a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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Graham Criddle said:
Sounds like you might be looking for the Syntax Search capability - Greek syntax searching is outlined at https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017808131-Greek-Syntax-Search but the capability works in a similar way for Hebrew as well.
Graham to the rescue again. I’ve been meaning to dig into syntax options in Logos and this is what I needed. Thank you!
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Mark Allison said:Graham Criddle said:
Sounds like you might be looking for the Syntax Search capability
Thanks Graham! They look like what I need. Did you create the videos?
Yes I did
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Mark Allison said:
Here's my issue with the inability to rename tabs: I like having a Moprh search open and then blasting through multiple searches, none of which I'll ever save. I don't want to have to create a new morph search with a new name that will end up in Documents,
Renaming tabs is not as good as you think in Logos. Names get truncated as the number of tabs increase and you will only see a Search icon, or have to scroll the tabs to see what is off-screen (even after 10 tabs[:)]).
It would be better to work with Logos rather than try to recreate a familiar environment. For example, it takes time to set up the 4 Search tabs as you did. If that is optimal for you why not save that as a layout and use "Send Searches here" to direct the results to a particular tab. You can keep "blasting" at one tab until you want to "save" it, and then redirect to another tab. But somewhere you will want to save the actual Query document rather than having a perpetual "Greek Search" document.
If I take your screenshot at face value you would not know how to recreate the Query represented by a Search tab even if you renamed it...
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
If I take your screenshot at face value you would not know how to recreate the Query represented by a Search tab even if you renamed it...
When I'm performing searches like this I don't want to recreate the query or save it. I just want to be able to glance at what I've done during a cursory comparison. I realize the tabs will get smaller and the text unreadable, which is why every program I've ever used that had tabs would allow the user to hover over the tab to see the full name in a popup.
I understand that I could adjust my workflow in a way that Logos believes is best for me, but if tabs were able to be renamed, I wouldn't have to adjust my workflow at all, and neither would the many Accordance users that will be moving to Logos in the near future.
Having said that, I'll probably abandon the morph query and just do all my searches in the search tab. But it's a pain point that just seems unnecessary.0 -
Graham Criddle said:
Yes I did
I've only watched the first three videos and already I feel like I have a comfortable grasp of how syntax works in Logos. Very well done!
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Mark Allison said:
When I'm performing searches like this I don't want to recreate the query or save it. I just want to be able to glance at what I've done during a cursory comparison. I realize the tabs will get smaller and the text unreadable, which is why every program I've ever used that had tabs would allow the user to hover over the tab to see the full name in a popup.
I understand that I could adjust my workflow in a way that Logos believes is best for me, but if tabs were able to be renamed, I wouldn't have to adjust my workflow at all, and neither would the many Accordance users that will be moving to Logos in the near future.
Having said that, I'll probably abandon the morph query and just do all my searches in the search tab. But it's a pain point that just seems unnecessary.I agree. When you are trying to return to a piece of your work, you can quickly hover each tab. The alternative is that you have to study the contents of that panel which adds friction to your workflow.
In my opinion, this would not be disruptive to the UI. It will stay out of the way performing as a static tab label to the users that don’t want it. It would be a real value add though to those that mange large numbers of tabs.
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Mark Allison said:
When I'm performing searches like this I don't want to recreate the query or save it. I just want to be able to glance at what I've done during a cursory comparison. I realize the tabs will get smaller and the text unreadable, which is why every program I've ever used that had tabs would allow the user to hover over the tab to see the full name in a popup.
I suspect, you can plan on a subscription feature. It's been an issue for years, and now Accordance-poaching too.
- Not only searches, but other tool tabs need renaming: BWS's, Text Comparisons, Cited By's, etc My main layout has multiples of each (160 tabs)
- Layouts with multiple same-name tabs are worse .. you quickly forget tab contents, even just days ago
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
In seminars we would often have a text in Sanskrit-Tibetan-Chinese-Japanese with adjuncts in Korean, Mongolian, Khotanese, Uighur, etc. You had to be able to deal with at least two of the languages. 5 or 6 tabs per language would get me through anything academic.
