LOGOS on arm (Surface Pro 11)

A few weeks ago, I authored a post where I asked for tablet recommendations compatible with LOGOS. Just wanted to post an update that I purchased a new Surface Pro 11 (ARM) and so far LOGOS is performing well. Just thought I would share. Thanks for the advice!

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Rommel

How was it? Any screenshot to share?

Rommel

How was it? Any screenshot to share?

Ryan Schroeder

Its running fine for me on a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7x. Its maybe a bit sluggish loading resources for the first time in a session and I probably haven't put it through its paces yet in every bit of functionality but it definitely runs and is usable....probably wouldn't have thought twice about the bit of lag without looking for it knowing that its running emulated.

I've got about 1500 resources in my library. I didn't watch it install/index so not much feedback on that.

Its looks and acts the same as it does on my Core i7 pc with the same amount of RAM.

Daniel Edgecombe

Took the plunge and got the Surface Pro 11 (Elite with 32 RAM). Library is over 10,000 books and was a 42GB install. So far fine (coming from a Surface Pro7+ i7). Have yet to really push it though.

xnman

For the last 1.5 years, I've been working on Lenovo Yoga laptop. At home I have two monitor that I work off of and I use the laptop for studying, preparing, preaching and teaching... when preaching and teaching, I fold the screen over backwards and with the touch screen... I have a 14 inch tablet. It works great, runs Logos very well.... and was relative inexpensive when I purchased it. There is always bigger better and such... but good is good.

Mark G

After using it some more I would say it runs acceptably well - but it does crash which is annoying. It's sluggish but not so slow as to be annoying. I'm still deciding whether I will return the Surface as this was the only reason I was considering it - I wanted a comfortable tablet to run LOGOS while lounging comfortably.

If the crashing becomes too frequent, I will probably trade it in for a yoga or similar. Is it crashing for anyone else? I often have many tabs open.

John

If the crashing becomes too frequent, I will probably trade it in for a yoga or similar. Is it crashing for anyone else? I often have many tabs open.

Windows 11 on the new Snapdragon ARM is essentially a brand new platform. Virtually untested and rushed into production to try to announce before Apples WWDC24.

Logos does not support this platform (My guess is that they will soon, but who knows?).

The Windows version of Logos is targeting an Intel Processor and an x86-64 version of Windows.

The reason it ran for you at all is because Microsoft is using a new translation technology called PRISM, which is an ARM emulation of the Intel processor instruction set.

Microsoft is doing basically the same thing that Apple did with its Rosetta emulation software when they switched the new macs to their own ARM chip, the M1.

I experimented with Windows 11 ARM in a VMWARE virtual machine on my M2 Macbook Air. It ran everything I tried, but I did not try Logos. It would not make sense to run Logos in an emulated environment when it runs natively as an ARM version on the M2. The screenshot shows Windows 11 ARM running on an M2 Macbook Air, running an old version of Bibleworks.

It ran everything perfectly. But the version of Windows I installed was a preview version which was automatically downloaded through the VMWARE Fusion program. More info here.

This article implies that if you do not have the preview version, you may be running an older version of the PRISM emulation layer.

Microsoft says “Prism” translation layer does for Arm PCs what Rosetta did for Macs">
Microsoft says that Prism isn’t just a new name for the same old translation technology. Translated apps should run between 10 and 20 percent faster on the same Arm hardware after installing the Windows 11 24H2 update

How long before there is a native version of Logos for Windows ARM? I don't know. Make sure you have the latest version of Windows 11. It is possible that only beta versions will run emulation well.

The good news is ... lots of sales going on right now... the stores do not want to get stuck with the Intel Windows machines [:D]

Me personally, I switched to Mac and never looking back.

P.S. - Discovered this link after my post. A few others are also experiencing sluggish performance and crashes

Darren Swartzendruber

I went for the Surface Laptop 7 after being on Surface Pros since the very first one (lapability)! Love it and Logos is also running well for me, though I have noticed that my last layout is not automatically loaded when I start Logos.

Also, leave your feedback on this official Logos FEEDBACK post on this topic ... Native support for Windows on ARM | Logos.

Don Awalt

I thought readers looking at this thread might be interested in this test by The Verge web site (technology-agnostic), comparing the latest Qualcomm/Snapdragon-powered ARM to Intel, AMD, and Mac technologies. Microsoft Surface ARM laptops powered by the latest Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite X1E-80-100 chip handily beat Intel and AMD technologies, and (mostly) beat the MacBook Air, but not last year’s MacBook Pro models. Note this does NOT compare to the 2024/M4 version of the MacBook Pros.

