Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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It means no more new output of courses from MobileEd.Neal Cook said:What does “dissolution of the Mobile Ed team” mean? I understand the words. I don’t understand the affect/impact.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.3.2 1TB SSD
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Jan Krohn said:
Using the same bucket for AI and translation credits doesn't seem to make sense... Translation is a feature that was paid once with the L10 feature sets, and AI tools are a monthly subscription.
If a user consumes all credits with a large amount of translations, he'd essentially lose the AI subscription for that month. He makes the payment for nothing, as he doesn't receive anything in return. The credits have been used for a feature that he owns anyway.
Prior to this, ownership of the Translation feature was already providing a monthly pool of credits for translation. The subscription adds to that pool of credits. This means is that if you don't use one feature a lot, you can use those credits on a different feature instead. Which is to say, you can spend the translation credits you already had on summarization instead, or you can spend the credits from the subscription (that were part of the summarization license) on translation.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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I just upgraded to the full feature set and I am OK with paying $120 a year to keep the software upgraded to the latest version with more consistent updates (it isn't just AI). I suspect the actual cost is similar to upgrading every cycle (which I tend to do). I'll add one caveat, I would need the ability to access my books and have a usable version without updates.
One thing, I would like, is if it allowed me to install the full version use on (2) devices, asking me to logout if I install on more than (2). Similar to Adobe. $120 a year for me and my wife would be good.
For those complaining. Almost all major software vendors have moved to subscription as a primary model, Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, Quicken, etc.
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Jan Krohn said:
If a user consumes all credits with a large amount of translations, he'd essentially lose the AI subscription for that month. He makes the payment for nothing, as he doesn't receive anything in return. The credits have been used for a feature that he owns anyway.
Translation was always subject to a fair-use cap. Users who have Logos Pro and a translation license will have a higher fair use cap than those who just have translation.
Keeping them in the same pool gives you flexibility because you choose features to use.
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Doug Yates said:
One thing, I would like, is if it allowed me to install the full version use on (2) devices, asking me to logout if I install on more than (2). Similar to Adobe. $120 a year for me and my wife would be good.
Logos is licensed for your personal use. You can use it on as many devices as you need.
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As a Logos expert user with a large library and an early adopter as well, I am always interested in trying out new tools. Logos and AI makes me excited about its potential.
Looking at what AI features Logos currently offers and its $9.99/m subscription, here's my takeaway:
- I'm not (yet) impressed by smart searching.
- I searched my books with the prompt: "Which commentaries hold the view that Jude did not change his mind when he wrote his letter?"
- 1st hit is a book review that doesn't say much about the question, and if it does it holds the opposite view.
- 2nd and 3rd hit are a commentary that holds the opposite view
- 4th hit is another book review that doesn't say anything at all about the question.
- 5th hit is an entry on 'Jerome's commentaries' in a dictionary that doesn't even talk about Jude, let alone my question about Jude.
- I searched my books with the prompt: "How are the Greek verbs ἀγαπάω and φιλέω different from each other in meaning?"
- 1st hit is a grammar that provides a list of Liquid Verbs that indeed does include φιλέω, but without any comment on its meaning and the first occurrence of the verb ἀγαπάω in the book is 73 pages separated from the page that contains φιλέω.
- 2nd hit is a different grammar that a list of copulative (!) verbs where neither φιλέω nor ἀγαπάω are mentioned, of course.
- 3rd hit is even more curious as it gives me the TDNT to the entry of κηρύσσω, zooming in on the Secular Meaning of κηρύσσω in Lk. 12:3. No mentioning of either verb from my prompt.
- 4th hit gives me some good translation exercises, but in none of the sentences I found the verbs I was looking for, and of course it didn't say anything about meaning.
- The Summary of search result is cool
- In both my searches from above they accurately didn't provide any information related to my prompt, so it could have saved me time by not looking at the context of the snippets myself (which I did for the sake of this feedback!)
- Summary feature in the side bar of a resource panel
- I let Logos give me a summary of the section 'Chronological Context' in NIVAC on Joel, p. 24-27:
- it gave a misleading representation by writing 'it is likely placed in early in Israelite prophecy' which is a rephrasing of '(...) has led some to place it early in the history of Israelite prophecy', while the author - if pressed - leans more to a date around 500 BC.
- it gave a correct conclusion that - according to the author - the book should be interpreted within its intrinsic literary context given the difficulty of dating the book.
- I let Logos summarize the chapter on 'Why Circumcision' from Heiser's I Dare You Not to Bore Me with the Bible:
- in general it gave a decent summary of the text
- it did accurately inform me that the chapter 'explores the historical and cultural context of circumcision'
- it failed to include an important conclusion for Heiser, that 'the evidence suggests that circumcision did not distinguish Israelite men from their foreign neighbors.'
- Logos summarized a section on Paul's Petitions in Ch. 3 of Carson's Call to Spiritual Reformation:
- it did a nice attempt to summarize 6 pages in a small summary
- I'm impressed by the summary of chapter 3. I am wondering if the AI summary of the chapter on my computer will be the same as the AI summary of the same chapter for a different Logos user.
