Removing titles from the Logos platform
Comments
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DMB said:
I read it in a Logos book just last week ... churches operate by member agreement ... if you disagree you can be quiet, or leave. And most Christians I know, basically church-shop on that basis.
I hear what you're saying, but that's a pretty slender reed to lean on when you're attributing that behavior to "businesses and churches" across the board.
DMB said:...I was simply trying to recognize the Faithlife categories ... occult isn't one.
I get that. But it seems fair to argue that promoting the occult should be one of the Faithlife categories, and that the fact it isn't seems like a pretty obvious oversight for a Bible software company.
And yes, in saying that I recognize that it's important to include books that study the occult, study the impact of the occult on our society, address how to reach out to those who engage in occult practices, and examine how occult and related new age beliefs have filtered into and affected our churches. We also need books that study the growth of pornography in our society, the business of pornography, its impact on individuals and families, how to reach out to those who're caught up in pornography, and how pornography has affected our congregations. But just like none of that means Faithlife should carry sexually explicit materials (even though some researchers may need to examine them in the course of their research), I don't believe that any of it justifies Faithlife carrying materials that actively promote occult practices.
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EastTN said:
I don't believe that any of it justifies Faithlife carrying materials that actively promote occult practices.
I would like to be able to agree with you. The reason that I can't is that years in the forums have taught me that users have very different understandings of what is occult. And at least one member, in private communication, was unwilling to go with the dictionary definition so we could have a common vocabulary to discuss the topic.
1530s, "secret, not divulged," from French occulte and directly from Latin occultus "hidden, concealed, secret," past participle of occulere "cover over, conceal," from assimilated form of ob "over" (see ob-) + a verb related to celare "to hide" (from PIE root *kel- (1) "to cover, conceal, save"). Meaning "not apprehended by the mind, beyond the range of understanding" is from 1540s. The association with the supernatural sciences (magic, alchemy, astrology, etc.) dates from 1630s. A verb occult "to keep secret, conceal" (c.1500, from Latin occultare) is obsolete.
- The meaning "secret, not divulged" does not apply as if it is published in a book, it is by definition divulged.
- The meaning "beyond the range of understanding" must be included in Logos if Logos is to carry apophatic theology books.
- The association with supernatural science is just that, an association not a definition. But surely Logos doesn't want to remove all study of the supernatural which would include all the "I died and saw heaven", "I was miraculously healed", "I've seen my guardian angel" ... type books.
So when you say you want to ban books "that actively promote occult practices," what do you mean? I know people for whom it would include meditation and contemplation, yoga, mysticism ... oops, there goes Paul and John ...
Interesting cases in the (super)natural science category:
- Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power: Meyer, Marvin W., Smith, Richard: 9780691004587: Amazon.com: Books
- Magic in Christianity: From Jesus to the Gnostics: Conner, Robert: 9781906958619: Amazon.com: Books
- Ritual Purification, Exorcism & Defensive Magic (IHS Study Guide Series): Stavish, Mark, DeStefano III, Alfred: 9781722494834: Amazon.com: Books
- Magic In The Bible: Goudsward, Ken, Willis, Jim: 9781999216085: Amazon.com: Books
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
I hear what you're saying, but that's a pretty slender reed to lean on ....
Totally unrelated to the present discussion, but your metaphor brought back a nice study I think last week from Isa 36:6 and Eze 29:6-7 ... especially the 'bruised cane' and translation, then laying open the hand ... splinter? I assume a common occurance.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
I would like to be able to agree with you. The reason that I can't is that years in the forums have taught me that users have very different understandings of what is occult...
MJ. Smith said:So when you say you want to ban books "that actively promote occult practices," what do you mean? I know people for whom it would include meditation and contemplation, yoga, mysticism ... oops, there goes Paul and John ...
Very few things in life have absolutely clean, razor-sharp lines. When does violence become "gratuitous"? Exactly when does sexually suggestive become sexually explicit? There will always be borderline cases where reasonable people will disagree. But I would argue that we abrogate our responsibilities when we use that inevitable ambiguity as an excuse for refusing to make any judgments at all.