Hi MJ,
Your education sounds really interesting.
Anyway, I think what you wrote might clarify the situation a little. "5 or 6 tabs per language" is great for study or education, but for research specifically it is generally not. Likewise, only having 3 languages open at once is also uncommon for research. I think what Mark wrote might explain it well:Mark Allison said:Here's my issue with the inability to rename tabs: I like having a Moprh search open and then blasting through multiple searches, none of which I'll ever save. I don't want to have to create a new morph search with a new name that will end up in Documents, when I'll never use this search again... When I'm performing searches like this I don't want to recreate the query or save it. I just want to be able to glance at what I've done during a cursory comparison.
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DMB said:
I suspect, you can plan on a subscription feature. It's been an issue for years, and now Accordance-poaching too.
- Not only searches, but other tool tabs need renaming: BWS's, Text Comparisons, Cited By's, etc My main layout has multiples of each (160 tabs)
- Layouts with multiple same-name tabs are worse .. you quickly forget tab contents, even just days ago
I sometimes think these UI artifacts go back to Logos’ Libronix Library days. Why would you want to rename a tab if your focal point is a book? What BibleWorks and Accordamce did in these early days is optimize their UI’s to those that drill around on the texts. This is not to say that you can’t do this in Logos, but in early versions of Logos we had user friendly features like Passage Guide, while these other programmes were delivering other features to manage what was at the time, some cutting edge texts, whilst Logos was making a large library of resources accessible
Anyhow, that’s a theory I have. The differences between Accordance and Logos are not that big anymore, and these are little nice to haves which I hope will be considered.
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Graham Criddle said:
When you have a Bible open, did you try right-clicking a word as opposed to double/triple-clicking it?
Hi Graham,
I just opened a random Bible, and you are correct, double click thankfully brings it to Search. [:)] After doing so, the first time clicking on the word from search brought up that "Send to Proclaim" again, but then the second time it didn't, and I am not sure what I did differently. Given that, I just re-ran that morph search and now magically if I right click it gives the option to copy. So I am not sure what changed in the past 45 seconds, but it seems to be working now.
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Kristin said:
I just opened a random Bible, and you are correct, double click thankfully brings it to Search.
I wasn't suggesting double-clicking but right-clicking a word in a Bible. I would really encourage you to try that as it opens up a wide range of options.
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Mark Allison said:
I understand that I could adjust my workflow in a way that Logos believes is best for me, but if tabs were able to be renamed, I wouldn't have to adjust my workflow at all, and neither would the many Accordance users that will be moving to Logos in the near future.
Hi Mark,
That is true, and I would also argue that I appreciate Accordance in a whole new way. I haven't completely finished that video tutorial I discovered yesterday, but I got through about half of it so far. The last part I saw was when the guy was advertising how you can look up Greek words without knowing Greek. [:|] He even said "Even though we might not known an Alpha from and Omega, we are getting to some very detailed Greek information" and explains how to look up Greek words.
I then thought, "well, maybe the next section 'Study a Word from Scratch' will finally use languages, but his sample "from scratch" word is "Worship."Anyway, though this process I have been really struck what a remarkable 5 star resource Logos is for pastors...
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Mark Allison said:
I realize the tabs will get smaller and the text unreadable, which is why every program I've ever used that had tabs would allow the user to hover over the tab to see the full name in a popup.
Hi Mark,
I had meant to comment to this and I accidentally pressed "post" instead of "enter." [:)]
Anyway, what you said is correct, but in Accordance you can likewise detach the tab and create a new Workspace. I see that in Logos there is that "floating window" which is sometimes helpful, but this floating window seems to just be a pop-out from the main workspace, and not truly independent. Is that correct? Likewise, is there a way to make multiple workspaces?
Graham Criddle said:I wasn't suggesting double-clicking but right-clicking a word in a Bible. I would really encourage you to try that as it opens up a wide range of options.
Hi Graham,
Thank you for clarifying. I think something had been off in my settings, as now it seems to be working. If I double click it opens search, but if I only click once I can copy. So I am grateful for that Proclaim thing to be gone. I am not entirely sure what changed, but it is working now.
