Logos on new Windows ARM computers (Copilot+ PCs) ...
Today is the day! Microsoft (and many other vendors like Dell, Lenovo, ASUS, etc) announced their answer to Apple's M-series computers ... Copilot+ PCs. Today the computers announced all run on the Snapdragon Elite X ARM processor. There supposed to be as fast as Apple's Mac Air M3s.
What does this mean for Logos Bible Sofware (and me)? I will be looking for an ARM compiled version of Logos! Until then, my Windows Logos software will have to be emulated (just like software had to be when the M1 processor was first released), which means slower 😒.
So, Logos, what's the plan?
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Me too! Looking forward to getting an updated Windows machine and hoping that Logos has been working on this is the background
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Any updates about ARM support on Windows will be posted to this feedback item: https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/native-support-for-windows-on-arm
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Thanks, Bradley for the link. Hopeful Logos will work well on this new device
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@Bradley - done.
Everyone else reading this ... please go to the link, comment, and vote it up. Thanks!
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Bradley, it has been over 6 months now.
We have now seen a SIGNIFICANT amount of Windows laptops running on ARM processors. Apple M1 laptops were supported, and we are now seeing like 30+ laptops running on ARM processors, and more are planned every year. This is not just a 1 time thing like it was with the Surface Pro a few years ago. Now we are seeing massive adoption of Windows laptops on ARM.
This should AT LEAST be in the discussion page, if not the "planned" stage on the feedback forum. Please escalate this.
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Zachary Rohman said:
Apple M1 laptops were supported, and we are now seeing like 30+ laptops running on ARM processors, and more are planned every year.
100% of Macs are now ARM. What percentage of windows computers are? [Earnest question]
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Zachary Rohman said:
This should AT LEAST be in the discussion page, if not the "planned" stage on the feedback forum. Please escalate this.
I hear that it's very important to you to have an ARM-native version of Logos for your Windows computer.
We also have (many) feature requests from Intel-based Windows users and we have to decide where to deploy our limited engineering resources. So far, a port of Logos to Windows ARM hasn't reached the top of the priority list.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
I hear that it's very important to you to have an ARM-native version of Logos for your Windows computer.
We also have (many) feature requests from Intel-based Windows users and we have to decide where to deploy our limited engineering resources. So far, a port of Logos to Windows ARM hasn't reached the top of the priority list.
So how do you determine when the percentage of people who find this important? Or do you determine by seeing the projection of how many pcs are adopting Arm?
This link https://www.counterpointresearch.com/insights/arm-based-pcs-to-nearly-double-market-share-by-2027/#:~:text=Arm%2Dbased%20notebooks%20will%20gain,both%20daily%20users%20and%20businesses suggests that that Arm could have a 50% share of the Windows PC market by 2029
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Mark said:
So how do you determine when the percentage of people who find this important? Or do you determine by seeing the projection of how many pcs are adopting Arm?
There's no hard-and-fast formula. We monitor industry trends of new ARM deliveries (as a percentage of all new computers). We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base
Perhaps I am unique, but I choose hardware based upon Logos Capabilities [my first hybrid drive and my first SSD were based upon Logos search speed], not Hardware first then look for software. My last 2 upgrades have been due to SSD space because my Logos Library (video courses take up most space) is increasing. I know that Logos is watching for ARMs to be purchased before investing resources, but I waiting for Logos to invest resources before purchasing my next device. When the New Surface Pro AI machines came out, I stuck a pin in the purchase UNTIL Logos provides native ARM in the Windows environment. It appears to this user that Microsoft is moving towards AI and Logos is moving towards AI, but Redmond is waiting for Bellingham to set pace and direction [:D]
Chicken meet egg...
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base.
I may not understand how telemetry could be useful to see how many Logos Windows customers are using ARM chipsets when they can’t run Logos on Arm yet.
Apple moved to ARM chipsets and it didn’t take all that long for Logos to release a native version. Compared with Windows users, surely Mac users are the minority. I would think it is reasonable to expect Logos to release a Windows ARM version along the same time frame, if not sooner.
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Bill Anderson said:
Apple moved to ARM chipsets and it didn’t take all that long for Logos to release a native version.
When Apple announced that Macs were moving to ARM, 100% of new Macs were moving there. Logos had to support ARM or drop support for Mac altogether.
Bill Anderson said:I would think it is reasonable to expect Logos to release a Windows ARM version along the same time frame, if not sooner.
What percentage of windows computers are currently using ARM? (not many currently) How frequently do windows users update their computers? (less frequently than Mac users). How often does the "next big thing" come along on windows and then go to the trash heap? (Often).
The success of Windows on ARM is not yet determined.
