LOGOS on arm (Surface Pro 11)
A few weeks ago, I authored a post where I asked for tablet recommendations compatible with LOGOS. Just wanted to post an update that I purchased a new Surface Pro 11 (ARM) and so far LOGOS is performing well. Just thought I would share. Thanks for the advice!
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How was it? Any screenshot to share?
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How was it? Any screenshot to share?
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Its running fine for me on a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7x. Its maybe a bit sluggish loading resources for the first time in a session and I probably haven't put it through its paces yet in every bit of functionality but it definitely runs and is usable....probably wouldn't have thought twice about the bit of lag without looking for it knowing that its running emulated.
I've got about 1500 resources in my library. I didn't watch it install/index so not much feedback on that.
Its looks and acts the same as it does on my Core i7 pc with the same amount of RAM.
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Took the plunge and got the Surface Pro 11 (Elite with 32 RAM). Library is over 10,000 books and was a 42GB install. So far fine (coming from a Surface Pro7+ i7). Have yet to really push it though.
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For the last 1.5 years, I've been working on Lenovo Yoga laptop. At home I have two monitor that I work off of and I use the laptop for studying, preparing, preaching and teaching... when preaching and teaching, I fold the screen over backwards and with the touch screen... I have a 14 inch tablet. It works great, runs Logos very well.... and was relative inexpensive when I purchased it. There is always bigger better and such... but good is good.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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After using it some more I would say it runs acceptably well - but it does crash which is annoying. It's sluggish but not so slow as to be annoying. I'm still deciding whether I will return the Surface as this was the only reason I was considering it - I wanted a comfortable tablet to run LOGOS while lounging comfortably.
If the crashing becomes too frequent, I will probably trade it in for a yoga or similar. Is it crashing for anyone else? I often have many tabs open.
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If the crashing becomes too frequent, I will probably trade it in for a yoga or similar. Is it crashing for anyone else? I often have many tabs open.
Windows 11 on the new Snapdragon ARM is essentially a brand new platform. Virtually untested and rushed into production to try to announce before Apples WWDC24.
Logos does not support this platform (My guess is that they will soon, but who knows?).
The Windows version of Logos is targeting an Intel Processor and an x86-64 version of Windows.
The reason it ran for you at all is because Microsoft is using a new translation technology called PRISM, which is an ARM emulation of the Intel processor instruction set.
Microsoft is doing basically the same thing that Apple did with its Rosetta emulation software when they switched the new macs to their own ARM chip, the M1.
I experimented with Windows 11 ARM in a VMWARE virtual machine on my M2 Macbook Air. It ran everything I tried, but I did not try Logos. It would not make sense to run Logos in an emulated environment when it runs natively as an ARM version on the M2. The screenshot shows Windows 11 ARM running on an M2 Macbook Air, running an old version of Bibleworks.
It ran everything perfectly. But the version of Windows I installed was a preview version which was automatically downloaded through the VMWARE Fusion program. More info here.
This article implies that if you do not have the preview version, you may be running an older version of the PRISM emulation layer.
Microsoft says “Prism” translation layer does for Arm PCs what Rosetta did for Macs">
Microsoft says that Prism isn’t just a new name for the same old translation technology. Translated apps should run between 10 and 20 percent faster on the same Arm hardware after installing the Windows 11 24H2 update
How long before there is a native version of Logos for Windows ARM? I don't know. Make sure you have the latest version of Windows 11. It is possible that only beta versions will run emulation well.
The good news is ... lots of sales going on right now... the stores do not want to get stuck with the Intel Windows machines [:D]
Me personally, I switched to Mac and never looking back.
P.S. - Discovered this link after my post. A few others are also experiencing sluggish performance and crashes
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I went for the Surface Laptop 7 after being on Surface Pros since the very first one (lapability)! Love it and Logos is also running well for me, though I have noticed that my last layout is not automatically loaded when I start Logos.
Also, leave your feedback on this official Logos FEEDBACK post on this topic ... Native support for Windows on ARM | Logos.
