here when they're genuinely valuable to you.
You can close the message by clicking the close button in the top right corner. If you do, that banner won't come back.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We're very conscious that users don't want to be interrupted with ads, and we're trying very hard to only show messages here when they're genuinely valuable to you.
Mark, Logos should not ever deem that some product or offer or training mentioned in a banner ad is "genuinely valuable" to a person who is in the midst of studying the Bible. Never. Such a service might be "genuinely valuable" to a user but there are plenty of other ways to inform them of it, through the Home Page or email. Do not ever push ads at people while they are studying the Bible. I guarantee you, no Logos user will be glad for that interruption. You will earn ill will among longtime loyal users and new users alike.
You need to push back at the institutions you partner with to tell them you will not be doing this anymore.
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Rosie...I wholeheartedly agree!!
Mark...thanks for the update. But the resolution for me is somewhat disconcerting. Suddenly the webinar advertisements on both the web app and my L10 Desktop (Windows) "magically" disappeared. I did NOT click the "x" to close the banner in the web app (Google Chrome) or on my L10 Windows installation. The banners have simply disappeared. For the Desktop App, maybe it was the result of the normal "synchronization" process--but I'll be frank...that is somewhat disconcerting that after posting about the issue, the issue "magically" goes away. (I guess I should be grateful that Logos saved me from having to perform two mouse clicks! [:P] And now I will never know what was at the other end of the link in the advertisement. [;)])
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Rosie Perera said:
Mark, Logos should not ever deem that some product or offer or training mentioned in a banner ad is "genuinely valuable" to a person who is in the midst of studying the Bible.
I agree, and these banners should not interrupt study. That was something I insisted on. Therefore, they're timed only to appear when the user has finished their study, or hasn't yet started their study.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We're very conscious that users don't want to be interrupted with ads, and we're trying very hard to only show messages here when they're genuinely valuable to you.
This sentence contains theology with which I vehemently disagree - the concept that any message (other than getting someone out of a burning building or line of fire or building being demolish) is more valuable/important than conversing with God through the Holy Scripture is theologically absurd in my tradition.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Therefore, they're timed only to appear when the user has finished their study, or hasn't yet started their study.
In my tradition, there is no way for the system to determine this ... Bible study often begins with preparation before turning the computer on and with contemplation and prayer of the scripture that can interrupt the computer portion for hours.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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This thread is getting worse by the hour. First, it's not accidental. Not marketing staff run amok. It's even been thought out. And finally there's an egg-timer for Bible study. What happened when Bob left?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Rosie Perera said:
Mark, Logos should not ever deem that some product or offer or training mentioned in a banner ad is "genuinely valuable" to a person who is in the midst of studying the Bible.
I agree, and these banners should not interrupt study. That was something I insisted on. Therefore, they're timed only to appear when the user has finished their study, or hasn't yet started their study.
The idea that a person can only be studying the Bible when they are actively clicking on things in the software is ludicrous. Opening the app to a layout where the Bible is visible and sitting there for 30 minutes could constitute Bible study. They could be reading on the screen and rereading again, praying, doing Lectio Divina, etc. Logos has no idea when a person starts or ends their Bible Study if they have the app open and it's not on the Home Page which is known as a place where people will be bombarded with advertising. Unless people have specifically opted IN to receive banner ads elsewhere in the app, I strongly denounce putting advertising banners up in the main part of the app.
It is sad to see how quickly someone who on the "outside" as an MVP was an advocate for what users want get sucked into the Logos machine once they get hired. I know you mean well. I'm glad to see you insisted that these banners should not interrupt study, but I think you need to rethink what constitutes study and go back to the powers that be on this one. This is very disheartening.
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Rosie Perera said:
The idea that a person can only be studying the Bible when they are actively clicking on things in the software is ludicrous.
That isn't what I said.
I appreciate this is a sensitive area. I understand all the reasons why people in this thread think it's a bad idea. As Rosie has suggested, if I wasn't on staff, I'd be saying many of the same things that you guys are. But I am on staff, and therefore I know both the intent and the thought behind this:
- Many, many users will never see anything in this space. Even those who do will only see it a few times a year at most – less, probably.
- We're not using this space simply for "ads", but for informational messaging we genuinely believe you want to see. (We won't always get that right – as in this case for Wayne – but that is the intent.) If you ever see one of these banners that says "Save $20 off XXX", tell me straight away. It will be an error.