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Bill Anderson said:
Logos Windows customers are using ARM chipsets when they can’t run Logos on Arm yet.
[Y][Y]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
We also use telemetry from our users to determine the penetration within our customer base.
Is that "telemetry" based upon the web app usage? I do understand the others curiosity in how that is determined. If there isn't a native windows ARM app, how do you estimate the interest level?
Bill Anderson said:I would think it is reasonable to expect Logos to release a Windows ARM version
I'm not trying to rile y'all up, but I do want to show you why things may not be quite as you think they are. In THIS link, it states: "At the moment Arm has an 11% share of the Windows PC market according to Counterpoint Research." By "market," I assume this means "of sales." If so, that would mean that the user base of windows computers on ARM is less than 11%. This article was cited above when it was suggested that by 2029, Arm <could have> 50% of sales. That number was an optimistic projection by the ARM CEO.
I also think that Intel is not going to go down without a fight. However, they certainly have much work to do to catch up.
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I am just going to assume that Bradley and crew are privately keeping an eye on ARM. It would be nice, however, to get some basic answers (from Bradley) such as:
1. If FL sees that it is necessary to make Logos work on Windows ARM, how long (basically) would it take to make that adjustment?
2. If Windows ARM catches on, and it is clear that FL needs to make Logos work on ARM, is it correct that FL would also have to keep Logos working on Intel as well for a number of years to come?
3. Is the work needed to see Logos work on ARM similar to the work that would be needed to see Logos work on Linux? (I know there are no plans to have Logos work on Linux)
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Mark said:
If Windows ARM catches on, and it is clear that FL needs to make Logos work on ARM, is it correct that FL would also have to keep Logos working on Intel as well for a number of years to come?
I can't imagine that they would not. If Windows followed Apple's path and went 100% ARM, then support would fade (as it does already with old versions of OS).
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JT (alabama24) said:
I also think that Intel is not going to go down without a fight. However, they certainly have much work to do to catch up.
It may be too early to start a discussion on this, but very recent reports are that the instability problems Intel chips experienced with Raptor Lake have NOT been solved in its latest generation of Arrow Lake chips.
Before purchasing any Intel system be careful and do your homework. To the best of my knowledge, the problems were only present in the desktop series of processors, while the mobile processors were ok.
It is problems like this that might accelerate the trend into Windows on ARM.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/not-this-again-intel-arrow-lake-may-have-instability-issues/ar-AA1sMwNp">
Not this again: Intel Arrow Lake may have instability issues
Intel’s Arrow Lake is just a couple of days from hitting the market, and we’ve been inundated with various reports and leaked benchmarks. Today’s news doesn’t sound good, though. YouTuber Moore’s Law Is Dead reports that Arrow Lake, also referred to as Core Ultra 200-S, may have some instability issues — much like what we’ve seen Intel battle for months on end in Raptor Lake.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/intel-nasdaq-intc-arrow-lake-processors-experience-problems">
Just when one problem ends for chip stock Intel (INTC), another begins. The latest problem reveals that Intel’s chip instability problems may not be over yet, and the Arrow Lake set may be next to fall victim.
The Arrow Lake lineup, specifically the Core Ultra 200-S, may have instability issues similar to those seen with the Raptor Lake lineup just a few weeks ago. While the issue is not yet confirmed, the early reports suggest that Arrow Lake processors, which will be going live in days, are running into crashes as well as having some unusual benchmark test results.
These are very early reports and yet to be confirmed by solid research ... but it is not looking good for Intel right now ... Rumors are that Apple and Samsung have expressed interest in buying Intel.
This was from a previous thread here on the forum on Raptor Lake">
Be VERY careful in choosing an Intel processor. There are major problems which are still unresolved.
There is no fix for Intel’s crashing 13th and 14th Gen CPUs — any damage is permanent
For the past few months, consumers with desktop PCs running 13th- or 14th-generation Raptor Lake Intel Core CPUs have been plagued by crashes and instability issues.
Given the problems with recent Intel chips and the lack of Logos support for the new Windows on ARM operating system ... I would recommend you go with an iMac.
My opinion: These problems do not mean a laptop with Intel mobile processor could not be a good deal right now. Even the Raptor Lake desktop chips are being recommended by at least one guy due to large price drop. But personally I would steer clear of any Intel desktop chip right now. If Windows 11 is what you intend to run, also avoid Intel motherboards, as they are having issues too.
If you want to run Logos on Windows, there are only two good choices for a desktop machine right now ... Older Intel chips, 12th Generation or earlier ... before the problems began. These chips also have the advantage that they are cheaper. Or AMD. I do not know much about AMD so I cannot give specific advice.
Or you could go with a laptop. You can use a laptop on a desktop. You can use a large monitor and a real desktop keyboard.
