Removing titles from the Logos platform
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
There has always been heretical "Christian" works that I would consider potentially more dangerous to children/grandchildren than a kid's grimoire. The kid's grimoire is easy to teach kids to read with discernment/amusement. Some of the heretical works are far more difficult to teach the children why it is dangerous.
I guess that I am in the minority and disagree with you, JT and DMB on whether or not these books go against the will of God. I would never teach a child to read by giving them a witchcraft book. I can’t even comprehend that.
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Rick said:
whether or not these books go against the will of God.
Hundreds if not thousands of the books carried by Logos go "against the will of God". They are called heresy (rather than schismatic).
I wouldn't either what I said was "read with discernment" ... I would let them read it as an exercise in how to choose their reading more wisely. But I also didn't object when my daughter and her BFF were being rebellious and telling their high school classmates that they were witches. Their source of information was a Time-Life series on imaginary beings. Both were dealing with having been sexually abused when they were younger. I was glad that was their rebellion rather than drugs, prostitution, or street life. I was perfectly willing to simply smile and wait for them to outgrow it. PS. There were genuine Medieval grimoires on the basement bookshelves if they had been serious and willing to put in the effort to make them make sense.Rick said:I would never teach a child to read by giving them a witchcraft book.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Larry Farlow said:
Who made the decision that Cleis Press is a publisher with whom you want to partner?
Well, most churches I know have members with ministries for or members affected by or a community affected by sex workers, people denied their human rights, unjustified wars, ... the idea that because some of their books are erotica which is inappropriate for Logos justified depriving other users of the resources they need for the ministry for those who have been trafficked, sexual abused, denied basic human rights implies an insular church I want nothing to do. I take the Christian responsibility to be God's hands on earth very seriously. I do, however, strongly support your right to not purchase such works.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
So, which is it:
-Violence
-Erotica
-Graphic
Neither of these and it will probably stay for sale. That’s the sad part. This book is obviously dangerous to children. I’m guessing that you don’t think it is. If you want to continue supporting these publishers and authors, that is your choice. However, I believe supporting witchcraft is anti-Christian. You may find that idiotic and laugh but it is my firmly held belief. I really don’t think I am alone in this belief, but apparently it is a close call in these forums.
In today’s world, it is hard to find a business that doesn‘t support anti-Christian teachings. When I have to shop at a place that I know is hostile to my beliefs, I go where I will spend the least, therefore supporting them as little as possible. Thankfully, for books, I do have better choices. Although I have not completely quit spending at Logos, my purchases have dropped significantly. If It is something for general reading or I don’t feel it has to be in my Logos library, I go else where.I‘m glad that Logos is trying to change things, but I will have to wait and see.
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MJ. Smith said:DMB said:
First, cookbooks (example) are much better in an cooking app.
Excuse me; you guys are sounding like Christians with a very shallow cultural presence.
I'm sorry to disagree. Let's stick strictly to the facts at hand. Smiling.
1. It's Logos Bible Software. Not Logos Cookbook Software.
2. Within correct Bible exegesis, there's only 3 (three) instances of recipes needed (this might be understated)
- Making a stew so delicious, that just the aroma can cause one to give up a birthright.
- Being able to determine the exact quantity of 'little' (as in, 'a little leaven'. Remember, the disciples only knew fish-broiling, which needed no recipe).
- Sacrificial animal cooking, to maximize aromas reaching into the heavens.
- Some speculation does surround feeding angels, but no recipes have been identified (Sarah, I guess). Not sure about the risen Jesus.
3. Wine is a different issue (best watering practices, determining the 'best' wine, and skins for carrying along ones journey).
Actually, my comment didn't question cookbooks per se; rather being all mixed up with religious volumes, both during sale, and use.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Rick said:
This book is obviously dangerous to children.
We can agree to disagree - the issue is not the content but rather how gullible children are and how to teach children to be able to choose their reading appopriately -- I believe one has to let kids make mistakes while they are still at home and you can help rescue them so that when one turns them loose on the world, they are able to move smoothly through it.
Rick said:However, I believe supporting witchcraft is anti-Christian.
