How are Red Letters Determined in Logos?
How does Logos determine which are words of Christ and which are not? Is this set by tagging, and if so, are those tags dependent on the original translation/version and how it labeled the words, or is the test tagged generally so all the versions/translations show the same words as words of Christ?
(I was trying to look at a couple passages in John 3 but I don't have one of the versions I know that differs in how it labels the words as words of Christ, the RSV. All the versions I have label them the same way, so I can't tell how the text is tagged in Logos.)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
(I was trying to look at a couple passages in John 3 but I don't have one of the versions I know that differs in how it labels the words as words of Christ, the RSV. All the versions I have label them the same way, so I can't tell how the text is tagged in Logos.)
Here's a screenshot showing RSV and NIV with Show Red Letter enabled - so it looks as though they are tracking the translation
But the underlying Logos Speaker tagging is different with both of them (as far as NT is concerned) aligned to the SBL Greek New Testament
And this tagging has Jesus speaking up until the end of verse 21
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Doc B said:
How does Logos determine which are words of Christ and which are not?
- WordsofChrist (or WOC) is a Search Field, and therefore tagged directly in the tex e.g. WOC:soon
- It would apply only to bibles whose hard copy had the "red letter" WOC.
- Therefore the tagging is dependent on the bible, as with cross-references and footnotes
Doc B said:(I was trying to look at a couple passages in John 3 but I don't have one of the versions I know that differs in how it labels the words as words of Christ,
I could not find any bibles that differed (number of verses):
The result was 20 bibles (with WOC and RI's) --> the 66 specified above is misleading as it includes bibles w/out an Interlinear.
The count is influenced by the alignment with Speaker:Jesus e.g. a single verse could have 3 results or 1 result depending how the Greek words for Speaker aligned with the words of the translation.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Doc B said:
(I was trying to look at a couple passages in John 3
My quickie check on "who said what" is John 3:16. Is v.16 a continuation of Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus, or is it John's summary of what Jesus just said to Nic?
Quickly scan through the list looking for quotation marks at beginning of the verse. These I would expect to be in red if WOC in red is checked.
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David Thomas said:
My quickie check on "who said what" is John 3:16. Is v.16 a continuation of Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus, or is it John's summary of what Jesus just said to Nic?
Thus, it's a matter of theology and interpretation ... the red letter tags are set according to the translators', the publishers', the editor's understanding and preference.
In Logos bibles, I would think the tagging follows the red letter scheme of the respective print edition which served as the source for the digital version.Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
In Logos bibles, I would think the tagging follows the red letter scheme of the respective print edition which served as the source for the digital version.
I never use it but that was my understanding as the option only exists on certain translations.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
In Logos bibles, I would think the tagging follows the red letter scheme of the respective print edition which served as the source for the digital version.
In terms of Word of Christ tags yes, but not when thinking about the speaker:Jesus tag that is based on the underlying Greek text used for the reverse interlinear.
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Graham Criddle said:Wolfgang Schneider said:
In Logos bibles, I would think the tagging follows the red letter scheme of the respective print edition which served as the source for the digital version.
In terms of Word of Christ tags yes, but not when thinking about the speaker:Jesus tag that is based on the underlying Greek text used for the reverse interlinear.
It seems to me that the speaker:Jesus tag is only based on the underlying Greek text in a technical sense as the tag is within the reverse interlinear. But the determining factor of which words in the text should be tagged as Jesus' words is based on theological interpretation preference, perhaps also following how the print version of the English Bible marked the words of Jesus in red letters.
However, I did not check this with different English versions and their respective reverse interlinears ... perhaps someone with more English bible translations could have a look at this ?
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Graham Criddle said:Wolfgang Schneider said:
In Logos bibles, I would think the tagging follows the red letter scheme of the respective print edition which served as the source for the digital version.
In terms of Word of Christ tags yes, but not when thinking about the speaker:Jesus tag that is based on the underlying Greek text used for the reverse interlinear.