I personally would avoid Windows 11. Logos will drop support for Windows 10 when Microsoft does ... and to stay current you will have to give Microsoft control of your computer. You will have advertising forced onto your desktop and your menus. And who knows where else. All your documents will be uploaded to Microsoft servers and you cannot turn these features off. And you will have these (and many more) Windows 11 problems on Intel or on ARM.
The best option of course, is to switch to MacOS. The new M4 iMacs were just announced. The 24" models start at only $1299 with 16GB RAM standard. I would wait for a bigger screen though. Or get a good deal on an M2 Mac Mini and use your old monitor. MacOS Sequoia is rolling out Apple intelligence right now, which gives you a lot of AI features for FREE ... without spying on you or stealing your data.
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JT (alabama24) said:
If Windows followed Apple's path and went 100% ARM,
a problem is that Apple is a sole distributor of their hardware, Microsoft has both hardware and software divisions so "going 100$ ARM" isn't likely as long as other manufacturers can install the OS on their hardware.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David Thomas said:
a problem is that Apple is a sole distributor of their hardware, Microsoft has both hardware and software divisions so "going 100$ ARM" isn't likely as long as other manufacturers can install the OS on their hardware
I understand, but my point is that the success and adoption of this platform isn't yet determined.
I <think> this is real this time, but history (which can be seen in these forums!) shows that many windows technologies fizzle out. It would be a significant cost for Logos to support ARM on Windows. It appears that Logos is waiting for a critical mass to build first.
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JT (alabama24) said:
It would be a significant cost for Logos to support ARM on Windows.
JT, can you fill us in on how you know that? I realize it may be true. FL could really help by responding to the questions I asked earlier on this thread.
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Bill Anderson said:
I may not understand how telemetry could be useful to see how many Logos Windows customers are using ARM chipsets when they can’t run Logos on Arm yet.
JT (alabama24) said:If there isn't a native windows ARM app, how do you estimate the interest level?
Programs can detect the underlying chipset, even if they're running under emulation and not compiled for that chipset, e.g., by using IsWow64Process2.
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Mark said:
I am just going to assume that Bradley and crew are privately keeping an eye on ARM. It would be nice, however, to get some basic answers (from Bradley) such as:
1. If FL sees that it is necessary to make Logos work on Windows ARM, how long (basically) would it take to make that adjustment?
2. If Windows ARM catches on, and it is clear that FL needs to make Logos work on ARM, is it correct that FL would also have to keep Logos working on Intel as well for a number of years to come?
3. Is the work needed to see Logos work on ARM similar to the work that would be needed to see Logos work on Linux? (I know there are no plans to have Logos work on Linux)
- Probably several months. We don't have a firm estimate. This would depend a lot on how many third-party components that we use are ready to support ARM64.
- Yes. Even if Intel-based Windows PC were to be completely phased out (which seems highly unlikely in the near future), I imagine that we would keep supporting them for years after the last model shipped.
- No. (Having a version of Logos for Intel-based Windows doesn't get us any closer to running on Intel-based Linux computers. Supporting ARM64-based Windows won't make it any easier to run on Linux, whether it's Intel- or ARM64-based.)
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Probably several months. We don't have a firm estimate. This would depend a lot on how many third-party components that we use are ready to support ARM64.
Thanks, Bradley. This helps a lot. It means that once it is determined that there is a need for FL to develop an Arm based program for Windows, it would not take long to develop. My son who is finishing a degree in computer science suggested the same.
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I just got my Surface Laptop 7 (ARM). I installed Logos and so far it's working fine, although a littler slower. My other non-ARM apps also work fine through automatic emulation. I'll keep testing out.
I believe a native ARM version of Proclaim is more urgent than Logos because Logo is not a worship service app. It's for research and Bible Study, which is mostly used on Android, Fire Tablets, and iPads, or Web. So, I would rather see Proclaim on ARM first.
I use the ARM-based Davinci Resolve for video editing and enjoy it. I don't think I'll go back to Intel. I was considering buying an Intel Lunar Lake, but it performs poorly on GPU intensive apps. ARM looks very promising.
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I've got lost with these processor names. Last summer I've bought a Dell with a Meteor Lake, and it works well, seen no instability.
I am just wondering, could it be possible to provide unsupported ARM and Linux versions for those who want to play with it?
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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ARM would be expected to appear in a Beta release, subject to Bradley's comment. Linux??
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I am just wondering, could it be possible to provide unsupported ARM and Linux versions for those who want to play with it?
If we had an ARM version, we would release it in beta for testing. The issue is that we don't have one and it would take months of development effort to build. The nature of the beta test (unsupported or supported) doesn't really change that.
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