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A simple search for "Lover", "Harlequin", "witch", "magic", "Cannabis" etc... shows MANY objectionable titles remain. "Harlequin" returns dozens of titles. Such content is not "resources" and there are not so "few" that you need people to report them.
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Jan Krohn said:
Actually, other than erotic and violent content, most of the "our church doesn't like it" titles might be needed for apologetic reseach. That doesn't only include occult titles, but also sectarian, atheist, Muslim, cultic, heretical. Both academic and popular level, since apologetics also works on both levels.
So then, given this logic (which I agree with), can we have titles that take an affirming stance toward LGTBQ people and not ban them or the publishers that publish them wholesale? Can we have titles that take a view of human sexuality and gender that many (though not all) Christians may disagree with, as long as the title is not straight up erotica or promoting violence?
Christians need to talk about sex and formulate a sexual ethic and help their congregations do the same. That may mean some ministers would like to read books about sexuality (including homosexuality), gender (include transgender issues), feminism, sexual consent, and preventing/healing from sexual violence (titles the Cleis publisher sells). You may be taking a stance against what you're reading and offering an informed critique. (Informed critiques are always better than knee-jerk reactionism rooted in ignorance.) Sometimes you're even just challenging and broadening your own perspective though you may not be in agreement with what you're reading. There is a benefit to reading things you disagree with; it can clarify and sharpen your thinking.
The publisher in question (Cleis) also publishes a book called Good Sexual Citizenship: How to Create a (Sexually) Safer World. Reading the Kindle sample, I wouldn't mind if I could get that title in Logos as well. But if we ban entire publishers because of some of their content we miss titles like this. Another example would be The Transgender Teen: A Handbook for Parents and Professionals Supporting Transgender and Non-Binary Teens by the same publisher. These titles are not erotica, nor do they promote violence (quite the opposite).
I would like to have those types of titles in Logos to provide a breadth of perspectives and also be more informed about how the broader society is talking about sexuality and gender. But there seems to be a reflex in the forums that if it's in any way gay it should be immediately and summarily removed, no questions asked. People would rather have heretical and occult content, but never anything gay, not even for apologetics.
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EastTN said:
But I would argue that we abrogate our responsibilities when we use that inevitable ambiguity as an excuse for refusing to make any judgments at all.
I am not arguing that ambiguity is "an excuse of refusing to make any judgments at all." I am only discussing those cases of making the decision for OTHERS i.e. making a text unavailable. I assume people are capable of making the decision for themselves. And I agree that erotica and violence are appropriately omitted from the Logos catalogue.
I find Logos removing a title other than erotica or violence due to complaints repulsive and reason to qualify my recommendation of Logos. I see it as evidence of the denominational bias of the company impacting my ability to use the tool they provide as "applicable to all denominations".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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A week has gone by since I mentioned that a simple search for various words such as "Harlequin" shows you still have many titles that are not resources and I believe have no business being on the Logos platform.
There are still dozens upon dozens of such titles easily found. For a small sample, see the pictures I've included in this post.
So I have a question that I want a direct and simple yes or no answer to.
Will harlequin romance titles be remaining on the Logos platform as acceptable?0 -
I've seen a lot of comments in the forum but no answers from Logos directly beyond the form letter boilerplate I received when I contacted customer service about wanting to expand their offering and not having vetted things properly. Why are these books still available and when will this be dealt with? What's preventing you from scrubbing these titles and putting in place a system that makes sure they don't get loaded again in future?
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I've never read a Harlequin romance although I almost did when a friend mentioned one that included riding a train through Lhasa. But do Harlequin novels violate Logos policy?John Klink Jr said:Will harlequin romance titles be remaining on the Logos platform as acceptable?
Matt Bennett said:If a title violates our standards against erotic, graphic, or violent language, we will remove it ASAP. You can send questionable titles to titlereview@logos.com to be reviewed by someone at Logos.