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Kristin said:
Likewise, is there a way to make multiple workspaces?
I think the Logos "Layout" would be equivalent to the Accordance Workspace. However, I haven't been able to figure out if you can have multiple layouts open in Logos like you can in Accordance.
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Mark Allison said:Kristin said:
Likewise, is there a way to make multiple workspaces?
I think the Logos "Layout" would be equivalent to the Accordance Workspace. However, I haven't been able to figure out if you can have multiple layouts open in Logos like you can in Accordance.
No you can't (some users are pushing for it). You can have most components open multiple times within the one layout that might span as many monitors you can manage in your OS. If a user would really need two totally different workspaces, they could install the Verbum application, which is basically the same software with a different logo icon.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Kristin said:
Anyway, what you said is correct, but in Accordance you can likewise detach the tab and create a new Workspace. I see that in Logos there is that "floating window" which is sometimes helpful, but this floating window seems to just be a pop-out from the main workspace, and not truly independent. Is that correct? Likewise, is there a way to make multiple workspaces?
You can sort of treat this floating window as another workspace... add more tabs of searches, resources, etc., but it is not another workspace.
Why is this significant?
- In the main menus, any tools that you open will default to the main workspace area, so it is a bit kludgy.
- If you develop this floating window into a significant piece of work, there is no way to easily save it on its own for future use.
There is a feedback item to vote on.
https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/allow-multiple-application-instances
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Mark Allison said:
I think the Logos "Layout" would be equivalent to the Accordance Workspace. However, I haven't been able to figure out if you can have multiple layouts open in Logos like you can in Accordance.
Ok, thank you for clarifying. And ya, I agree there layouts are not at all like the Accordance workspaces.
NB.Mick said:No you can't (some users are pushing for it). You can have most components open multiple times within the one layout that might span as many monitors you can manage in your OS. If a user would really need two totally different workspaces, they could install the Verbum application, which is basically the same software with a different logo icon.
Thank you for the confirmation, and that is pretty intense to need to install another software to do what Accordance does natively. That is good to know though.
Donovan R. Palmer said:There is a feedback item to vote on.
https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/allow-multiple-application-instances
Hi Donovan,
Thanks for the feedback link. To be honest, I have been sort of discouraged by the feedback since Logos appears to just be counting votes rather than giving deeper consideration to the need. For example, when the "re-name tabs" idea was first brought up, MJ pointed everyone to a feedback link saying it just didn't have enough support. I can understand that the classic person who has used Logos forever might be ok with it, but as Mark mentioned, if Logos is going to attract academics, fundamental, basic, obvious needs, such as re-naming tabs, needs to be implemented. So it seems the same with this. It is such an obvious need, but votes seem to take priority over logic.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
You can sort of treat this floating window as another workspace... add more tabs of searches, resources, etc., but it is not another workspace.
Why is this significant?
- In the main menus, any tools that you open will default to the main workspace area, so it is a bit kludgy.
- If you develop this floating window into a significant piece of work, there is no way to easily save it on its own for future use.
For clarity:
- A tool will generally be placed next to another same-tool (example: lining up searches on a panel, or series of BWS's. I keep search tabs in my layout, to direct new-search placement.
- Else it (frustratingly) puts a tool next to something similar (it thinks)
So, for example, if I'm on window #2 for hebrew work, and right-click a BWS, it happily puts it on window #4 next to my commentaries. So helpful!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kristin said:
Thanks for the feedback link. To be honest, I have been sort of discouraged by the feedback since Logos appears to just be counting votes rather than giving deeper consideration to the need. For example, when the "re-name tabs" idea was first brought up, MJ pointed everyone to a feedback link saying it just didn't have enough support. I can understand that the classic person who has used Logos forever might be ok with it, but as Mark mentioned, if Logos is going to attract academics, fundamental, basic, obvious needs, such as re-naming tabs, needs to be implemented. So it seems the same with this. It is such an obvious need, but votes seem to take priority over logic.
