Logos on new Windows ARM computers (Copilot+ PCs) ...

Today is the day! Microsoft (and many other vendors like Dell, Lenovo, ASUS, etc) announced their answer to Apple's M-series computers ... Copilot+ PCs. Today the computers announced all run on the Snapdragon Elite X ARM processor. There supposed to be as fast as Apple's Mac Air M3s.

What does this mean for Logos Bible Sofware (and me)? I will be looking for an ARM compiled version of Logos! Until then, my Windows Logos software will have to be emulated (just like software had to be when the M1 processor was first released), which means slower 😒.

So, Logos, what's the plan?

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Rob Kuefner

Me too! Looking forward to getting an updated Windows machine and hoping that Logos has been working on this is the background

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Any updates about ARM support on Windows will be posted to this feedback item: https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/native-support-for-windows-on-arm

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298706#Comment_1298706

Thanks, Bradley for the link. Hopeful Logos will work well on this new device

Darren Swartzendruber

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298706#Comment_1298706

@Bradley - done.

Everyone else reading this ... please go to the link, comment, and vote it up. Thanks!

Zachary Rohman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1298706#Comment_1298706

Bradley, it has been over 6 months now.

We have now seen a SIGNIFICANT amount of Windows laptops running on ARM processors. Apple M1 laptops were supported, and we are now seeing like 30+ laptops running on ARM processors, and more are planned every year. This is not just a 1 time thing like it was with the Surface Pro a few years ago. Now we are seeing massive adoption of Windows laptops on ARM.

This should AT LEAST be in the discussion page, if not the "planned" stage on the feedback forum. Please escalate this.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323035#Comment_1323035

Apple M1 laptops were supported, and we are now seeing like 30+ laptops running on ARM processors, and more are planned every year.

100% of Macs are now ARM. What percentage of windows computers are? [Earnest question]

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323035#Comment_1323035

This should AT LEAST be in the discussion page, if not the "planned" stage on the feedback forum. Please escalate this.

I hear that it's very important to you to have an ARM-native version of Logos for your Windows computer.

We also have (many) feature requests from Intel-based Windows users and we have to decide where to deploy our limited engineering resources. So far, a port of Logos to Windows ARM hasn't reached the top of the priority list.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323132#Comment_1323132

I hear that it's very important to you to have an ARM-native version of Logos for your Windows computer.

We also have (many) feature requests from Intel-based Windows users and we have to decide where to deploy our limited engineering resources. So far, a port of Logos to Windows ARM hasn't reached the top of the priority list.

So how do you determine when the percentage of people who find this important? Or do you determine by seeing the projection of how many pcs are adopting Arm?

This link https://www.counterpointresearch.com/insights/arm-based-pcs-to-nearly-double-market-share-by-2027/#:~:text=Arm%2Dbased%20notebooks%20will%20gain,both%20daily%20users%20and%20businesses suggests that that Arm could have a 50% share of the Windows PC market by 2029

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323246#Comment_1323246

So how do you determine when the percentage of people who find this important? Or do you determine by seeing the projection of how many pcs are adopting Arm?

There's no hard-and-fast formula. We monitor industry trends of new ARM deliveries (as a percentage of all new computers). We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323252#Comment_1323252

We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base

Perhaps I am unique, but I choose hardware based upon Logos Capabilities [my first hybrid drive and my first SSD were based upon Logos search speed], not Hardware first then look for software. My last 2 upgrades have been due to SSD space because my Logos Library (video courses take up most space) is increasing. I know that Logos is watching for ARMs to be purchased before investing resources, but I waiting for Logos to invest resources before purchasing my next device. When the New Surface Pro AI machines came out, I stuck a pin in the purchase UNTIL Logos provides native ARM in the Windows environment. It appears to this user that Microsoft is moving towards AI and Logos is moving towards AI, but Redmond is waiting for Bellingham to set pace and direction [:D]

Chicken meet egg...

Bill Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323252#Comment_1323252

We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base.

I may not understand how telemetry could be useful to see how many Logos Windows customers are using ARM chipsets when they can’t run Logos on Arm yet.