I suspect they fail on all three criteria for exclusion.
John Klink Jr said:So I have a question that I want a direct and simple yes or no answer to.
The forums are primarily peer-to-peer advice. While Logos employees interact frequently through the forums, it is not an effective way to ask questions only Logos can answer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Larry Farlow said:
Why are these books still available and when will this be dealt with? What's preventing you from scrubbing these titles and putting in place a system that makes sure they don't get loaded again in future?
Hopefully, people like myself who believe they can screen titles themself more appropriately than strangers (or those known only through the forums). And those, who like myself, believe titles must be available/visible to learn/teach how to screen them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ, I don't mean this disrespectfully, but your opinion is irrelevant to my concerns.
I want a direct answer from Logos, because at this point, I'm recommending people go with other programs and I myself will be making a change as soon as funds allow. I will not be purchasing any other titles from Logos. And I'd ask them for a refund, but it's a little past their 30 days return policy.
Bottom line, Harlequin "romance" serves absolutely no purpose in Logos, and they seem to be playing the "if we ignore them, they'll go away game."0 -
Here you are like clockwork. However, I wasn't asking you.
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John Klink Jr said:
MJ, I don't mean this disrespectfully, but your opinion is irrelevant to my concerns.
It is not disrespectful but honest.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I find Logos removing a title other than erotica or violence due to complaints repulsive and reason to qualify my recommendation of Logos. I see it as evidence of the denominational bias of the company impacting my ability to use the tool they provide as "applicable to all denominations".
I disagree. I also suspect (hope) that if we sat down and discussed this in a coffee shop, your position would be somewhat more nuanced than it's coming across in your posts.
I can think of multiple reasons someone might suggest that Logos stop offering a resource:
- Egregious plagiarism
- Copyright violations
- Libelous content
- Medical disinformation
I also wonder which denominations you believe would be ill-served if Logos decides not to offer books that promote occult practices such as wicca or modern paganism. If that's the kind of denominational neutrality that appeals to you, all I can say is that I'm looking for something very different. I could not in good conscience recommend to a brother or sister a Bible software package for them to use in Bible study if it places paganism on an equal footing with Christianity.
MJ. Smith said:Hopefully, people like myself who believe they can screen titles themself more appropriately than strangers (or those known only through the forums). And those, who like myself, believe titles must be available/visible to learn/teach how to screen them.
But why must every title be available in a Bible software package? That's ultimately where your argument leads, and it makes no sense to me. Would you seriously argue that Hasenat Quran Research Version 6.0, for instance, is somehow engaging in "censorship" if they choose not to include the NASB 1995 New Testament, or the Westminster Confession of Faith? Or perhaps Wicca Made Easy: Awaken the Divine Magic within You? Or that the Bar Ilan Responsa Project is somehow failing in its mission if it doesn't include the Apostolic Fathers?
I don't know - maybe you would. But I see value in software platforms, libraries and retailers that have a specific focus. And if you include everything, then you're focused on nothing. I suspect you recognize that, because I haven't heard any arguments for the need for Logos to include works on knitting, small appliance repair, or the works of Ray Bradbury and Arthur C. Clarke.
MJ. Smith said:I am only discussing those cases of making the decision for OTHERS i.e. making a text unavailable.
No one is arguing for making a text "unavailable" - Amazon will still be there, as will libraries, publishers and other booksellers. All we're discussing here is whether certain books should be in Logos. Suggesting that I'm arguing that you should not be permitted to buy or read any book you want is a red herring argument that's beneath you.
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Well argued, EastTN. My position is that Logos should follow the lead of the publisher in cases of law (plagiarism, libel, etc.) and should follow their own guidelines as given. They are free to change their guidelines but they should do so from a broad view of their market. As long as they present eBooks as a general feed with little screening (violence, graphic, erotic), that is what it should be. A small percentage of vocal users should not affect the equation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
And yes, in saying that I recognize that it's important to include books that study the occult, study the impact of the occult on our society, address how to reach out to those who engage in occult practices, and examine how occult and related new age beliefs have filtered into and affected our churches. We also need books that study the growth of pornography in our society, the business of pornography, its impact on individuals and families, how to reach out to those who're caught up in pornography, and how pornography has affected our congregations. But just like none of that means Faithlife should carry sexually explicit materials (even though some researchers may need to examine them in the course of their research), I don't believe that any of it justifies Faithlife carrying materials that actively promote occult practices.