- Unfortunately, it seems Logos will only summarize the smallest textual unit that has its own heading (e.g. paragraphs or sections or chapters). It does not give an option for the user to get a summary or the main points of a whole book. CORRECTION: it does seem to allow the user to select a summary of a section and a chapter. I haven't found the option to get a summary of a whole book. The options which section to summarize seem to appear a bit randomly and should be given more prominence.
- Sermon Assistant Tools
- I haven't tested them much as I don't see myself using them a lot, since I am not a preacher or a pastor
- I did try a different user case of the Questions tool: I copied the chapter on Why Circumcision? from Heiser's I Dare You Not to Bore Me with the Bible, as I can imagine that as a teacher that would be a helpful tool.
- I was disappointed to see only general questions that could have been applied to any text or sermon, such as:
- What was the main topic of the sermon?
- What Bible verses were referenced in the sermon?
- How did the sermon apply to our everyday lives?
- HOWEVER, when I - unintentionally - regenerated the questions, I was blown away by the content related questions such as:
- According to the sermon, why do you think the speaker says that circumcision sounds absurd? (Btw, I like it that Logos adds the words "According to the sermon" !!
- What was the significance of circumcision as the sign of God's covenant with Abraham?
- What evidence does the sermon present to suggest that circumcision did not distinguish Israelite men from their foreign neighbors?
- I LOVE the distinction between adult / teen / children's questions, as the latter are indeed much easier than the other ones.
Recommendations:
- the Smart Search needs significant improvement, as I found it pretty much useless for my research purposes as of yet.
- Summary feature in the side bar of a resource:
- make the options of summarizing a section of a chapter more prominent
- allow for summarizing a whole book
- allow for the user to generate a summary of the main points / arguments of a book or chapter, presented in bullet points followed by a brief description
- Sermon Tools: I have before pleaded for more tools and features for researchers and teachers. I am happy for preachers and pastors to have two more features added to their tool box, but I'd love to see more tools developed for teachers and researchers. Some of the new tools can be tweaked for other purposes, e.g.
- simply add the Questions feature to the sidebar of a resource panel. A very practical use case would be for book discussion groups to generate discussion questions about the book / chapter that a group is reading.
- Not related to the added AI features, but just the addition of another one: I don't think at this point, the new AI features would entice me to pay another $120 a year (especially since I also already own most if not all of the included resources). HOWEVER, if Logos could add an AI-driven text-to-speech feature for our resources, that would be a game-changer for me and I'd be happy to subscribe. This AI text-to-speech tool should meet the following expectations:
- a much more natural voice than the currently available computer voices
- a much better overall pronunciation of words in general (my computer voice pronounces 'rivers' as *raivers*!) and of biblical and theological names and terminology in particular
- ideally, a capability to read Greek and Hebrew
Thumbs up, Logos, for trying to integrate AI in the software, but for me the roll-out of the AI functions is a bit too early! Looking forward to see further developments.
Dell XPS 17 9700, W11, 32GB, 1TB SSD, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060
L5+L9+L10 Portfolio | Logos Max | Translator's Workplace0 -
Michel Pauw said:
the Smart Search needs significant improvement, as I found it pretty much useless for my research purposes as of yet.
Having played with it in beta, I would say that the way you phrased your questions was more appropriate to a chatbot than the AI enhanced search. Try using it more like the standard search without operators and look for the improvements more in the prioritization of results. A not very good example comparison:
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I need to be answered this question. Does it mean the subscription cost of $9.99 covers all the features as Logos connect or it is another story?
Blessings in Christ.
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Tes said:
I need to be answered this question. Does it mean the subscription cost of $9.99 covers all the features as Logos connect or it is another story?
It is a separate subscription and does not cover any of the features in Logos' other subscriptions.
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Yasmin Stephen said:
It is a separate subscription and does not cover any of the features in Logos' other subscriptions.
I have a Logos Connect subscription that ends in June. I also have a monthly subscription to Logos Pro. I am not sure if Logos Connect will continue parallel to Logos Pro. If Logos Connect continues to exist, I don't want to purchase the full features. I can combine Logos Pro and Logos Connect. But if the Logos Connect subscription is not going to continue, then I will have to purchase the Full Features. Otherwise, if I continue my Logos connect subscription in June and perhaps in October Logos connect is not continued, then I may have a problem. What is the solution. ? My decision is that I want to use all the features in some way, but I don't want to make unnecessary payment.
Blessings in Christ.
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How do you get early access? The early access page only has a link to mange subscriptions. No way to sign up.
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MJ. Smith said:Nathan Parker said:
I'm having a hard time understanding (with the exception of AI) where the "innovations" are going to come from in a Logos subscription
I'm hoping it will come from the finishing of some current features - and adding some
- Logos does a poor job of supporting multi-word lexical units. Adding n-grams to the Concordance would be a major step forward here.
- The Bible Sense Lexicon needs to add additional relationships and move to a graph/net display from the current hierarchical one.
- The search needs to recognize alternative spellings especially where American and British spellings differ.