Most of what I have seen of witchcraft is basically a combination of herbalism, disconnected religious practices, and improvised ritual. I tend to see people interested in witchcraft as ripe for proselytizing - they have a strong need for religion that they don't know how to fill. I contrast it to magic in which humans try to domesticate and control the divine ... a very dangerous practice. So, I see witchcraft as non-Christian and magic as anti-Christian. But I realize most people have much looser definitions between the two and therefore different reactions to the terms.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Yesterday 5:18 PMActually I was not referring to to Mr. Rustin's work but rather the erotic offerings of Cleis Press which they are best known for according to their own site. Several of their books were available when I wrote my post, and apparently they were removed prior to your post. I hope this clarifies my post and I apologize for any misunderstanding0
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Hi M.J. Yes I did take the time read a sampling of various offerings from an assortment of of the thousands of erotic/pornographic books that were the catalyst for this event. I did not read any from Cleis, as the titles were disgusting enough. I was unaware that they published some of the titles you mentioned, and I am grateful for your correction. In any event, the point of all of this is that offerings such as "Hard Rhythm," Wild Licks," and "Crimson Craft:Sexual Magic for the Solo Witch," and so many others, would seem to be inappropriate for the platform, and fortunately Logos appears to agree. I am thankful for their decision to remove material that is contrary to their stated policies and offensive (again, the erotic/pornographic tomes) to most (and hopefully all) professing Christians. In no way to I desire to interfere with anyone's philosophies of ministry outreach or child rearing. Sincere thanks for sharing the Cleis information, and for listening.
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John Norvell said:
fortunately Logos appears to agree. I am thankful for their decision to remove material that is contrary to their stated policies and offensive (again, the erotic/pornographic tomes)
I fully support the removal of erotica and violence from Logos and do appreciate those who brought it to the attention of Logos. My concern, ever since the first Dracula incident, is with the removal of items that are offensive to a few but also useful to a few.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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John Norvell said:
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Yesterday 5:18 PM Actually I was not referring to to Mr. Rustin's work but rather the erotic offerings of Cleis Press which they are best known for according to their own site. Several of their books were available when I wrote my post, and apparently they were removed prior to your post. I hope this clarifies my post and I apologize for any misunderstanding
No worries. I see that there was a several-hour time gap between my post and yours.
I agree that there shouldn't be erotica on the Logos platform. I just don't want Logos banning publishers wholesale since many publishers offer a breadth of content. Kudos to Logos for trying to provide a breadth of content while continuing to refine their filters for inappropriate content. I hope we can give them some grace while they do that.
We've had a recent instance of Logos pulling a title that wasn't erotica or promoting violence because a few loud users personally disagreed with its topic being on Logos. We were not given a reason why it was removed, nor did the decision seem to fit with their policy. I don't want Logos to get in the habit of bowing to that kind of pressure.
Hopefully going forward there can be more consistency and more prompt communication with users. And I hope Logos errs on the side of selling too many books than not enough. I for one am glad the Rustin title slipped through.
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Sent You a DM
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Hi Matt. I sent you a DM. Thanks
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Hi Kristen. I sent you a DM. Thanks
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You're late to the party. There were several erotic titles by this publisher available on Logos until recently. This publisher's focus is erotica and pro-homosexual publications. They should never have been considered as a source for materials for Logos, one or two exceptions notwithstanding. Whoever at Logos gave them access to the site did zero homework.
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Larry Farlow said:
You're late to the party. There were several erotic titles by this publisher available on Logos until recently. This publisher's focus is erotica and pro-homosexual publications. They should never have been considered as a source for materials for Logos, one or two exceptions notwithstanding. Whoever at Logos gave them access to the site did zero homework.
Not necessarily. All of this seems so suspicious. It wouldn't be the first time that the lobby of the alphabet people is explicitly tyring to harm a Christian business. I don't want to make any accusations, but it would definitely be worthwhile to dig some deeper to find out whether all of this had somehow been orchestrated.
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Gosh, I better act quickly to get such titles as "A Witches' Bible: The Complete Witches' Handbook", which gives detailed instructions for witchcraft such as setting up rooms for rituals.
I don't know anyone in our church who would even consider buying such occultic material.
Logos, please speed up the process and get rid of rubbish like this!
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Roger Pitot said:
Logos, please speed up the process and get rid of rubbish like this!
Well, let me see:
- Violence? Nope
- Erotic? Nope
- Graphic? Nope
- Our church doesn't like it: Yep
Standards are already dated.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
- Our church doesn't like it: Yep
I would argue that "Please don't offer books that promote the occult" has more in common with "Please don't offer books that glorify violence" than "Please don't offer books that our church doesn't like." Occult titles may not bother you personally, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that they're "off-brand" for a retailer catering to a Christian market.
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EastTN said:DMB said:
- Our church doesn't like it: Yep
I would argue that "Please don't offer books that promote the occult" has more in common with "Please don't offer books that glorify violence" than "Please don't offer books that our church doesn't like." Occult titles may not bother you personally, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that they're "off-brand" for a retailer catering to a Christian market.
Now, EastTN, let's not redefine english ... better to have a standard, 'we don't like it'. That's how businesses and churches operate.