That's not a valid comparison. I have linked a multitude of Christian scholarly books that quote directly from the occultic material that is in question here in an earlier post. Yet you will have to show me a Christian book, scholarly or not, that quotes from a porn magazine.
Thos are two different categories.
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John Klink Jr said:
A week has gone by since I mentioned that a simple search for various words such as "Harlequin" shows you still have many titles that are not resources and I believe have no business being on the Logos platform.
There are still dozens upon dozens of such titles easily found. For a small sample, see the pictures I've included in this post.
So I have a question that I want a direct and simple yes or no answer to.
Will harlequin romance titles be remaining on the Logos platform as acceptable?Have you emailed Logos directly? Matt Bennett said in his original post in this thread that:
"You can send questionable titles to titlereview@logos.com to be reviewed by someone at Logos."
Perhaps that would be more effective, and more appropriate, than posting pictures of erotic titles in the forums showing not just Logos staff but all forum users exactly how to find them. If you have already emailed them then my apologies. But maybe posting the pictures in here isn't the best way to handle this.
I have never once accidentally come across a single erotic title (I've been a user since 2015). I would not have known any of these titles were in the store or seen the cover art if you had not posted them here. Please be mindful of other users as you are reporting titles, preferably using the email above. And maybe stop actively searching for porn/erotica in the store. Logos has already said that they don't intend to carry porn and erotica and titles that promote violence, and that they are working to refine their filters to address this issue. They said that in this very thread. Just report the titles to the email and don't tell the rest of us about them.
This issue is being sensationalized in a way that is counterproductive because you're actually helping promote erotica. I know that's not your intent but that could be the effect for some for whom this may be a stumbling block. Please just report the titles to the email without telling the rest of us exactly how to find them or displaying the cover art. I say that lovingly, not trying to be mean.
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MJ. Smith said:
...and should follow their own guidelines as given. They are free to change their guidelines but they should do so from a broad view of their market. As long as they present eBooks as a general feed with little screening (violence, graphic, erotic), that is what it should be. A small percentage of vocal users should not affect the equation.
M.J., I agree with that. I'm arguing for a change in the guidelines, which I believe would be consistent with the brand they've built up over the years, their stated mission that "We exist to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in the Bible through a fusion of Bible study resources and powerful technology" and (I strongly suspect) the preferences of most of their customers.
Perhaps the real problem is that we cannot know, based purely on the forums, who the "small percentage of vocal users" actually is. I find it difficult to believe that most Logos users would support being as inclusive as you suggest, and so I suspect that those who would want Logos to include books promoting the occult are likely in the minority - but I don't actually know that. All I can do is make the best arguments I can for what I, as one customer, would prefer to see them do and let the chips fall where they may.
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Jan Krohn said:
That's not a valid comparison. I have linked a multitude of Christian scholarly books that quote directly from the occultic material that is in question here in an earlier post. Yet you will have to show me a Christian book, scholarly or not, that quotes from a porn magazine.
Thos are two different categories.
I would hope that Christian scholars would not, as a general rule, directly quote explicitly pornographic material. But I would note two things. First, there are a number of Christian works that address pornography and describe aspects of it (e.g., objectification of women, implicit or explicit violence, transgression of traditional sexual norms, prevalence of various fetishes, unrealistic representations of sexuality, etc.) that certainly suggest the authors have done original research. Second, pornography has become a recognized area of study in the broader academic world, and much of that work is not shy about quoting from the source materials.