- The clause visualizations need to be redone in a more readable manner - including having two diagrams face each other for translation purposes.
- A basic automatic sentence diagram for tree diagrams or an automatic building of the diagram from coding needs to be implemented in support of the above.
- Basic argument mapping and structural units need to be implemented.
- Chord diagrams mapping the Bible to liturgical use would be very useful.
- A complete revision of the liturgical calendar that recognized there are 3-4 basic calendars to which all major calendars map. This would including recognizing different names for the same date.
- N-grams of the use of liturgical terms over time so we can track a concept through time regardless of the terms used
- A network of a work's references so that influences of major works can be traced
- An easier way to create some standard diagrams from Bible text - text flow, arcing, argument map, outline, propositional outline ...
- I personally would still like to see graphic organizers (think Jensen) as workflows fill a slightly difference function.
Great points.
I've had a couple of Chick Fil A sandwiches today, so I'm in a happier mood this evening.
In order to be completely fair and objective, as soon as someone can confirm that the 30 Day Free Trial is working flawlessly, I may at least take the 30 Day Free Trial. I can mark it to not renew so I'm not charged.
I'm still not convinced that I would use these tools enough to subscribe, and I still really hope we're given the option to still buy non-AI, non-"cloud backed" feature upgrades as perpetual licenses, but I'm at least willing to take the free trial and report back here on what I think of the new features.
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Tes said:
So in this way I have to buy the full features and at the same time if I want I have to subscribe. Is this what this means?
Please see excerpts from Mark's opening post (it is best to read the whole thing):
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Customers who own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile) can purchase the subscription for just $9.99/month. When Logos Pro launches in the fall with the other tiers of subscription, you’ll have the option to maintain your subscription to Logos Pro or switch to one of the other subscription tiers at a continued large discount.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:I don’t own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set. When can I subscribe to Logos Pro?
If you don’t own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, you’ll be able to subscribe later in the year at a higher price. Or, you could purchase the Full Feature Upgrade now and immediately become eligible to subscribe at the discounted price.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Where does this leave subscriptions like Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite?
The subscription that will launch later in the year will replace Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite. The tier we're launching today, Logos Pro, includes exclusive new features, but there are a few tools and datasets in Connect and Preaching Suite that aren’t in Logos Pro but will be in another tier of the subscription. Most of the books in Logos Pro are different from those included in the existing subscriptions.
If you subscribe to those products, we’ll contact you later in the year to explain how you can painlessly switch to the new subscription. Until then, we recommend keeping your existing subscription to ensure you don’t lose any perks, features, or books. In the meantime, you could add Logos Pro to your existing subscription if you’re eligible.
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Even though I hate all kinds of subscription, I think it’s great that you offer one for those that like subscriptions. I understand that it lowers the entrance barrier into logos. And that will help more people use Logos which is good for everyone involved. But as soon as subscription becomes the only option you’ll lose tons of customers and will make enemies with some of your greatest customers. I speak as one who has a huge library and has invested easily 20.000 USD into Logos. As much as I love Logos, I equally hate subscriptions. Please always keep giving us both options. Buying packages for a one time price and offering subscriptions. I understand that AI features have a higher monthly cost. Then please separate these ongoing cost features from the rest of the package. I love my Logos as it is and while I’d like to harness the power of AI in Logos I’m not ready to pay monthly for it. Please don’t make the same mistake Adobe did. When they changed to only subscription they lost so many customers. They have the best software but that didn’t help them. Too many today have a subscription fatigue. Please don’t force subscription on us.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
If you’re eligible and want to subscribe, visit www.logos.com/early-access.
Thank you Mark and All. The www.logs.com/early-access page provides conflicting guidance. Toward the top of the page it says "Start a free trial of Logos Pro for 30 days, then stay subscribed for just $9.99/month." Toward the bottom of the page it says "Enjoy 7 days free, then pay $9.99 per month." It doesn't look like I would get a much in terms of access to additional books that I don't already own, but I would like to test drive the new features. 7 days isn't really enough time for me to really decide if I would want to continue the subscription. Does anybody know if the free trial is for 7 days or 30 days, or yet another number of days?
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Brad said:
Toward the top of the page it says "Start a free trial of Logos Pro for 30 days, then stay subscribed for just $9.99/month." Toward the bottom of the page it says "Enjoy 7 days free, then pay $9.99 per month." It doesn't look like I would get a much in terms of access to additional books that I don't already own, but I would like to test drive the new features. 7 days isn't really enough time for me to really decide if I would want to continue the subscription. Does anybody know if the free trial is for 7 days or 30 days, or yet another number of days?
Apologies. We thought we'd fixed this problem. We'll try again, although that won't be until Monday.
You can safely click on one of the buttons, and you'll be taken to a confirmation screen that will confirm exactly when you'll be charged. If you feel that's too soon, you can back out, and perhaps wait until we get a fix in place.
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Mark,
On the page with the how-to's for the service, it has a note about "Credits". "Because these features require accessing a third-party service, each request uses “credits.” Each account with access includes a fixed number of credits, which is renewed each month."