Apple moved to ARM chipsets and it didn’t take all that long for Logos to release a native version. Compared with Windows users, surely Mac users are the minority. I would think it is reasonable to expect Logos to release a Windows ARM version along the same time frame, if not sooner.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323386#Comment_1323386

Apple moved to ARM chipsets and it didn’t take all that long for Logos to release a native version.

When Apple announced that Macs were moving to ARM, 100% of new Macs were moving there. Logos had to support ARM or drop support for Mac altogether.

I would think it is reasonable to expect Logos to release a Windows ARM version along the same time frame, if not sooner.

What percentage of windows computers are currently using ARM? (not many currently) How frequently do windows users update their computers? (less frequently than Mac users). How often does the "next big thing" come along on windows and then go to the trash heap? (Often).

The success of Windows on ARM is not yet determined.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323386#Comment_1323386

Logos Windows customers are using ARM chipsets when they can’t run Logos on Arm yet.

[Y][Y]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323386#Comment_1323386

We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base.

Is that "telemetry" based upon the web app usage? I do understand the others curiosity in how that is determined. If there isn't a native windows ARM app, how do you estimate the interest level?

I would think it is reasonable to expect Logos to release a Windows ARM version

I'm not trying to rile y'all up, but I do want to show you why things may not be quite as you think they are. In THIS link, it states: "At the moment Arm has an 11% share of the Windows PC market according to Counterpoint Research." By "market," I assume this means "of sales." If so, that would mean that the user base of windows computers on ARM is less than 11%. This article was cited above when it was suggested that by 2029, Arm <could have> 50% of sales. That number was an optimistic projection by the ARM CEO.

I also think that Intel is not going to go down without a fight. However, they certainly have much work to do to catch up.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323476#Comment_1323476

I am just going to assume that Bradley and crew are privately keeping an eye on ARM. It would be nice, however, to get some basic answers (from Bradley) such as:

1. If FL sees that it is necessary to make Logos work on Windows ARM, how long (basically) would it take to make that adjustment?

2. If Windows ARM catches on, and it is clear that FL needs to make Logos work on ARM, is it correct that FL would also have to keep Logos working on Intel as well for a number of years to come?

3. Is the work needed to see Logos work on ARM similar to the work that would be needed to see Logos work on Linux? (I know there are no plans to have Logos work on Linux)

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323520#Comment_1323520

If Windows ARM catches on, and it is clear that FL needs to make Logos work on ARM, is it correct that FL would also have to keep Logos working on Intel as well for a number of years to come?

I can't imagine that they would not. If Windows followed Apple's path and went 100% ARM, then support would fade (as it does already with old versions of OS).

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323476#Comment_1323476

I also think that Intel is not going to go down without a fight. However, they certainly have much work to do to catch up.

It may be too early to start a discussion on this, but very recent reports are that the instability problems Intel chips experienced with Raptor Lake have NOT been solved in its latest generation of Arrow Lake chips.

Before purchasing any Intel system be careful and do your homework. To the best of my knowledge, the problems were only present in the desktop series of processors, while the mobile processors were ok.

It is problems like this that might accelerate the trend into Windows on ARM.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/not-this-again-intel-arrow-lake-may-have-instability-issues/ar-AA1sMwNp">
Not this again: Intel Arrow Lake may have instability issues

Intel’s Arrow Lake is just a couple of days from hitting the market, and we’ve been inundated with various reports and leaked benchmarks. Today’s news doesn’t sound good, though. YouTuber Moore’s Law Is Dead reports that Arrow Lake, also referred to as Core Ultra 200-S, may have some instability issues — much like what we’ve seen Intel battle for months on end in Raptor Lake.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/intel-nasdaq-intc-arrow-lake-processors-experience-problems">
Just when one problem ends for chip stock Intel (INTC), another begins. The latest problem reveals that Intel’s chip instability problems may not be over yet, and the Arrow Lake set may be next to fall victim.

The Arrow Lake lineup, specifically the Core Ultra 200-S, may have instability issues similar to those seen with the Raptor Lake lineup just a few weeks ago. While the issue is not yet confirmed, the early reports suggest that Arrow Lake processors, which will be going live in days, are running into crashes as well as having some unusual benchmark test results.

These are very early reports and yet to be confirmed by solid research ... but it is not looking good for Intel right now ... Rumors are that Apple and Samsung have expressed interest in buying Intel.