- We have thought very carefully about when to show this banner. We don't want it to interrupt you. We know that our users often take time away from their keyboard and mouse to pray and reflect on what they're reading, and we've built that into the mechanism. It's not a simple timer.
- This feature replaces Logos Messages, which was even more intrusive. It was a large popup that covered the lower right of the workspace, so might not even be able to see your Bible or whatever panels you had there. We showed messages so infrequently you might have forgotten they were there – and banners will be similarly infrequent.
- There's a program setting to turn it off. If you already turned off Messages, this banner will be turned off too.
- We're carefully tracking how users interact with these banners. If many people close them quickly or disable them, we'll know we've got it wrong, and they're not useful, and we'll stop sending them.
Ultimately, we're on a mission to help more people gain more insights in studying the Bible, and this is one of many ways we're trying to help people to do that better. Lots of people have told us that they find that difficult and sometimes struggle to get started using Logos. We want to support those users. We're not trying to sell anything to Wayne or others who saw this banner. This messaging was for a free series of seminars that are run by our user education team, not our marketing team. The seminars are about learning, not about buying.
I'm genuinely sorry that some of you feel this is beyond the pale. I'm confident our motives are right, and I'm hopeful that in practice, this will mostly become a non-issue because you might not even ever see a banner, and if you do, you'll hopefully feel that it was useful and you weren't interrupted. But please do keep giving feedback. If you see a banner you don't like, or even if you see a banner that you do like at an inconvenient time, please let us know.
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This is getting progressively stranger:
- eMails: far better. Why is more tippy-toeing into Bible study so critical?
- Where is the pressure from; there's obviously pressure?
- If most will never see it, it must be badly ineffective?
- All platforms? During chuch services?
- What is Logos, now?
There has to be more to the story, knowing such an irritant.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Rosie Perera said:
Mark, Logos should not ever deem that some product or offer or training mentioned in a banner ad is "genuinely valuable" to a person who is in the midst of studying the Bible.
I agree, and these banners should not interrupt study. That was something I insisted on. Therefore, they're timed only to appear when the user has finished their study, or hasn't yet started their study.
I don’t buy this as a valid argument. They should not show up at all on the workspace.
“finished their study” should be “when they close their workspace.”
”hasn’t started their study“ should be “before they open their workspace.”
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
There's a program setting to turn it off. If you already turned off Messages, this banner will be turned off too
Did you mean "Show Banners"?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mark...you mentioned about turning off messages / banner. Unless I am mistaken, there is only one switch--turn ON or OFF banners. I don't mind the banners showing on my Home Page. In fact, I WANT them on my Home Page; I just don't want them showing in my workspace. I have only been using Logos since L4 and have used every version since then; I apologize, but I do not recall ever seeing an "advertisement" like the webinar add in my workspace.
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Make a banners page if you want. I will go look at banners if I want on my schedule.
Just don't make me look at banners in my space on your schedule. I don't want that. Ever.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The seminars are about learning, not about buying
The intent is good, but in practice, it isn't. Every single Logos-produced training video I've ever watched (outside the shorts when a new version is released) had ads in it. The current "Deep Dive" webinars are about 12 minutes of (relatively shallow) instruction with 3-5 minutes of sales at the end, for example.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:If many people close them quickly or disable them, we'll know we've got it wrong
I think this thread is a fairly good indicator that someone got it wrong, LOL. I feel bad for Mark as he is genuinely trying to help, and I don't want to be critical of that at all. Mark has always been one of the bright lights for us users. But IMO, the marketing and/or training folks who built this need to admit it was a bad call and quietly walk away.
(And FWIW, I'm not meaning to be overly critical of the Deep Dive webinars, either...Scott is an excellent presenter; for a beginner, the vids are probably very helpful...but they are not 'deep dives' by any means...I was using them as a concrete example of marketing practice in training material. Any criticism from me is reserved for how they are named, not the content or the presentation.)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Many, many users will never see anything in this space. Even those who do will only see it a few times a year at most – less, probably.
Oh good, it is great that you won't be invading my space but it is okay to invade other individual's spaces...sigh.
Peace and all good.