If you search the forums, on a number of issues over the years the question has been raised how much does Logos pay attention to the feedback site. My impression is that someone goes through it after a number of months and updates some of the status of the items, but there is rarely a comment from management asking for more information or encouragement. I do believe they get read, but it is not a very dynamic website. Plus, I expect that they look at other market data to determine what gets priority. Let's be honest, some of what we talk about for academic and language studies would not be at the top of what Logos sees in the data.... which is where Accordance and BibleWorks were so brilliant. They really targeted this area of studies almost to the expense of a broader customer base at times. This is why a number of us use both programmes to get the best of both worlds.
With this said, Logos has come a long way and the differences are not that great anymore... and maybe Accordance will pull out of its nose dive. The competition through different approaches is very good for the market.
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DMB said:
For clarity:
- A tool will generally be placed next to another same-tool (example: lining up searches on a panel, or series of BWS's. I keep search tabs in my layout, to direct new-search placement.
- Else it (frustratingly) puts a tool next to something similar (it thinks)
So, for example, if I'm on window #2 for hebrew work, and right-click a BWS, it happily puts it on window #4 next to my commentaries. So helpful!
That is very well said.
Years ago, Bob Pritchett used to ask users to record their screens to show our workflows. The goal was to help him and the programmers understand the frustrations we experienced with the UI. I don't think this has been done in recent times.
To me, the inability to have multiple layouts open at the same time has been a real constraint in giving us a broader canvass to design workflows in.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Plus, I expect that they look at other market data to determine what gets priority. Let's be honest, some of what we talk about for academic and language studies would not be at the top of what Logos sees in the data.... which is where Accordance and BibleWorks were so brilliant.
.... With this said, Logos has come a long way and the differences are not that great anymore... and maybe Accordance will pull out of its nose dive. The competition through different approaches is very good for the market.
I don't doubt FL devs are chomping at the bit, to build new subscribe-features. And the PE owner needs new markets (hint, hint, Accordance transfers). So, much of this thread would likely bear fruit.
My bigger concern, is their book-firehose that slurps up devotional books and 2nd year Bible college usage. The old Logos used to produce 'source' work (vs regurgitating Lexham info). Their last was the Strack english translation (good). But I have my doubts, a lot of Accordance modules will make it (in whatever form) to Logos. As much as there's now, both, I suspect Logos will slowly shift to (religious) mass market.
Is it doomed: https://www.logos.com/product/55687
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Let's be honest, some of what we talk about for academic and language studies would not be at the top of what Logos sees in the data.... which is where Accordance and BibleWorks were so brilliant.
Ya, that makes sense. I can see maybe using Logos some after I get used to it, but from what I've seen, Accordance excels in ways which Logos doesn't even try.
Donovan R. Palmer said:With this said, Logos has come a long way and the differences are not that great anymore... and maybe Accordance will pull out of its nose dive. The competition through different approaches is very good for the market.
That is wild that this is an improvement from how it had been. Anyway, ya, I agree completely, and I really hope Accordance remembers its base.
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Please keep in mind that unlike Accordance, Logos is following these threads and they are paying attention to all the feedback from everyone who is migrating from Accordance and they do listen to their customers. It would not surprise me at all if we start seeing Logos add these features that Accordance users appreciate in future updates.
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Kristin said:
That is wild that this is an improvement from how it had been.
This assessment is partly due to your unfamiliarity with Logos and an unfair expectation of being able to complete your work in Logos just as you would in Accordance without putting serious effort into learning and adapting to the software. While you have constructively identified areas of improvement within Logos, an experienced Logos user would no doubt easily identify several missing features in Accordance that function as great hinderances to how they did their work in Logos. I have found some of your recent comments to be a bit too judgmental, considering you are yet very unfamiliar with the Logos software. If your experience with Logos truly is terrible, I would recommend returning before 30 days are up to secure your full refund. But I have found that FL really does listen to and make efforts to serve their users well. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of your concerns directly addressed in the future.
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Brian Leathers said:
Please keep in mind that unlike Accordance, Logos is following these threads and they are paying attention to all the feedback from everyone who is migrating from Accordance and they do listen to their customers.