This was from a previous thread here on the forum on Raptor Lake">
Be VERY careful in choosing an Intel processor. There are major problems which are still unresolved.

There is no fix for Intel’s crashing 13th and 14th Gen CPUs — any damage is permanent

Intel chip bug FAQ:

For the past few months, consumers with desktop PCs running 13th- or 14th-generation Raptor Lake Intel Core CPUs have been plagued by crashes and instability issues.

Given the problems with recent Intel chips and the lack of Logos support for the new Windows on ARM operating system ... I would recommend you go with an iMac.

My opinion: These problems do not mean a laptop with Intel mobile processor could not be a good deal right now. Even the Raptor Lake desktop chips are being recommended by at least one guy due to large price drop. But personally I would steer clear of any Intel desktop chip right now. If Windows 11 is what you intend to run, also avoid Intel motherboards, as they are having issues too.

If you want to run Logos on Windows, there are only two good choices for a desktop machine right now ... Older Intel chips, 12th Generation or earlier ... before the problems began. These chips also have the advantage that they are cheaper. Or AMD. I do not know much about AMD so I cannot give specific advice.

Or you could go with a laptop. You can use a laptop on a desktop. You can use a large monitor and a real desktop keyboard.

I personally would avoid Windows 11. Logos will drop support for Windows 10 when Microsoft does ... and to stay current you will have to give Microsoft control of your computer. You will have advertising forced onto your desktop and your menus. And who knows where else. All your documents will be uploaded to Microsoft servers and you cannot turn these features off. And you will have these (and many more) Windows 11 problems on Intel or on ARM.

The best option of course, is to switch to MacOS. The new M4 iMacs were just announced. The 24" models start at only $1299 with 16GB RAM standard. I would wait for a bigger screen though. Or get a good deal on an M2 Mac Mini and use your old monitor. MacOS Sequoia is rolling out Apple intelligence right now, which gives you a lot of AI features for FREE ... without spying on you or stealing your data.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323542#Comment_1323542

If Windows followed Apple's path and went 100% ARM,

a problem is that Apple is a sole distributor of their hardware, Microsoft has both hardware and software divisions so "going 100$ ARM" isn't likely as long as other manufacturers can install the OS on their hardware.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323607#Comment_1323607

a problem is that Apple is a sole distributor of their hardware, Microsoft has both hardware and software divisions so "going 100$ ARM" isn't likely as long as other manufacturers can install the OS on their hardware

I understand, but my point is that the success and adoption of this platform isn't yet determined.

I <think> this is real this time, but history (which can be seen in these forums!) shows that many windows technologies fizzle out. It would be a significant cost for Logos to support ARM on Windows. It appears that Logos is waiting for a critical mass to build first.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323637#Comment_1323637

It would be a significant cost for Logos to support ARM on Windows.

JT, can you fill us in on how you know that? I realize it may be true. FL could really help by responding to the questions I asked earlier on this thread.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323386#Comment_1323386

I may not understand how telemetry could be useful to see how many Logos Windows customers are using ARM chipsets when they can’t run Logos on Arm yet.

If there isn't a native windows ARM app, how do you estimate the interest level?

Programs can detect the underlying chipset, even if they're running under emulation and not compiled for that chipset, e.g., by using IsWow64Process2.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323520#Comment_1323520

I am just going to assume that Bradley and crew are privately keeping an eye on ARM. It would be nice, however, to get some basic answers (from Bradley) such as:

1. If FL sees that it is necessary to make Logos work on Windows ARM, how long (basically) would it take to make that adjustment?

2. If Windows ARM catches on, and it is clear that FL needs to make Logos work on ARM, is it correct that FL would also have to keep Logos working on Intel as well for a number of years to come?

3. Is the work needed to see Logos work on ARM similar to the work that would be needed to see Logos work on Linux? (I know there are no plans to have Logos work on Linux)

Probably several months. We don't have a firm estimate. This would depend a lot on how many third-party components that we use are ready to support ARM64.
Yes. Even if Intel-based Windows PC were to be completely phased out (which seems highly unlikely in the near future), I imagine that we would keep supporting them for years after the last model shipped.
No. (Having a version of Logos for Intel-based Windows doesn't get us any closer to running on Intel-based Linux computers. Supporting ARM64-based Windows won't make it any easier to run on Linux, whether it's Intel- or ARM64-based.)