It may not be a perfect analogy. But I do believe the main point stands, that you can distinguish between works that study a subject (pornography/occult) and those that promote the subject. My - admittedly personal - preference would be that Logos consider that distinction when curating their offerings. I also think it would be more consistent with their stated mission and the expectations of the average Logos user.
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Publishers don't pick and choose what they send they send their whole catalog and sometimes stuff gets through. They have asked us to help them police it so do that.
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EastTN said:
I would hope that Christian scholars would not, as a general rule, directly quote explicitly pornographic material.
Years ago, I had a lesson in how culture bound what is considered pornographic is. In second year Sanskrit, reading a religious text there was a passage that was so explicitly sexual that none of the students, myself included, would translate it. The professor took pity on us and translated the short passage. By our 4th or 5th year, we could laugh at our embarrassment as we understood we were imposing meaning on the text that was not intended.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Why is that our job, rather than their job? They're a multi-million dollar company.
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Exactly. Don't put your responsibility off on your paying customers.
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Yes, I've emailed them. So have many others about the same problem titles. I first saw harlequin romance titles years ago, and just assumed it was a fluke. Now that others have noticed even more problems, it's obvious Logos has a much bigger problem than they seem willing to admit. Others have emailed over the past month, and yet many of the same titles remain. So obviously, sending the emails are not working.Kiyah said:"You can send questionable titles to titlereview@logos.com to be reviewed by someone at Logos."
Perhaps that would be more effective, and more appropriate, than posting pictures of erotic titles in the forums showing not just Logos staff but all forum users exactly how to find them. If you have already emailed them then my apologies. But maybe posting the pictures in here isn't the best way to handle this.
I have never once accidentally come across a single erotic title (I've been a user since 2015). I would not have known any of these titles were in the store or seen the cover art if you had not posted them here. Please be mindful of other users as you are reporting titles, preferably using the email above. And maybe stop actively searching for porn/erotica in the store. Logos has already said that they don't intend to carry porn and erotica and titles that promote violence, and that they are working to refine their filters to address this issue. They said that in this very thread. Just report the titles to the email and don't tell the rest of us about them.
The problem is that the powers that be seem to be ignoring the whole mess, other than their original "we're working on it" in the original post of this thread. The only reason I "actively search" for such material at this point is to confirm to myself that Logos isn't listening. I posted here about it, because they're not listening to other avenues.
If it were one or two titles, well okay. But it is THOUSANDS of titles that are EASILY found. So how many employees do they actually have working on removing them? One employee working 40 hours a week for the past month should have put a serious dent in it. But it really looks like very few have been removed.0 -
Bingo.Protestia said:Why is that our job, rather than their job? They're a multi-million dollar company.
Right now there are so many titles it's like shooting fish in a barrel not finding needles in haystacks.
As for those seeking to justify certain categories of academic research as needing original erotic or occultic source material . . . .
If you're doing research into pornography or occultic recruitment of children, then it's a no brainer that your Bible Study software is not likely to have the source materials you want. There are dozens of areas of research a phD where this would apply.0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Years ago, I had a lesson in how culture bound what is considered pornographic is. In second year Sanskrit, reading a religious text there was a passage that was so explicitly sexual that none of the students, myself included, would translate it. The professor took pity on us and translated the short passage. By our 4th or 5th year, we could laugh at our embarrassment as we understood we were imposing meaning on the text that was not intended.
That's a good point. I've also read that there's a great deal of variation in what different cultures consider "swear words." In modern English they tend to refer to bodily functions. My understanding is that if you want to swear in Quebecois you'll most likely be making religious references ("blaspheming"). I read somewhere that the attitude in Quebec is closer to the way 1st century Greeks thought about things than the way we do.
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100%
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Matt Bennett said:
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You can send questionable titles to titlereview@logos.com to be reviewed by someone at Logos.
Yeah, but that won't appear on the Forums, so that if Portnoy's Complaint falls off the turnip truck onto a product page, no one can jump into a thread and declare: "... this material is vital for understanding the odd proclivities of 60s-era sex fiends."
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Again, why are we being asked to do their jobs for them?
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