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I thought readers looking at this thread might be interested in this test by The Verge web site (technology-agnostic), comparing the latest Qualcomm/Snapdragon-powered ARM to Intel, AMD, and Mac technologies. Microsoft Surface ARM laptops powered by the latest Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite X1E-80-100 chip handily beat Intel and AMD technologies, and (mostly) beat the MacBook Air, but not last year’s MacBook Pro models. Note this does NOT compare to the 2024/M4 version of the MacBook Pros.
They test performance, emulation, GPU, and battery.
Enjoy!
https://www.theverge.com/24191671/copilot-plus-pcs-laptops-qualcomm-intel-amd-apple
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I am a former Windows/Android user who switched to MacOS/iOS; Around the time Microsoft was *forcing* happy Windows 7 users to download large updates to "prepare" for the coming *forced* update to Windows 8.
So I have been watching this rollout with much interest. As a lifelong Windows user I have a huge library of older (legacy x86 Windows) software I still have an interest in running. For me the issue is not about ARM and being faster than Apple, it is about whether I can live with Microsofts practices.
I am currently testing Windows 11 virtualized on the Mac (both Intel and M2) and may report my findings later when I have something conclusive to share.
For now I would warn you, Logos does not support Windows 11 on the new Snapdragon ARM.
People are trying it out using x86_64 emulation but having crashes and performance problems.This thread: Native support for Windows on ARM has been around 3+ years. But if you scroll all the way to the bottom, you will find the recent experience of those who have tried this.
Unless you enjoy being a Guinea pig for alpha and beta testing new and unproven things, I would recommend you stick with Intel for now, Even if you plan on getting a new Surface. If Logos is important to you, why buy an expensive platform that Logos does not currently support?
AI, Co-pilot are currently not dependent upon the hardware. They do not utilize NPU and there is no commercial software that currently does utilize the NPU.https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs">
These claims are a marketing promise, not a current reality. The hardware is there on the system, but there is no software that uses it, and Microsoft to my knowlege has not announced any way for developers to access it. I believe Microsoft will eventually make it work, but to claim they are ahead of Apple is simply deceptive marketing.
Why follow when you can set the pace? With the NPU on the Snapdragon® X Series processor, you’ll have 45 trillion operations per second (TOPS) to work with.https://www.theverge.com/24191671/copilot-plus-pcs-laptops-qualcomm-intel-amd-apple">
Microsoft hasn’t had the greatest reputation when it comes to x86 emulation on Arm, and while its new Prism emulator is much faster, it’s still not fast enough for heavyweight apps.
This quote is from the article you linked to. Does this imply that a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.
Microsoft Surface ARM laptops powered by the latest Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite X1E-80-100 chip handily beat Intel and AMD technologies
I knew when I saw your post that something was not accurate. After reading the article I realized the headline did not reflect that Apple was the real winner. There is a lot more to system performance than peak processing speed. Apple has integrated their entire system for performance. The tests and charts show Apple chips winning, but the headline ignores that and only compares Snapdragon X to Intel and AMD.
One youtube channel did a particularly good job at reporting comprehensive benchmarks of these platforms (including prototypes of Apples M4 which has not been released yet): M4 Macs - Can Intel Lunar Lake & AMD HX 370 BEAT Apple?!
The results reported there are accurate and tell the truth. Many people are buying into Microsoft's marketing hype and reporting that the new Snapdragon X is beating Apple. It is not. It does not even beat the Apple M2.
Many tests (including the article you linked to) have compared the MacBook Air against these, which is highly misleading because the MB Air is not designed for raw performance. It has no cooling fan, so intensive operations that cause the generation of a lot of heat will automatically slow the processing down. To be a fair test, you have to benchmark against a MacBook Pro, and then you find out that even the M2 wins almost everything, especially graphics.
As far as Windows 11 vs MacOS goes, it would be hard to know where to start. Microsoft is forcing Windows users into their cloud. If that is what you want, then you might enjoy Windows 11. Windows 11 will not install without creating a Microsoft login. It will force upload all of your data to OneDrive. You cannot turn it off. You have no control over updates. Microsoft basically owns your computer.
I love the icloud features Apple has provided. But there is one important thing that Apple did not forget ... that is the ON/OFF switch. Nobody is forced to use icloud. And now that I have utilized icloud, I have no use for Microsoft's own Windows/Office/OneDrive cloud.