They test performance, emulation, GPU, and battery.

Enjoy!

https://www.theverge.com/24191671/copilot-plus-pcs-laptops-qualcomm-intel-amd-apple

John

I am a former Windows/Android user who switched to MacOS/iOS; Around the time Microsoft was *forcing* happy Windows 7 users to download large updates to "prepare" for the coming *forced* update to Windows 8.

So I have been watching this rollout with much interest. As a lifelong Windows user I have a huge library of older (legacy x86 Windows) software I still have an interest in running. For me the issue is not about ARM and being faster than Apple, it is about whether I can live with Microsofts practices.

I am currently testing Windows 11 virtualized on the Mac (both Intel and M2) and may report my findings later when I have something conclusive to share.

For now I would warn you, Logos does not support Windows 11 on the new Snapdragon ARM.

People are trying it out using x86_64 emulation but having crashes and performance problems.

This thread: Native support for Windows on ARM has been around 3+ years. But if you scroll all the way to the bottom, you will find the recent experience of those who have tried this.

Unless you enjoy being a Guinea pig for alpha and beta testing new and unproven things, I would recommend you stick with Intel for now, Even if you plan on getting a new Surface. If Logos is important to you, why buy an expensive platform that Logos does not currently support?

AI, Co-pilot are currently not dependent upon the hardware. They do not utilize NPU and there is no commercial software that currently does utilize the NPU.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs">
Why follow when you can set the pace? With the NPU on the Snapdragon® X Series processor, you’ll have 45 trillion operations per second (TOPS) to work with.

These claims are a marketing promise, not a current reality. The hardware is there on the system, but there is no software that uses it, and Microsoft to my knowlege has not announced any way for developers to access it. I believe Microsoft will eventually make it work, but to claim they are ahead of Apple is simply deceptive marketing.

https://www.theverge.com/24191671/copilot-plus-pcs-laptops-qualcomm-intel-amd-apple">
Microsoft hasn’t had the greatest reputation when it comes to x86 emulation on Arm, and while its new Prism emulator is much faster, it’s still not fast enough for heavyweight apps.

This quote is from the article you linked to. Does this imply that a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.

Microsoft Surface ARM laptops powered by the latest Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite X1E-80-100 chip handily beat Intel and AMD technologies

I knew when I saw your post that something was not accurate. After reading the article I realized the headline did not reflect that Apple was the real winner. There is a lot more to system performance than peak processing speed. Apple has integrated their entire system for performance. The tests and charts show Apple chips winning, but the headline ignores that and only compares Snapdragon X to Intel and AMD.

One youtube channel did a particularly good job at reporting comprehensive benchmarks of these platforms (including prototypes of Apples M4 which has not been released yet): M4 Macs - Can Intel Lunar Lake & AMD HX 370 BEAT Apple?!

The results reported there are accurate and tell the truth. Many people are buying into Microsoft's marketing hype and reporting that the new Snapdragon X is beating Apple. It is not. It does not even beat the Apple M2.

Many tests (including the article you linked to) have compared the MacBook Air against these, which is highly misleading because the MB Air is not designed for raw performance. It has no cooling fan, so intensive operations that cause the generation of a lot of heat will automatically slow the processing down. To be a fair test, you have to benchmark against a MacBook Pro, and then you find out that even the M2 wins almost everything, especially graphics.

As far as Windows 11 vs MacOS goes, it would be hard to know where to start. Microsoft is forcing Windows users into their cloud. If that is what you want, then you might enjoy Windows 11. Windows 11 will not install without creating a Microsoft login. It will force upload all of your data to OneDrive. You cannot turn it off. You have no control over updates. Microsoft basically owns your computer.

I love the icloud features Apple has provided. But there is one important thing that Apple did not forget ... that is the ON/OFF switch. Nobody is forced to use icloud. And now that I have utilized icloud, I have no use for Microsoft's own Windows/Office/OneDrive cloud.

There are hacks to get around Microsoft's issues, but it is getting harder. Microsoft has already patched things so the easy ones no longer work. I am trying out a modified install media called tiny11 (I still need a good way to virtualize all my old software), but that is beyond the scope of this forum.

Don Awalt

John, you didn't read what I said, or the article, carefully enough.

"I knew when I saw your post that it was not accurate. There is a lot more to system performance than peak processing speed."