And no, I'm not occulty ... but our town is. And violence isn't remotely connected. Serious?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Actually, other than erotic and violent content, most of the "our church doesn't like it" titles might be needed for apologetic reseach. That doesn't only include occult titles, but also sectarian, atheist, Muslim, cultic, heretical. Both academic and popular level, since apologetics also works on both levels.
And no, having such titles in your library doesn't attract demonic activity to your devices.
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DMB really?
I assumed people understood that I was saying I do not know any Christians who would touch such a book because it was an occult book.
Your definition of undesireable as violent, erotic or graphic is very surprising, I'm sorry to say.
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Someone at CT must have touched such book. https://ref.ly/logosres/ctmag17?ref=Page.p+249 and https://ref.ly/logosres/ctmag16?ref=Page.p+328&off=1839
James A. Beverly has touched it. https://ref.ly/logosres/e4a709e1fd6671b0227db4c56a9410e3?ref=Page.p+697 and https://ref.ly/logosres/relgnsaz?ref=Page.p+256
Marcia Montenegro has touched it. https://ref.ly/logosres/9780781411400?art=r13
Paul Carden has touched it. https://ref.ly/logosres/9781596366657?art=r28
One of the authors of the Dictionary of Cults, Sects and World Religions has touched it. https://ref.ly/logosres/encydictcults?ref=Page.p+519&off=1749
Searching the catalogue yields more search results in books by June Hunt, Ed Decker, Rose Publishing, Ross Clifford and countless more. Just because you wouldn't touch it doesn't mean that other Christians don't touch it. They do. They need to for their research. Therefore, we need these books in Logos too.
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Roger Pitot said:
DMB really?
Yes, Roger, really. Your church believes different from mine. On witch training, ours would probably laugh, in the same way Babylonian and greek idols were rock, and meat cooked over rock-piles would probably be pretty tasty. Jeremiah and Paul vs John. Better things to worry about.
But the listed categories are from this thread and Faithlife (initial post).
Now, the problem that seems to elude, is Christians work at Faithlife and are being purposely embarrassed (vs use the supplied email address), which isn't Christian, and isn't fair, absent clear standards.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Start Publishing has a distribution agreement for Ebooks with Simon & Schuster.
Harlequin is an imprint of Harper Collins along with Zondervan and Thomas Nelson.
I am sure you will find that many of the offending ebooks were from well respected publishing powerhouses for Biblical resources and Biblically adjacent resources as they also publish or distribute the content in question through imprints and distribution agreements.0 -
Roger Pitot said:
it was an occult book.
I assume you know that an number of occult groups are Christian, just as a number of magicians were Christians, and alchemists ... It depends on how broad your knowledge of church history is. Think John Dee, Eliphas Levi, Jakob Böhme, William Blake . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
Now, EastTN, let's not redefine english ... better to have a standard, 'we don't like it'. That's how businesses and churches operate.
I haven't redefined English. In what world would you suggest that "we don't like it" is a "better" standard than "because it promotes the occult"?
Your "[t]hat's how business and churches operate" is either a breathtakingly sweeping ad hominem attack, or a just a snarky rhetorical flourish. Either way, it isn't a serious argument.
DMB said:And no, I'm not occulty ... but our town is.
How is the presence of some (or many) in your town who are "occulty" relevant to whether a Bible software company should include works that promote the occult? Many in my community are avid consumers of pornography. Does that meant that Logos should carry sexually explicit works? Of course not.
DMB said:And violence isn't remotely connected. Serious?
I never said that the occult is the same thing as violence. My point is "don't carry works that promote the occult" as a criterion is similarly specific as "don't carry works that promote violence." No one has suggested "we don't like it" as a criterion. You threw that out as a paper tiger.
You may not agree with the view that Logos should carry books that promote the occult, but it's a serious view. Mischaracterizing it with straw man arguments and otherwise mocking those who hold the view doesn't help move the discussion forward.
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EastTN said:
Your "[t]hat's how business and churches operate" is either a breathtakingly sweeping ad hominem attack, or a just a snarky rhetorical flourish. Either way, it isn't a serious argument.
Neither breath-taking nor snarky. I read it in a Logos book just last week ... churches operate by member agreement ... if you disagree you can be quiet, or leave. And most Christians I know, basically church-shop on that basis.
As to occult vs violence, I was simply trying to recognize the Faithlife categories ... occult isn't one.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
And most Christians I know, basically church-shop on that basis.
Whereas most Christians I know find church-shopping an unfamiliar concept - one that needs to be taught in apologetics classes. Parish shopping for Catholics and bishop-shopping for Orthodox are, however, common.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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