I understand the use of credits and that it runs out, etc. But I wonder how many credits a pro access account receives and how many credits are used per use of the different features?
-Jon
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Apologies. We thought we'd fixed this problem. We'll try again, although that won't be until Monday.
You can safely click on one of the buttons, and you'll be taken to a confirmation screen that will confirm exactly when you'll be charged. If you feel that's too soon, you can back out, and perhaps wait until we get a fix in place.
Thanks so much, Mark. You are working too late though. Please go enjoy your weekend. :-)
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
You can safely click on one of the buttons, and you'll be taken to a confirmation screen that will confirm exactly when you'll be charged. If you feel that's too soon, you can back out, and perhaps wait until we get a fix in place.
This brought back childhood memories of the lucky dip games we had at our New Year fairs ... except the items were wrapped (difficult to tell what you were getting) and you couldn't drop them back in after you made your choice.
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Ok, Here’s a question from the subscription page and its answer:
Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
We are 100% committed to ensuring you can always access all of the books you’ve purchased. No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content.
I own L10 Full Feature set, but this answer seems to suggest that you’re only 100% committed to ensuring we can always access all of our books, but nothing is said of the features. At least, it’s not clearly stated when it should be because we’ve paid big bucks to own those features. How is that going to work out for future releases?
DAL
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Why can't Logos just add the AI stuffs into the current Logos Connect? Logos Connect hasn't recieved anything good in these few years. I'm sure people would be happier with the news and more people would recieve more for their money.
$9.99 for AI is just wayy too high. $2.99-4.99 would make more sense. It's just a single feature. It wont make our sermon and it wont do our homework. $10/mo just waay too expensive for what it offers.
For $10/mo .. I expect Mobile Ed videos to be included or something. But for a single AI feature... It's a hard no for a lot of people.
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Thanks Mark, this is the most exciting change Logos has ever announced. I have subscribed and had a play around it is it fantastic. I expect that with the track record Logos already has of making improvements this will just get better and better.
👁️ 👁️
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Mike,
If I am understanding correctly, you are maintaining the latest features for $10 a month. AI is simply the latest feature added.
Instead of paying $240 to upgrade to 11, 12, 13, every two years, you are getting the latest version for $10 a month (with quarterly updates). I agree that AI on its own, with the current iteration, is not worth the monthly expense. However, to always be on the latest version and get the updates as they are released will improve the experience.
I'm not a huge fan of subscriptions, but evidently not going the subscription route is unsustainable (for any software company). Inconsistent revenue, too much sharing, pirating, etc. I generally keep my software updated and find subscriptions don't usually increase my cost. Ironically, it reduces the likelihood that I am subsidizing the cheaters.
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Doug Yates said:
Instead of paying $240 to upgrade to 11, 12, 13, every two years, you are getting the latest version for $10 a month (with quarterly updates). I agree that AI on its own, with the current iteration, is not worth the monthly expense. However, to always be on the latest version and get the updates as they are released will improve the experience.
Well, with the rental ("subscription") one pays $240 (over the course of the two year upgrade intervall) and upon cancelling the subscription one has nothing of "all the latest version". Paying every two years $240 for an upgrade to keep, at the end of the period one still has the then most recently released upgrade version.
Yes, without paying rent (subscription) one needs to exercise a little of being content with what one has during the time until the next upgrade, and one's stirred up desire for always "keeping up with the latest" is not accommodated every two months or quarter ... I would think that there are very, very few users who absolutely need or must have the newest latest feature immediately in order to accomplish the task for which they use the Logos software. So then, what's the big deal about having the current latest features and library and must have any future features "right now"?Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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So, in effect, we will be charged $10 per month to beta test new features for Logos?
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Bob Venem said:
So, in effect, we will be charged $10 per month to beta test new features for Logos?
Maybe.... but the features do work.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DAL said:
Ok, Here’s a question from the subscription page and its answer:
I own L10 Full Feature set, but this answer seems to suggest that you’re only 100% committed to ensuring we can always access all of our books, but nothing is said of the features. At least, it’s not clearly stated when it should be because we’ve paid big bucks to own those features. How is that going to work out for future releases?
DAL
Like I said before somewhere.... I think it works this way. I own L10. It is mine forever. I do not on L11. But I now have Logos Pro with the new features. No matter what, I can always stop Logos Pro and I will still have L10 to fall back on. That seems simple to me.
And... I am thinking (careful here)... that if L11 comes out... the cost of updating will be more than Logos Pro. Let's say Logos updates every year... and the updates do cost more than Logos Pro... then I (thinking again...) will be ahead with Logos Pro just because of the costs to update...
Will there come a time when I don't need Logos? Probably.... but during the time I need it (or want it) if I do the "rental" then my cost of Logos will be cheaper with Logos Pro because (in my thinking... careful again)... cost of updating is more.
And remember.... I never claimed to be the smartest kid on the block.... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Bob Venem said:
So, in effect, we will be charged $10 per month to beta test new features for Logos?
That's not my understanding - beta testing is separate to this subscription.