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1323774#Comment_1323774

Probably several months. We don't have a firm estimate. This would depend a lot on how many third-party components that we use are ready to support ARM64.

Thanks, Bradley. This helps a lot. It means that once it is determined that there is a need for FL to develop an Arm based program for Windows, it would not take long to develop. My son who is finishing a degree in computer science suggested the same.

Samuel Stone

I just got my Surface Laptop 7 (ARM). I installed Logos and so far it's working fine, although a littler slower. My other non-ARM apps also work fine through automatic emulation. I'll keep testing out.

I believe a native ARM version of Proclaim is more urgent than Logos because Logo is not a worship service app. It's for research and Bible Study, which is mostly used on Android, Fire Tablets, and iPads, or Web. So, I would rather see Proclaim on ARM first.

I use the ARM-based Davinci Resolve for video editing and enjoy it. I don't think I'll go back to Intel. I was considering buying an Intel Lunar Lake, but it performs poorly on GPU intensive apps. ARM looks very promising.

Veli Voipio

I've got lost with these processor names. Last summer I've bought a Dell with a Meteor Lake, and it works well, seen no instability.

I am just wondering, could it be possible to provide unsupported ARM and Linux versions for those who want to play with it?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1349322#Comment_1349322

ARM would be expected to appear in a Beta release, subject to Bradley's comment. Linux??

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

I am just wondering, could it be possible to provide unsupported ARM and Linux versions for those who want to play with it?

If we had an ARM version, we would release it in beta for testing. The issue is that we don't have one and it would take months of development effort to build. The nature of the beta test (unsupported or supported) doesn't really change that.

Matt Shriner

Just wanted to post as I have been considering purchasing an ARM laptop for better battery life as opposed to my power hungry Legion 5 slim…lol. Does anyone run Logos on something with the Snapdragon elite or plus? Wondering how it performs through emulation.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1351912#Comment_1351912

I have no firsthand experience on this. But there is a lot of data out there on these chips now.

They do indeed perform better than Intel on battery life when running natively compiled programs. But based on information I have seen, whenever you are having to run a program in X86/64 emulation mode, those great scores disappear into oblivion.

if Logos is an important program to you, then you should buy hardware to run it that is supported by Logos.

Rob Kuefner

I have been using Logos on my Surface Laptop 7 with the Snapdragon X Elite ARM Chipset and Proclaim and haven't had any problems at all. I know they are both running in emulation mode, but I haven't really noticed any issues of speed or ability to do what I need to do within Logos or Proclaim. I do love the battery life which is really just a game changer compared to my other Windows laptops of the past.

There have only been a few hiccups in my use of ARM. The biggest is printing. Our church office has a Sharp Multi-function printer, which is tied to our network and we print through that. But the software won't install. There is a Sharp app in the Windows store that allows me to print on the copier, but it's limited in all the functions, so while I usually could choose to staple or select the bypass tray or a number of things, I can't with the more limited windows store app. While not a direct Logos issue, I can't go into Logos and choose to print to my printer. Instead I have to save as a pdf and then go to the Sharp app and print. Again, not an issue with Logos, but just thought I'd share for those who might tie into an office copier as a printer, as that might be a problem.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1353337#Comment_1353337

You would need printer drivers written for ARM. Drivers cannot run in emulation mode. Unless it’s a really old unsupported device, I would be surprised if they were not available yet.

https://global.sharp/products/copier/info/info_arm-windows_2024-09.html

Rob Kuefner

John

It's a copier which we leased two years ago, and I check Sharp website all the time. Oddly, I can get the scanner to be recognized but not the printer when it comes to installing through Add a printer in Windows. It does install the scanner driver. The Sharp MFP software for the copier will download and go through the install process. It will identify that I have Windows 11 and then it pops up that it is an unsupported OS. There are no ARM compatible drivers that I have been able to locate and I put the local Sharp tech support through the ringer trying to help me. Honestly, I think I knew more than they did at the time. As noted, I can print through the Sharpdesk Mobile app in the Windows store, but it is limited in what features the copier actually has available to use, that would usually be available to me in the printer settings. If I really need to print something with more options, I pull out my Surface Pro Laptop 3.