There are hacks to get around Microsoft's issues, but it is getting harder. Microsoft has already patched things so the easy ones no longer work. I am trying out a modified install media called tiny11 (I still need a good way to virtualize all my old software), but that is beyond the scope of this forum.
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John, you didn't read what I said, or the article, carefully enough.
"I knew when I saw your post that it was not accurate. There is a lot more to system performance than peak processing speed."
- did you see I did mention the benchmark results, which are accurate for a benchmark, yet I ALSO summarized the article which said the MacBook Pro was faster in performance, emulation, GPU, and battery efficiency?
"To be a fair test, you have to benchmark against a MacBook Pro, and then you find out that even the M2 wins almost everything, especially graphics."
- again, you didn't read past the first sentence. I DID note the M-series success that the article states, and that they did not test with the latest, 2024 MacBook Pro (which would have even better results). What I said about the Air was accurate.
- I also mention that I put that out so that people considering a Surface would know there could be some advantages to the ARM performance that they were not aware of, vs. Intel and AMD. You correctly brought up some other issues.
John I was trying to just post an article with legitimate test results, and summarized it. I believe what I stated, and the article, are both accurate in what they state and complete in their topic(s). Your comment "I knew when I saw your post that it was not accurate" is confrontational.
This was not meant to initiate a debate about platforms. No need to get upset because you feel slighted by Microsoft. I too am primarily a Mac user. Just be fair and read what someone posts before you criticize them.
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Oh and by the way - "Does this imply that a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.
-Logos ran quite well on Parallels/Mac before they went native, I used it for months. If you are just referring to Microsoft's solution, please be more specific in your criticisms.
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John, you didn't read what I said, or the article, carefully enough.
Yes I did read it, but to be honest it was a long article, and my response was mostly to the article. Sorry if you felt I was being to confrontational.
Oh and by the way - "Does this imply that a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.
-Logos ran quite well on Parallels/Mac before they went native, I used it for months. If you are just referring to Microsoft's solution, please be more specific in your criticisms.Parallels is to virtualize an entire operating system. You did not mention Rosetta, but I would assume this is what you are talking about? Logos Intel version running on Apple M series chips?
The success of Rosetta is the result of Apple as a company doing things right. But Microsoft is a completely different company.
Not sure how Parallels/Mac running ok for you on a Mac means that this new Microsoft platform will automatically run ok? The Logos users who have tried it are reporting bad performance and crashes.
My post is simply to warn people that it is not a good plan to buy an unsupported system to run Logos. When Logos releases a native Windows/ARM version, then it will make a lot more sense. The only thing these new ARM systems have to offer is hype about AI and Copilot.
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"Parallels is to virtualize an entire operating system. You did not mention Rosetta, but I would assume this is what you are talking about?"
- Yes, you are correct and that is what I meant! Fingers out-pacing the brain lol.
"Not sure how Parallels/Mac running ok for you on a Mac means that this new Microsoft platform will automatically run ok? "
- Nope it sure does not as I know you agree! I was commenting on when you said, "a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.", that I thought the answer was not a sweeping no for all implementations - as emulation with Logos ran well on the Mac.
"My post is simply to warn people that it is not a good plan to buy an unsupported system to run Logos."
- Agree 100%, good advice.
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I'll chime in here as well. I got a Surface Laptop 7 and installed Logos. It's been running very well, and I've experienced no issues so far. When doing a passage guide, it is a bit slower than a comparable Intel i7, but I put that down to running on top of PRISM emulation. While this is a good result, I do hope that Logos gets a native ARM version.
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I'll chime in here as well. I got a Surface Laptop 7 and installed Logos. It's been running very well, and I've experienced no issues so far. When doing a passage guide, it is a bit slower than a comparable Intel i7, but I put that down to running on top of PRISM emulation. While this is a good result, I do hope that Logos gets a native ARM version.
The emulation is amazing. It runs most x86 programs. Where it has problems is when those programs require maximum performance.
Also keep in mind that when utilizing emulation, all claims of efficiency and battery life disappear. I know most people don't care. I don't. I usually have mine plugged in anyway.