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It's taken me a while to get through this thread, but hopefully I won't overly duplicate what's already been said.
First off, I want to thank Mark and Phil for all the time they have already spent trying to answer the many queries. And for their patience!
Secondly, you asked for feedback about whether there should still be some sort of option to purchase a base package/feature set, and my answer would definitely be 'Yes'. Even as a business model I would think this would be beneficial to Logos. As has been made clear from this thread, there will be some who won't join the subscription model but may still be tempted to occasionally purchase a feature set.
My final comments are related to Logos Now/Faithlife Connect (FLC) users. I have been one from the beginning and still am, so I am concerned about this. (I'll preface my next lines by saying that I love Logos, have over 20,000 books, and appreciate all that is done by the staff at Logos to make this a great program. I'm just really concerned about this aspect.)
Personally, I feel like the manner in which Logos has treated its FLC users lacks integrity. I don't question the the intentions of Logos - I myself have had good intentions at times but later realised that my behaviour hasn't been up to scratch.
As a Logos Now subscriber, I was promised the following would be guaranteed:
- Early access to new features
- An additional 5% discount on all base packages
- Access to FL TV
- An additional 25% discount each month available on Lexham products
- 3 free FL Classic Ebooks each month
- 2% back annually on all my purchases
Logos then decided that it wouldn't (couldn't?) be continuing the early access to new features and moved us Logos Now users to FLC. In FLC, however, we were at least still promised that we would have access to all features of each new release when it came out. And when LN users expressed concern about the arrangement being changed again or dropped in the future, I distinctly remember Logos promising that this would not be the case!
And yet the following announcement indicates that FLC is being absorbed into Logos Pro (LP) at a significant loss of benefits but at greater cost to FLC users:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Where does this leave subscriptions like Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite?
The subscription that will launch later in the year will replace Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite. The tier we're launching today, Logos Pro, includes exclusive new features, but there are a few tools and datasets in Connect and Preaching Suite that aren’t in Logos Pro but will be in another tier of the subscription. Most of the books in Logos Pro are different from those included in the existing subscriptions.
If you subscribe to those products, we’ll contact you later in the year to explain how you can painlessly switch to the new subscription. Until then, we recommend keeping your existing subscription to ensure you don’t lose any perks, features, or books. In the meantime, you could add Logos Pro to your existing subscription if you’re eligible.
So, based on what I have read so far of what FLC users can expect, here is my current understanding (with additional comment):
- Access to all full package features (No longer)
- New features will be released when available, but in LP (even though we will be paying more) we won't even have all of the features we currently have access to - unless we agree to pay even more for a higher subscription tier in the autumn!!
- An additional 5% discount on all base packages (No longer)
- This actually got stopped before now (don't know when), but, again, another example of Logos reneging on its promises to FLC users.
- Access to FL TV (No longer)
- An additional 25% discount available on Lexham products (No longer)
- I don't use this every month, but I do use it sometimes and would certainly miss it.
- 3 free FL Classic Ebooks each month (No longer)
- My library is so big now that I already have most of the FL Classics that I want. However, I still find this very useful as I purchase base packages very strategically and use the 3 free books as a way to increase my discounts on packages. So I would definitely miss this.
- 2% back annually on all my purchases (No longer)
- This last benefit is a really big one.
To summarise (from what I understand so far), as a FLC user the bottom line is that I am going to be forced to pay more per year to keep some of the features I already have access to, and at the same time lose all the other benefits I had in FLC!! (I.e., LP: $9.99 per month = $119.88 per year, vs FLC: $99.99 per year.)
Now, Mark or Phil, am I misunderstanding what this is going to look like? I certainly hope I have gotten this wrong. Otherwise, I am very disappointed. I understand that subscription is probably inevitable to maintain services, but I just want previous contracts to be treated fairly.
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I have been with Logos since the early 90's and have seen a lot of change. Over that time I have invested in the platform and acquired over 9000 resources. I appreciate the hard work of Logos to provide cutting edge tech, resources and remain financially strong. As you move to this next step in your business model I would request a few wishes.
- Put value in the subscription plan. Provide monthly resources to justify the cost. A monthly subscription to a magazine/journal like Christianity Today included in our library. Offer discounts for subscribers. Free books for subscribers. Free courses while subscribed.
- It has already been mentioned but people with resources already in their libraries should have an advantage that you can't get through the subscription resources. Value your longtime "members" by keeping purchased resources above and beyond subscription. A subscription could be an easy way in for new users but make them longtime members by investing in owned packages.
- Keep the program functional offline. Sometimes we don't have access to online when we want to study.
- Keep the subscription cost low. $10 was easy for me to subscribe to but $20 is not worth it.
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I'll add my thoughts because not enough people have spoken up and this thread isn't long enough yet. [:P] I'm in two minds - as others have also confessed to, I've got subscription fatigue. A logos subscription feels like another hole in an already leaky bucket. Yet at the same time I get it from a business perspective, it means more cash on hand for ongoing development and maintenance costs, plus paying for the AI.