- did you see I did mention the benchmark results, which are accurate for a benchmark, yet I ALSO summarized the article which said the MacBook Pro was faster in performance, emulation, GPU, and battery efficiency?

"To be a fair test, you have to benchmark against a MacBook Pro, and then you find out that even the M2 wins almost everything, especially graphics."

- again, you didn't read past the first sentence. I DID note the M-series success that the article states, and that they did not test with the latest, 2024 MacBook Pro (which would have even better results). What I said about the Air was accurate.

- I also mention that I put that out so that people considering a Surface would know there could be some advantages to the ARM performance that they were not aware of, vs. Intel and AMD. You correctly brought up some other issues.

John I was trying to just post an article with legitimate test results, and summarized it. I believe what I stated, and the article, are both accurate in what they state and complete in their topic(s). Your comment "I knew when I saw your post that it was not accurate" is confrontational.

This was not meant to initiate a debate about platforms. No need to get upset because you feel slighted by Microsoft. I too am primarily a Mac user. Just be fair and read what someone posts before you criticize them.

Don Awalt

Oh and by the way - "Does this imply that a huge resource intensive program like Logos will run well under emulation? I don't think so.

-Logos ran quite well on Parallels/Mac before they went native, I used it for months. If you are just referring to Microsoft's solution, please be more specific in your criticisms.

Bob Price

I'll chime in here as well. I got a Surface Laptop 7 and installed Logos. It's been running very well, and I've experienced no issues so far. When doing a passage guide, it is a bit slower than a comparable Intel i7, but I put that down to running on top of PRISM emulation. While this is a good result, I do hope that Logos gets a native ARM version.

John

I'll chime in here as well. I got a Surface Laptop 7 and installed Logos. It's been running very well, and I've experienced no issues so far. When doing a passage guide, it is a bit slower than a comparable Intel i7, but I put that down to running on top of PRISM emulation. While this is a good result, I do hope that Logos gets a native ARM version.

The emulation is amazing. It runs most x86 programs. Where it has problems is when those programs require maximum performance.

Also keep in mind that when utilizing emulation, all claims of efficiency and battery life disappear. I know most people don't care. I don't. I usually have mine plugged in anyway.

One company that is on board with the new systems is Adobe. It has already released native ARM versions of many of its programs. But the most processor intensive are being delayed until "later this year". These programs require a lot of processing power and simply cannot run under the emulation. Adobe is not supporting these programs under emulation.

tomsguide.com">
There are apps that don't take as much processing power that can run via emulation without notice but Adobe's programs are not that, especially Premiere Pro and After Effects.

Windows Central did test Adobe products and said that emulated version of Premiere Pro struggled with multiple layers and effects and rendering was vastly increased over Intel devices.

Glad to hear it is working for you, and hopefully Logos will consider a native ARM version. It does appear that these new machines are being supported by a lot of software developers. [Y]

(I still don't recommend anyone buy one, until Logos is supporting it)

Mark

Would love to hear an udate on this from FL

Chad Katter

Would love to hear an update on this from FL

I agree

Timothy Simmons

I was one of the first to purchase a Microsoft ARM chip used on the on the Surface Pro X2. I attempted to run the version of Logos available at that time on that laptop and it failed miserably. It installed but took an extremely long time to do so. After installation, it would then take a very long time to load each time I went to use it. After loading, it was choppy, sluggish, and, basically, unusable. To use Logos on that 2-in-1, I had to revert to using the web version of Logos only. Unless Microsoft's emulator has had drastic improvements on its Surface Pro 11, I am not making that mistake again and not going to dish out $1,500 for the best processor and RAM needed.

To be fair, it was not Logos' fault it did not run nice on that laptop. It was simply the emulator was horrible and could not handle it. Really, no non-ARM apps ran nicely. Apple's Rosetta emulator never had an issue and ran it as fast as a native app, even on Apple's first M1 chip. Like many have said on this forum, running it on a Mac can't be beat.

Michael E Williams

Thank you all for the information in this thread. I run a desktop with an i9/64 GB memory and Logos is super fast, not sluggish at all. Just got a Surface Laptop 7 with 64 GB memory, and was surprised that Logos was a little sluggish, similar to performance on an older i7.

Certainly usable, just was surprised, but now have a better understanding of why there could be a performance difference

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1349183#Comment_1349183

Thank you for a relevant comparison! I'm watching with interest—still using a SP7 with a maxed out SSD because I'm not ready to jump on the ARM bandwagon, but the Intel's are significantly higher price for the "business models"