One company that is on board with the new systems is Adobe. It has already released native ARM versions of many of its programs. But the most processor intensive are being delayed until "later this year". These programs require a lot of processing power and simply cannot run under the emulation. Adobe is not supporting these programs under emulation.
tomsguide.com">
There are apps that don't take as much processing power that can run via emulation without notice but Adobe's programs are not that, especially Premiere Pro and After Effects.
Windows Central did test Adobe products and said that emulated version of Premiere Pro struggled with multiple layers and effects and rendering was vastly increased over Intel devices.
Glad to hear it is working for you, and hopefully Logos will consider a native ARM version. It does appear that these new machines are being supported by a lot of software developers. [Y]
(I still don't recommend anyone buy one, until Logos is supporting it)
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Would love to hear an udate on this from FL
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Would love to hear an update on this from FL
I agree
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I don't know if you will get an official answer, but here is my bet on what it would be.
1. Logos provides support for Apple ARM because Apple is 100% moving to it (away from x86). Logos support of this is required if Logos wants to continue supporting Mac.
2. Currently the more powerful windows ARM devices are more novel. The bulk of the devices are not here.
3. Windows users are slower to update to new devices and technology.
4. If the market shifts to windows ARM, Logos will support it.
5. I would not expect #4 anytime soon.
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Well it seems more and more windows laptops are adopting arm. See here for example.
Another interesting article is here.
It seems all signs point to the market shifting to Windows Arm. Intel plans to adopt it at the beginning of 2025.
A transition seems to be occuring. I assume it is a matter of time before Logos supports it.
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I could imagine it happening if the market size is big enough. Logos is now using many very modern and portable apis. Very recent .NET and Chromium etc. These things are often harder than they sound but the design choices they've made in recent years tend towards the app being easier to port to new platforms than it was back when they first ported to mac for example.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Well it seems more and more windows laptops are adopting arm. See here for example.
Another interesting article is here.
It seems all signs point to the market shifting to Windows Arm. Intel plans to adopt it at the beginning of 2025.
A transition seems to be occuring. I assume it is a matter of time before Logos supports it.
A pullout from your link: “The ground hasn’t settled yet. We’re going to have a couple years of this uncertainty.”
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I remember reading many years ago that Intel was threatening legal action against x86 emulation. Like this article from 2017:
arstechnica.com">
Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, claims x86 emulation is a patent minefield
Intel doesn't name names, but Windows 10 on ARM is surely the target of its ire.The link to the Intel site is no longer functional, but can be read here.
I'm not sure what the status is now. It is possible that Microsoft has made deals with Intel which gave access to x86 patents.
But ... if Intel wanted too, it could probably shut down the whole emulation game with a big patent infringement lawsuit.
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Would love to hear an update on this from FL
I agree
When there's an update to share, we'll post it to https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/native-support-for-windows-on-arm.
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IMHO it makes sense to watch it but not jump too fast.
Having the Apple ARM version should make the port easier; there are differences in the Apple hardware, but the 2 architectures are mostly similar I think. (I am not a Logos developer though!)
Also, IDC projects ARM/CoPilot PCs to be less than 3% of total PC sales this year. It's new. With a long list of software needs at Logos, I would not invest resources in this yet either.
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it makes sense to watch it but not jump too fast.
Bradley's been considering it for 3 years, it will be a well-reasoned response.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = Logos10 on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet) & FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.
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Bradley's been considering it for 3 years, it will be a well-reasoned response.
well some version of ARM solution, poor as it was, has been out since 2019. Only recently has MS had all the pieces to signify legitimate support of ARM. It would have been insane to commit resources on it 3 years or more ago.
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It would have been insane to commit resources on it 3 years or more ago.
Yet there WAS a Logos Bible App (VERY basic reader) that was available in the Microsoft store at least 9 years ago [I had in on my Surface Pro 1st generation]. This app (only a basic reader) was also able to be accessed on the first generation of Surface (not pro) that ran on ARM architecture. Logos was in this space, left this space when Microsoft strongly favored intel, then re-entered the space when Apple turned to ARM silicon.
I still have this app on my last Surface Pro (4), but can no longer download/install it on my current SP7,
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = Logos10 on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet) & FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.
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Remember when we put a WinRT app up on Community Pricing? Good times.
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Yes, and I was more than willing to bid more than the going rate for it at the time!
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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