John

If your printer is supported by a Windows printer driver, (very likely) you still might not be able to install it if the manufacturer has not written an arm specific installer program.

network printers can be a little tricky sometimes when installing drivers. An old trick that I have used before was too plugged the printer into a USB port on the computer, let plug-in play detect the printer, and it should automatically install whatever generic drivers that Microsoft has available.

the following link says basically the same thing

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/help-with-installing-printers-on-arm-pcs-fe3e5b19-a15a-4ae6-a0c0-502b45f1b4c9

If that doesn’t work, you may just be out of luck. At least until the manufacturer writes an ARM specific installer file. But this just serves as an example, if you are adopting a brand new platform some things are just not going to work.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1349308#Comment_1349308

Samuel, can we get an update on your experience with ARM?

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1353337#Comment_1353337

Rob, it is nice to hear your review. It is the 1st positive review I have seen, so I am still not ready to bite. Please check in from time to time to update us your exprience

Mark

Windows Arm

Intel Lunar Lake

AMD Ryzen

Intel’s Meteor Lake

Can someone confirm that Logos works (without emulation) on all these chips except ARM?

Can someone comment on the AMD and Intel Chips vs ARM?

John

@Mark

Can someone confirm that Logos works (without emulation) on all these chips except ARM?

Logos supports Windows 10 (Until October) and Windows 11. But not ARM versions.

Logos Minimum System Requirements

Logos recommends "Latest generation Intel Core i7 processor (or AMD equivalent)" on this page.

However, Intel has been having problems with its two most recent series of desktop processors, 13th and 14th generation. There are also rumors that problems also exist in the latest Arrow Lake processors. Problems are specifically with high end desktop chips. You may want to play it safe by avoiding these Intel processors.

If you search the internet, you will find hundreds of discussions about this, mostly on gamer and benchmark forums. Intel sold a bunch of bad processors, and rather than taking responsibility, issued a "fix" in the form of a microcode update that essentially throttle the processor to prevent voltage issues. This prevented total failure of the chip, so that Intel did not have to replace under warranty. Later they issued "fixes" for Windows 11. Now they claim all the problems are fixed. But people doing performance intensive gaming and bench-marking are pretty sure they aren't.

Intel stock is down 55% in the last year. That is after it jumped almost 10% recently upon rumors of an acquisition. Last year it was Apple and Samsung that were interested. Latest rumors are that Elon Musk might buy it.

If Logos is your primary concern, a Mac is probably your best choice right now. Apple clearly knew where Intel was headed and released their own chips before the disaster at Intel took place. But if you are tied to Windows, there are older intel systems that still perform well. Or there is AMD.

John

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354904#Comment_1354904

You wrote:

Logos recommends "Latest generation Intel Core i7 processor (or AMD equivalent)" on this page.

But the page mentions nothing about MAC M Chip….only an intel chip for MACS. Would that not mean that the page has not been updated for a while?

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354910#Comment_1354910

You are right, I did not look at the MacOS part of the page. I think it’s safe to say that it hasn’t been updated in a while. 😂

Steven Blythe

I just canceled my Surface ARM computer purchase after learning it isn't supported.

My old computer runs too slow with Logos.

What windows laptop does Logos recommend for running their software?

I may have to get a different Bible Program. If so, are there Bible programs that run with Windows ARM?

Dave Hooton

What windows laptop does Logos recommend for running their software?

See https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software-for-Logos

A Core i5 would also be suitable, but ignore Core i3. An SSD is a requirement, don't think about HDD's. Note the free space recommendation which could mean that 512 GB drive is insufficient (you can check how much you use on your current computer).

John

@Steven Blythe

… are there Bible programs that run with Windows ARM?

The only ones at this time seem to be those that can run under the Microsoft Prism x86-64 emulation. So the answer is for Logos … sorta but you might be disappointed if you try it.

Simpler Bible programs that are less powerful might run ok under emulation. But do you really want to take that chance?

Chad Katter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1365083#Comment_1365083

I've used Logos on my Surface Pro ARM device for the past 6+ months. It crashes occasionally, but usually works okay. I try to save an updated layout several times a day.