I'll sign up, already have in fact. I want Logos to succeed in providing quality tools to Christians so that they can read and handle God's word well, and teach it to others. If this is the way you think you can do that best, I'll back you. Couple thoughts though.
1. I'm not an old timer whose been here since genesis - my primary concern is not protecting a library I've built up over 20 years but on-boarding new people (especially theological students/new ministers) to bible software. I like that the subscription model means lower upfront costs for new users, that's great. However, I think a subscription model is still less attractive to people whose primary reason for using bible software is to access a Greek NT, maybe one or two grammars, and BDAG. Seriously - this is what the dozens of theological students and new ministers I know who use bible software have it for. Given the option between paying a one time fee to Accordance for the software and books, or an ongoing subscription fee plus books with Logos, almost all will pick the first.
2. And I think the main reason they will choose to do that is not primarily because of cost, but because of simplicity. It's just plain simpler to pay once and be done. I suspect this is Logo's biggest problem. I go on the website and I'm confronted with a multitude of packages and libraries, I open my software to hundreds of resources I don't know or trust, and dozens of tools I don't know what to do with. This subscription adds complexity, both real and perceived. It adds even more tools, more resources that feel like/are bloatware, and the ongoing payment makes me 'feel' incomplete. Whatever Logos ends up doing I can't stress enough that you need to aim for simplicity.
3. I'm keen to see what the resources in the different tiers look like, but at the moment I don't think the current books available with Logos Pro are strong enough incentives for a student/new pastor. I'm on board with the idea - you need to provide a large library so that the tools function. Agreed. But if the library doesn't match current ministry/academic standards, then the output from the tools is going to be unappealing and or perceived as not worth it.
4. I think the idea of a perpetual fallback license mentioned earlier in the thread has merit that is worth exploring. https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What-is-a-perpetual-fallback-license Sure, keep the AI tools as part of the subscription only, but having a core application that sees ongoing development which people can fall back on should they end their subscription (say after 12 months?) is important. People need the assurance that the resources the purchase will still be usable, and I think the perpetual fallback license does this.
5. It's been mentioned already but I want to add my support - offline access and functionality needs to be maintained. I and others I know legitimately spend time outside mobile reception, I need Logos to keep working in that context. Same goes for everyone using the tools in developing nations etc.
6. Instant Light and Dark mode only via subscription? Really?? That feature is seen by people to be a simple quality of life option, putting it behind a subscription paywall makes Logos come across as...not great. Please just roll it out as part of the next update for everyone to enjoy from the base/free level and up. [:)]
Current MDiv student at Trinity Theological College - Perth, Western Australia
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Mal Walker said:
I'll add my thoughts because not enough people have spoken up and this thread isn't long enough yet.
I'm in two minds - Well, when they went from Now to Connect, the page count was considerably less.
Luckily, the here-is-our-decision-but-we-are-not-decided-but-what-do-you-think, followed by we-are-pretty-decided-what-do-you-think is going as expected.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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You asked for feedback (thankyou for the opportunity) so here's mine:
I have spent a lot of hard-earned money on Logos (agonising many times over possible purchases, and over what would give me the best value for the savings I was looking at handing over to Logos). I have actually been actively saving up for an anticipated new release late this year.
However, I don't expect to sign up for a subscription service; if a subscription is the only option, I'll just keep the money in my pocket and use Logos (features and resources) as I've currently paid for it. I would also be much less likely to invest any further in resources.
I REALLY don't like subscription services, and pay for as few as I possibly can (because they all add up!), and if I HAVE have them, then I would MUCH rather they be yearly (that's kind of like a yearly 'new version' purchase decision for me; except I don't get to keep the features if I ever can't afford to keep subscribing 🙁).
I much, MUCH rather 'own' the software I use, and am happy to save up the big bucks to purchase it up front. Please let me continue to 'buy' major program releases (or app releases, in my case; I am a heavy Logos Mobile user).
Also, AI features simply don't interest me much -- certainly not for the cost. Maybe make those a seperate subscription feature?
I am much more interested in seeing mobile features fill out to better parity with the desktop software. Mobile is where many people these days (such as myself), and many future users, will primarily spend their serious Bible study time.
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Dr. Nathan Parker sums up a lot of my thoughts. Perhaps I like my present buggy whip but like improvements or corrections now and then. AI really does not get me excited. Subscription based services have their place but I don’t want to lease software; I want to own it. Perhaps a lease to purchase option would be okay. After a two-year lease of L11 I get to keep the features and updates, just not the AI connectivity. I would be okay with that. I do not subscribe to Microsoft365 for the same reasons - my old office works fine for me. I want Faithlife-Logos to stay financially sound and the company to be successful in its mission. If it were to close today I still have my L10 software functional and not tethered to a business. I have all of my resources on my computer and backed up to transfer to another if my computer were to fail and no Faithlife server to retrieve my Logos.
Bottom mine: Please consider some model of keeping at least a portion of what I lease so that I can progress in ownership of L11, L12, and beyond.
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I wonder who the third party is. Google? If so, then no thanks. I block third party cookies.