Wow, that is great to hear! [Y]
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Years ago, Bob Pritchett used to ask users to record their screens to show our workflows. The goal was to help him and the programmers understand the frustrations we experienced with the UI. I don't think this has been done in recent times.
Nope, technology has changed. Mark Barnes asked volunteers for online sessions where he watched the workflow and asked questions ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Nope, technology has changed. Mark Barnes asked volunteers for online sessions where he watched the workflow and asked questions ...
That's great news!
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Aaron Hamilton said:
This assessment is partly due to your unfamiliarity with Logos and an unfair expectation of being able to complete your work in Logos just as you would in Accordance without putting serious effort into learning and adapting to the software.
Hi Aaron,
I would agree with part of this, but not all of it. I agree that part of the problem is simply a lack familiarity, but I would disagree about the lack of "serious effort" comment. To me, taking several hours off of work each day for weeks to try to understand the program is pretty committed. My frustration is, as mentioned before, that the Help center is too general and too long at the same time. However, this new course thing I found has been VERY helpful and is finally explaining basic functions I couldn't find answers to weeks ago.
That said, he is working entirely in English, so I eventually started just modifying his commands in order to experiment. He told us to open the search and type the capital "Father" so I did and changed it to Gk just to see what would happen.
Clicking on a word brings up Proclaim again, and it is starting in John. Any ideas why? I can attach a screenshot. In his tutorial it starts in Mt 5:16 as it should.
Aaron Hamilton said:While you have constructively identified areas of improvement within Logos, an experienced Logos user would no doubt easily identify several missing features in Accordance that function as great hinderances to how they did their work in Logos.
That makes sense, but I can't find these people anywhere. I have searched the Help center, YouTube, and have asked other Accordance users. So while I think you are correct, my understanding is that there are scholars who successfully use Logos, I can't find video tutorials anywhere of this.
Aaron Hamilton said:l. If your experience with Logos truly is terrible, I would recommend returning before 30 days are up to secure your full refund. But I have found that FL really does listen to and make efforts to serve their users well.
To be honest, it has been that bad, and that had crossed my mind. However, though it still isn't particularly usable, I feel fairly confident that 90% of my issues are from lack of experience. I really want to stress, however, that this has NOT been from lack of effort, as I have been working on it for hours for a few weeks. (Frankly, I think that would discourage most people, I think. Fair enough?). While I don't know, I think a lot of the issue is that this tutorial of how to use basic functions is something I literally discovered last night, and I needed this day 1. So I think this will help.
Prior to last night when I would click on help I got this guy speaking in a slow voice and not addressing basic functions, but this new guy is addressing all basic functions. I have literally no idea why I couldn't find this earlier. I guess maybe it is something that was just added, but I am not under that impression. Likewise, Sales didn't tell me about it either, but pointed me to the Webinars which are not nearly as detailed. So it has been a complicated process learning the program, but it hasn't been from lack of effort.0 -
Kristin said:
Clicking on a word brings up Proclaim again, and it is starting in John. Any ideas why? I can attach a screenshot. In his tutorial it starts in Mt 5:16 as it should.Instead of right-clicking, try simply clicking a result which will open the Bible you are searching to that search result
And the reason it starts in John is the Aa button (outlined in blue below) is constraining the search to match case - and the first occurrence of Father with a capital F is in John
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Kristin said:
Clicking on a word brings up Proclaim again, and it is starting in John. Any ideas why? I can attach a screenshot. In his tutorial it starts in Mt 5:16 as it should.
It brought up Copy, Search, and Send to Proclaim because those are the functioned available when you select "selection" in search results. The left side is the selection side of the Context Menu, the right side are the actions available for that selection. But it is uncommon to use the Search result listing as your starting point for actions. The normal pattern is search result --> Bible --> Context Menu because that is what provides you with the full array of Logos options.
The other common way to access information about the Bible text is the Information Panel (under tools or bottom left in Context Menu). Here the "add" button allows you to customize the results. Your priorities are respected in the appropriate sections.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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