Graham is correct here.
The red-letter / Words of Christ tagging is taken from the print formatting of each particular Bible.
speaker:Jesus comes from Logos' "Reported Speech Dataset" which is annotated just once on the LHB and SBLGNT, then mapped into each English (or German, etc.) Bible via a reverse interlinear. It does not reflect any editorial decisions by the translation team of each Bible.
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David Thomas said:
My quickie check on "who said what" is John 3:16. Is v.16 a continuation of Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus, or is it John's summary of what Jesus just said to Nic?
Quickly scan through the list looking for quotation marks at beginning of the verse.
There is no necessity to have a quote mark at Jn 3:16 as the red-letter words begin earlier. Some versions re-insert quotes at the start of every paragraph in the red-letter, but that doesn't happen for v.16 in the YLT. And Darby does not use quotation marks, along with many of the KJV family!
If quotes are used, the most reliable method is the absence of a closing quote at the end of Jn 3:15.
A Search for WOC:salt in Mt 5:!3** will reveal your red-letter bibles and you can compare that result with a search for WOC:God in Jn 3:16. I found that TNIV and NIV 2011 do not include Jn 3:16.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
I could not find any bibles that differed
Neither could I, and that was what prompted this post, as F. F. Bruce talks about a difference between the RSV and the KJV in his 1983 stand-alone 'John' commentary (which I can't find as a Logos resource...I'm using a hard copy).
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
The red-letter / Words of Christ tagging is taken from the print formatting of each particular Bible.
speaker:Jesus comes from Logos' "Reported Speech Dataset" which is annotated just once on the LHB and SBLGNT, then mapped into each English (or German, etc.) Bible via a reverse interlinear. It does not reflect any editorial decisions by the translation team of each Bible.
This is the exact info I was needing and is the key to understanding what I'm seeing in the software.
It also makes for an interesting dichotomy in scripture.
[Y][Y]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Background to the question:
This all came about as a result of me trying to understand the textual variant "...who is in heaven." The tension is between trying to understand why Jesus would say he's in heaven when he's in fact sitting right there talking to Nicodemus vs the difficulty of the reading if the clause is interpreted as a narrative parenthetical inserted by John (vs, of course, scribal emendation).
Here's the variant and an apparatus for those interested enough to continue reading-
WH NU οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
“no one has ascended into heaven except the one coming down from heaven, the Son of Man”
𝔓66 𝔓75 א B L T Ws 083 086 cop Diatessaron
RSV NRSV ESV NASB NIV TNIV NJB NAB NLT HCSB NETvariant/TR ουδεις ανβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας, ο υιος του ανθρωπου ο ων εν τω ουρανω
“no one has ascended into heaven except the one coming down from heaven, the Son of Man, the one being in heaven”
(A* omit ων) Θ Ψ 050 f1, Maj
KJV NKJV NEB REB---------- and here's the more complete NA28 apparatus -
13 ⸆ ο ων εν τω ουρανω Ac (− ο ων A*) K N Γ Δ Θ Ψ 050 ƒ1.13 565. 579. 700. 892. 1424. l 844. l 2211 𝔪 latt syc.p.h bopt; Epiphpt
¦ txt 𝔓66.75 א B L T Ws 083. 086. 33. 1241 co; Eus EpiphptTrying to differentiate what Jesus said from what John said about what Jesus said can be challenging in this passage. My inclination is to lean into what the translators have said over many years, as they have a few hundred thousand hours more experience in the language than I do. But I still find it interesting to see what I think about it. [:)]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
This all came about as a result of me trying to understand the textual variant "...who is in heaven." ...
Trying to differentiate what Jesus said from what John said about what Jesus said can be challenging in this passage.
The textual variant is in 8 bibles with the red-letter WOC, but each regard it as spoken by Jesus (in Jn 3:!3)
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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