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Jordan Litchfield said:
So, based on what I have read so far of what FLC users can expect, here is my current understanding (with additional comment):
- Access to all full package features (No longer)
- New features will be released when available, but in LP (even though we will be paying more) we won't even have all of the features we currently have access to - unless we agree to pay even more for a higher subscription tier in the autumn!!
- An additional 5% discount on all base packages (No longer)
- This actually got stopped before now (don't know when), but, again, another example of Logos reneging on its promises to FLC users.
- Access to FL TV (No longer)
- An additional 25% discount available on Lexham products (No longer)
- I don't use this every month, but I do use it sometimes and would certainly miss it.
- 3 free FL Classic Ebooks each month (No longer)
- My library is so big now that I already have most of the FL Classics that I want. However, I still find this very useful as I purchase base packages very strategically and use the 3 free books as a way to increase my discounts on packages. So I would definitely miss this.
- 2% back annually on all my purchases (No longer)
- This last benefit is a really big one.
To summarise (from what I understand so far), as a FLC user the bottom line is that I am going to be forced to pay more per year to keep some of the features I already have access to, and at the same time lose all the other benefits I had in FLC!! (I.e., LP: $9.99 per month = $119.88 per year, vs FLC: $99.99 per year.)
We haven't finalized everything a subscription to Logos Pro (or one of the other tiers) will include. We're certainly open to retaining the benefits of FLC that users really value. Sometimes, less (stuff) is more (valuable). And one of the takeaways from FLC is that it didn't directly address a problem enough users had. So we're trying to learn from that as bring forward a tight, focused solution that directly addresses the needs of the market. But, again, we're happy to consider retaining what most find useful.
Part of what motivates this is to simplify the number of subscription offering to make things less complicated for our users (and ourselves!). We have several overlapping subscriptions:
- Bible Study Bundle (on mobile)
- Faithlife Connect Mobile (on mobile)
- Logos Explore (on web)
- Logos Now > Faithlife Connect (No Library)
- Logos Cloud > Faithlife Connect
- Preaching Suite
- Verbum Now
- Verbum Cloud
It's a lot, and where possible we'd like to take the best of these and consolidate into a single set of subscription options.
On price, we definitely want to demonstrate our appreciation for those who have supported us via subscription over the last 9 years. We're exploring various discounts, grandfathered pricing, etc., and we'll have more to share on that this fall. But we definitely want to ensure that you all feel valued in how we structure your offers.
We'll also ensure that we fulfill the full term of your existing subscription you've already paid for (e.g., if you're on annual, your benefits won't stop before your year is complete).
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PLEASE provide an offline feature set that can be purchased. I DO NOT like the subscription model.
HOWEVER, I have always been one to upgrade at every new release. So I would purchase an upgrade to keep forever but not a subscription model.0 -
What does this mean to Mobile users. As not all features are available on mobile. So will this mean that mobile will be on par now with desktop.
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I hope this question doesn't seem too far off-topic, but this announcement has affected my thinking on what tools in Logos I use, and how my question gets answered will eventually affect my response to this subscription.
I've been a part of LN/FC since the beginning just so I wouldn't have to worry about needing features. However, it's been so long that I honestly have no idea what plain vanilla Logos would be like. Probably 95% of what I do is simply read stuff, and another 4% is right-clicking original language words I don't know. Is there an easy way to experience plain vanilla Logos while enjoying all the books that I own?
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I agree 100% with Manuel Becker.
NOT interested in paying a monthly fee for ANYTHING. I also have well over $20,000 invested in Logos because I love it. If they stop offering the option to pay only for what I want, I will sadly be forced to look elsewhere. I pray they let those of us who don’t wish to support a subscription based program continue to use what we have without support issues.0 -
Good morning everyone. I am a 25+ year Logos user. I have been buying the upgrade the day it comes out since Logos 4. I have a large collection of books and use the program between 20 and 30 hours a week for Bible Study and Sermon prep. I love the program. Every preacher that comes through our church I tend to "evangelize" and make sure they know the way of Logos
But this news if filling me with sadness and dread. One of the things I have been doing is buying lots of resources when I can so that I have the best library possible to pass on to my grandkids. If I am understanding this new model, all the legacy aspects of Logos goes away because it is now going to turn from being owned to a subscription that vanishes the minute you quit paying. I do get that you keep your books... but with no functioning software to run your library, what good are the books?I want to echo the sentiment that I want an option to buy resources, but I am open to a subscription for some of the latest bells and whistles in software features. I want some clarity as to the ACTUAL plan soon. Right now I feel like I should stop buying resources until I see what is really going to happen with the required $ just to keep my investment working.
Reading over the massive thread, it seems like there is a lot of pushback against a subscription only system. Can we get an official walk back of this impending subscription doom
in light of all the negative response? Again, I do not mind a subscription option... but a complete subscription takeover fills me with dread and sadness.0 -
I still want the option to purchase a full, non-subscription version.
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Kevin Houghtaling said:
If it were to close today I still have my L10 software functional and not tethered to a business. I have all of my resources on my computer and backed up to transfer to another if my computer were to fail and no Faithlife server to retrieve my Logos.
