LOGOS on arm (Surface Pro 11)

How was it? Any  screenshot to share?

Its running fine for me on a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7x.   Its maybe a bit sluggish loading resources for the first time in a session and I probably haven't put it through its paces yet in every bit of functionality but it definitely runs and is usable....probably wouldn't have thought twice about the bit of lag without looking for it knowing that its running emulated.

I've got about 1500 resources in my library.  I didn't watch it install/index so not much feedback on that.

Its looks and acts the same as it does on my Core i7 pc with the same amount of RAM.

For the last 1.5 years, I've been working on Lenovo Yoga laptop. At home I have two monitor that I work off of and  I use the laptop for studying, preparing, preaching and teaching... when preaching and teaching, I fold the screen over backwards and with the touch screen... I have a 14 inch tablet.  It works great, runs Logos very well.... and was relative inexpensive when I purchased it.  There is always bigger better and such... but good is good. 

If the crashing becomes too frequent, I will probably trade it in for a yoga or similar. Is it crashing for anyone else? I often have many tabs open.

Windows 11 on the new Snapdragon ARM is essentially a brand new platform. Virtually untested and rushed into production to try to announce before Apples WWDC24.

Logos does not support this platform (My guess is that they will soon, but who knows?).

The Windows version of Logos is targeting an Intel Processor and an x86-64 version of Windows.

The reason it ran for you at all is because Microsoft is using a new translation technology called PRISM, which is an ARM emulation of the Intel processor instruction set.

Microsoft is doing basically the same thing that Apple did with its Rosetta emulation software when they switched the new macs to their own ARM chip, the M1.

I experimented with Windows 11 ARM in a VMWARE virtual machine on my M2 Macbook Air. It ran everything I tried, but I did not try Logos. It would not make sense to run Logos in an emulated environment when it runs natively as an ARM version on the M2. The screenshot shows Windows 11 ARM running on an M2 Macbook Air, running an old version of Bibleworks.

It ran everything perfectly. But the version of Windows I installed was a preview version which was automatically downloaded through the VMWARE Fusion program. More info here.

This article implies that if you do not have the preview version, you may be running an older version of the PRISM emulation layer.

Microsoft says “Prism” translation layer does for Arm PCs what Rosetta did for Macs">

Microsoft says that Prism isn’t just a new name for the same old translation technology. Translated apps should run between 10 and 20 percent faster on the same Arm hardware after installing the Windows 11 24H2 update

How long before there is a native version of Logos for Windows ARM? I don't know. Make sure you have the latest version of Windows 11. It is possible that only beta versions will run emulation well.

The good news is ... lots of sales going on right now... the stores do not want to get stuck with the Intel Windows machines [:D]

Me personally, I switched to Mac and never looking back.

P.S. - Discovered this link after my post. A few others are also experiencing sluggish performance and crashes

I thought readers looking at this thread might be interested in this test by The Verge web site (technology-agnostic), comparing the latest Qualcomm/Snapdragon-powered ARM to Intel, AMD, and Mac technologies. Microsoft Surface ARM laptops powered by the latest Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite X1E-80-100 chip handily beat Intel and AMD technologies, and (mostly) beat the MacBook Air, but not last year’s MacBook Pro models. Note this does NOT compare to the 2024/M4 version of the MacBook Pros.

They test performance, emulation, GPU, and battery.

Enjoy!

https://www.theverge.com/24191671/copilot-plus-pcs-laptops-qualcomm-intel-amd-apple

John, you didn't read what I said, or the article, carefully enough. 

"I knew when I saw your post that it was not accurate. There is a lot more to system performance than peak processing speed."

- did you see I did mention the benchmark results,  which are accurate for a benchmark, yet I ALSO summarized the article which said the MacBook Pro was faster in performance, emulation, GPU, and battery efficiency? 

"To be a fair test, you have to benchmark against a MacBook Pro, and then you find out that even the M2 wins almost everything, especially graphics."

- again, you didn't read past the first sentence. I DID note the M-series success that the article states, and that they did not test with the latest, 2024 MacBook Pro (which would have even better results). What I said about the Air was accurate.

- I also mention that I put that out so that people considering a Surface would know there could be some advantages to the ARM performance that they were not aware of, vs. Intel and AMD. You correctly brought up some other issues.

John I was trying to just post an article with legitimate test results, and summarized it. I believe what I stated, and the article, are both accurate in what they state and complete in their topic(s). Your comment "I knew when I saw your post that it was not accurate" is confrontational.

This was not meant to initiate a debate about platforms.  No need to get upset because you feel slighted by Microsoft. I too am primarily a Mac user. Just be fair and read what someone posts before you criticize them. 

John, you didn't read what I said, or the article, carefully enough. 

Yes I did read it, but to be honest it was a long article, and my response was mostly to the article. Sorry if you felt I was being to confrontational.

Oh and by the way - "Does this imply that a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.

-Logos ran quite well on Parallels/Mac before they went native, I used it for months. If you are just referring to Microsoft's solution, please be more specific in your criticisms.

Parallels is to virtualize an entire operating system. You did not mention Rosetta, but I would assume this is what you are talking about? Logos Intel version running on Apple M series chips?

The success of Rosetta is the result of Apple as a company doing things right. But Microsoft is a completely different company.

Not sure how Parallels/Mac running ok for you on a Mac means that this new Microsoft platform will automatically run ok? The Logos users who have tried it are reporting bad performance and crashes.

My post is simply to warn people that it is not a good plan to buy an unsupported system to run Logos. When Logos releases a native Windows/ARM version, then it will make a lot more sense. The only thing these new ARM systems have to offer is hype about AI and Copilot.

I'll chime in here as well.  I got a Surface Laptop 7 and installed Logos.  It's been running very well, and I've experienced no issues so far.  When doing a passage guide, it is a bit slower than a comparable Intel i7, but I put that down to running on top of PRISM emulation.  While this is a good result, I do hope that Logos gets a native ARM version.

Would love to hear an udate on this from FL

I could imagine it happening if the market size is big enough. Logos is now using many very modern and portable apis. Very recent .NET and Chromium etc. These things are often harder than they sound but the design choices they've made in recent years tend towards the app being easier to port to new platforms than it was back when they first ported to mac for example.

I remember reading many years ago that Intel was threatening legal action against x86 emulation. Like this article from 2017:

arstechnica.com">

Intel fires warning shots at Microsoft, claims x86 emulation is a patent minefield

Intel doesn't name names, but Windows 10 on ARM is surely the target of its ire.

The link to the Intel site is no longer functional, but can be read here.

I'm not sure what the status is now. It is possible that Microsoft has made deals with Intel which gave access to x86 patents.

But ... if Intel wanted too, it could probably shut down the whole emulation game with a big patent infringement lawsuit.

IMHO it makes sense to watch it but not jump too fast.

Having the Apple ARM version should make the port easier; there are differences in the Apple hardware, but the 2 architectures are mostly similar I think. (I am not a Logos developer though!) 

Also, IDC projects ARM/CoPilot PCs to be less than 3% of total PC sales this year. It's new. With a long list of software needs at Logos, I would not invest resources in this yet either.

Bradley's been considering it for 3 years, it will be a well-reasoned response.

well some version of ARM solution, poor as it was, has been out since 2019. Only recently has MS had all the pieces to signify legitimate support of ARM. It would have been insane to commit resources on it 3 years or more ago.