KSC
“Let us begin, brothers, to serve the Lord God, for up until now we have done little or nothing.” St. Francis of Assisi
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Wayne Clarke said:
Unless I am mistaken, there is only one switch--turn ON or OFF banners. I don't mind the banners showing on my Home Page. In fact, I WANT them on my Home Page; I
This setting controls the banner that you're unhappy with.
Banners on the home page are controlled with a settings cog there.
So if you turn this setting off, you'll still be able to get banners on the home page if you want them.
I'm sorry this isn't clearer.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
I'm sorry this isn't clearer.
Mark,
It seems to me that the message in this thread is not clear for you at Logos. No ads, banners or the like in the Logos app (except for the homepage). Not for what reason marketing invents. Never. Ever.
And please not even the possibility to toggle them on/off. Because I fear this will be holding the door a little open for a future dismissing the possibility to tum them off.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
This setting controls the banner that you're unhappy with. Banners on the home page are controlled with a settings cog there. So if you turn this setting off, you'll still be able to get banners on the home page if you want them. I'm sorry this isn't clearer.
Thank you Mark.
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I got my first ad yesterday.
Very annoying and UNWANTED.
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I got my first ad yesterday.
Very annoying and UNWANTED.
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Adding my voice that ‘messaging’ no matter the intent behind it in a user’s workspace is unacceptable.
Logos leadership seem to have a serious lack of ability to read the room when it comes to intruding upon a persons workspace.This is a line Logos should not cross . if this impacted only one user, it is one user too many impacted.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Rosie Perera said:The idea that a person can only be studying the Bible when they are actively clicking on things in the software is ludicrous.
That isn't what I said.
I appreciate this is a sensitive area. I understand all the reasons why people in this thread think it's a bad idea. As Rosie has suggested, if I wasn't on staff, I'd be saying many of the same things that you guys are. But I am on staff, and therefore I know both the intent and the thought behind this:
- Many, many users will never see anything in this space. Even those who do will only see it a few times a year at most – less, probably.
- We're not using this space simply for "ads", but for informational messaging we genuinely believe you want to see. (We won't always get that right – as in this case for Wayne – but that is the intent.) If you ever see one of these banners that says "Save $20 off XXX", tell me straight away. It will be an error.
- We have thought very carefully about when to show this banner. We don't want it to interrupt you. We know that our users often take time away from their keyboard and mouse to pray and reflect on what they're reading, and we've built that into the mechanism. It's not a simple timer.
- This feature replaces Logos Messages, which was even more intrusive. It was a large popup that covered the lower right of the workspace, so might not even be able to see your Bible or whatever panels you had there. We showed messages so infrequently you might have forgotten they were there – and banners will be similarly infrequent.
- There's a program setting to turn it off. If you already turned off Messages, this banner will be turned off too.
- We're carefully tracking how users interact with these banners. If many people close them quickly or disable them, we'll know we've got it wrong, and they're not useful, and we'll stop sending them.
Ultimately, we're on a mission to help more people gain more insights in studying the Bible, and this is one of many ways we're trying to help people to do that better. Lots of people have told us that they find that difficult and sometimes struggle to get started using Logos. We want to support those users. We're not trying to sell anything to Wayne or others who saw this banner. This messaging was for a free series of seminars that are run by our user education team, not our marketing team. The seminars are about learning, not about buying.
I'm genuinely sorry that some of you feel this is beyond the pale. I'm confident our motives are right, and I'm hopeful that in practice, this will mostly become a non-issue because you might not even ever see a banner, and if you do, you'll hopefully feel that it was useful and you weren't interrupted. But please do keep giving feedback. If you see a banner you don't like, or even if you see a banner that you do like at an inconvenient time, please let us know.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Rosie Perera said:
Mark, Logos should not ever deem that some product or offer or training mentioned in a banner ad is "genuinely valuable" to a person who is in the midst of studying the Bible.
I agree, and these banners should not interrupt study. That was something I insisted on. Therefore, they're timed only to appear when the user has finished their study, or hasn't yet started their study.
Mark I agree with Rosie, you are going to do more harm than good with this type of marketing. No banners in the layouts please.
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Simon’s Brother said:
This is a line Logos should not cross . if this impacted only one user, it is one user too many impacted.
Well said my friend. Can't say it better, so I am not going to try to add anything!
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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