Just for clarity, your backup is only relative to current operating systems. That's why Mark specifically mentioned update support for future system changes, no matter. Which is a good thing.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I haven't been on the Forums for a while and just saw this thread. Looks like a very interested and heated discussion.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:1Cor10 31">
It seems that in the future, feature sets are not going to be available for outright purchase, but only as a subscription model. That is totally fine. Businesses have a right to change.
But what about people who have always bought full feature sets? Will the subscription pricing reflect the price of only the incremental features? Doing this incremental pricing 10 years/20 years down the line is not going to be easy. What I see happening eventually is older features are tweaked, renamed, and become part of subscription model, so Logos will end up double-dipping (and Seinfeld fan?) into our pockets for features that we have already purchased.
This is a difficult problem to solve, and it's something we're actively working on. We won't be offering dynamic pricing on subscriptions, but we will be offering a healthy discount to existing customers, especially those who have always bought full feature sets.
I can understand that this is difficult. But I have spent a lot of money on resources and feature sets and am a longterm Logos Now Subscriber. I noticed a few times that the more I invest, the lower the benefit of the subscription. For instance, I have already all of the 3 free monthly eBooks (in English) that I get with my Logos Now subscription. And with Logos Pro, I only get 5 additional books. Please try to consider previous Logos investments.
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Armin said:
I can understand that this is difficult. But I have spent a lot of money on resources and feature sets and am a longterm Logos Now Subscriber. I noticed a few times that the more I invest, the lower the benefit of the subscription. For instance, I have already all of the 3 free monthly eBooks (in English) that I get with my Logos Now subscription. And with Logos Pro, I only get 5 additional books. Please try to consider previous Logos investments.
You hit the crux of the problem (mixed metaphor):
- Per Phil, the earlier subscription strategies haven't met expected targets (customers less than enthused, etc)
- FL really does need a consistent revenue stream, especially for its new owners
- But the more a Logosian spends once, the less value the future subscription is to the company
- So. Lots of un-promised reassurances.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I understand many people are riled up and that includes me. But I think it is helpful to step back and rediscover a big view of God. We have a just God. What a beautiful relief to know that no one - including Logos - can screw you because we have a just God. My God is just at each individual level. If Logos screws me with their new decisions, I can rest content knowing that my Welfare loss here will be made up by my God somewhere else. Maybe, my daughter calls me even more frequently so that my Welfare gain from my daughter calling more frequently more than makes up what I lose from Logos decisions! We can never be the losers because we worship a just God. So, let us not worry too much.But top management of Logos have to worry about serving a just God. Do they sincerely believe that their decisions will hold up to scrutiny by God? It is perfectly fine to take actions to maximize profits as long as your actions are fair to all the customers you serve. If you compromise integrity at the altar of profit maximization (and I am capitalist 100%), you are answerable to God ultimately. Given that people at the top seem like genuine Christians who want to do the right thing, I think we as customers can rest in the knowledge that there is no malintent. All of us, given our finite knowledge, can't see through all the consequences of our actions. And that might be the case with this rollout. I am sure they are listening and will do the right thing.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Technology evolves. Business evolves. Don't be like Blockbuster. Adapt or die.
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DMB said:Mal Walker said:
I'll add my thoughts because not enough people have spoken up and this thread isn't long enough yet.
I'm in two minds - Well, when they went from Now to Connect, the page count was considerably less.
Luckily, the here-is-our-decision-but-we-are-not-decided-but-what-do-you-think, followed by we-are-pretty-decided-what-do-you-think is going as expected.
Reminds me of a church that asks the members to write down the name of the person or persons who they think qualify to be elders but at the end of the day is just a smoke screen because the current elders have already decided who will join them as the next elder 😂😂😂 and it’s usually a guy with a degree who can’t even get up to teach because they lack knowledge! But hey, if it’s a business minded person it’s good for the church’s financial health, no? 😂😂😂🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Same here, whatever the company decides we’ll just have to embrace it!
DAL
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I am fine with a subscription model if helps make Logos sustainable. For me personally, the FC has been of great value. I have access to the latest features for a lower price than I can purchase a full feature upgrade. This has allowed me to invest more in Logos books. If Logos Pro is of reasonable price and provides needed features then it will work for me. An option to purchase the features might be value to those who do not like the subscription model. It does seem the subscription model is the direction of most software these days. Like it or not this seems to be the future.
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I liked the concept of Logos Now. The books and features I could own perpetually, but I was able to buy early access to features. So, if this is Logos Now reincarnate, bring it on! (Just joking on the reincarnate bit though!) The current Logos Pro is not good value at this stage when factoring in the books, as there is a huge overlap to my library.
Another non Bible software platform I have paid for an early adopter subscription. I get access to early features and special benefits, including access to a special forum. So to me, it will be all about the benefits of such a subscription. I think in any software community there are those who want to pay for and support the development of the product. An investors group of sorts
As already noted, Logos Pro at $9.99 / month and Faithlife Connect with no library at $99/year is steep, so the price point needs to be good too.
I get the AI costs. This will be with us for the near future.
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