a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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Mark Allison said:
Look what I just did :-)
Now that is a cool hack. I do like the Accordance fonts!
What do you use for an English text font?
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Kristin said:
I think this is a good example of how unintuitive Logos is.
Please remember that "intuitive" is in the eye of the beholder. What does/doesn't make sense to you isn't necessarily what does/doesn't make sense to someone else. I've responded to numerous people over the years on the Accordance forums who were lost because there wasn't a verse picker. They thought Accordance was very unintuitive.
With that said... I do like being able to enter a string of references and have them all display. I have a few use cases for this, particularly on mobile where entering references into a passage list is a bit cumbersome. So I hope this could be considered for a future feature improvement.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Now that is a cool hack. I do like the Accordance fonts!
What do you use for an English text font?
I was wondering that too. [:)]
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Jonathan Huber said:
Please remember that "intuitive" is in the eye of the beholder. What does/doesn't make sense to you isn't necessarily what does/doesn't make sense to someone else.
Hi Jonathan,
Ya, that is of course true, and I do. My comments are concerning the perspective of myself. I am not claiming to speak on behalf of pastors, or people who don't use Bible software, or people who are not advanced in biblical languages. All these individuals have very unique needs which are all important and they can speak for themselves. So my comments are of course referring to my academic work.
The idea of searching for a lex and copying the first hit is the type of thing I do multiple times a day. As demonstrated above, in Accordance that is a 3 step process, while in Logos it is an 8 step process, making it not great for my needs. Sorry for any confusion I might have caused by my comment, it wasn't intentional.0 -
Okay, this really is a great thread!
Well, I have a question too! How one would go about running queries on the cantillation marks /te'amim on the Hebrew Bible in Logos. For example:
(1a) Finding all the instances when telisha gadol and geresh/gershayim appear on the same word? (e.g Ezek 48:10 ולאלה) .
(1b) Or, designing a search in order to find all words with double cantillation marks?
(2) Fine all instances where a shalshelet appears ?
(3) Search for cantillation patterns or strings such as for instance where a Mercha followed by a Tipcha followed by Mercha ending with a Sof Pasuk ? Or the following: Mercha, Tipcha, Munach, Etnachta ?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Jonathan Huber said:
Please remember that "intuitive" is in the eye of the beholder. What does/doesn't make sense to you isn't necessarily what does/doesn't make sense to someone else. I've responded to numerous people over the years on the Accordance forums who were lost because there wasn't a verse picker. They thought Accordance was very unintuitive.
This is so true, and to be fair Logo's challenge is its broad user base. There are so many use cases that would influence agreement on what is intuitive. This is on top of users coming from another platform where there are other approaches. I remember the WordSearch community adapting to the Logos way. It is often not easy.
With that said, seeing Rick's endorsement and watching Kristin and Mark with a few Logosians put the software through its paces makes this thread invaluable. It is probably not appropriate to pin it, but it does merit some of the best posts or conclusions being collected for other Accordance users who might come, or have the emphasis of study that even includes some of the BibleWorks customers that joined Accordance not that long ago.
I too, have found this to be a fascinating, and the hacks like the font are a cool Bible nerd option. It is fun to be excited about Bible software again.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
What do you use for an English text font?
I'm just using the default book font. It's seems sort of "neutral" to me, that's fine.
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Mark Allison said:
I'm just using the default book font. It's seems sort of "neutral" to me, that's fine.
I recently switched from default to GentiumAlt. I don't know why, but I think I liked the lighter font on my MBP Retina screen. Type of screen does make a difference!
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BKMitchell said:
(1a) Finding all the instances when telisha gadol and geresh/gershayim appear on the same word? (e.g Ezek 48:10 ולאלה) .
Hi BKMitchell,
I am wondering that too. I tried a few things but can't get a consistent result. Also... btw... do you intend for the vav to be there at the front?
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If you have Accordance installed, the font will already be on your system. But if you need to download it, it's available here (it has an open license btw):
https://www.accordancebible.com/Accordance-Font/(Hope it's okay to post a link like this).
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I recently switched from default to GentiumAlt. I don't know why, but I think I liked the lighter font on my MBP Retina screen. Type of screen does make a difference!
Yes! I like it a lot. Think I'll go with it.
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Kristin said:
I think this is a good example of how unintuitive Logos is. In Accordance I can just go to the Search bar (I guess closer to Logos "Bible" I think), and just type what I want. A word, a verse, verses in biblical order, verses in my own order, etc, etc. It is a one step process. While it is good that there is a way to organize passages in Logos, it is kind of confusing that I need to do something with Documents, and also, this is a multistep process, which frankly doesn't sound realistic in a classroom setting.
If there wasn't the constraint of being able to specify verses in your own order, you could do something similar in an Inline Search
The OR is needed between the references as otherwise Logos will default to using AND and search for occurrences of all four terms in the same place
And I have specified searching for Surface Text only as otherwise it would also pick up cross-references to those verses
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
With that said, seeing Rick's endorsement and watching Kristin and Mark with a few Logosians put the software through its paces makes this thread invaluable... It is fun to be excited about Bible software again.
That is encouraging to hear. [:)]
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Kristin said:
Sort of similarly, after I type my verses in my own order and press enter in Accordance, I can then copy the verses, copy the references, or simply right click and search the lex. So to search the lex in Accordance is two steps, but I will add three to copy the word. So to search for the first instance of a lex for both programs:
Accordance
1) right click
2) search lex
3) copy word
Logos
1) right click
2) click the little language wheel thing
3) click "Bible"
4) click a verse to actually re-open the Bible
5) right click
6) copy
7) paste somewhere else to get rid of the hyperlink
8) copy plain text wordI can't imagine 8 steps in Logos necessary. I can right-click even untagged hebrew, another click for the lemma: 3 clicks plus copy. And all my lexicons pop to that lemma for in-depth review (usually click-thru to Qumran and inscriptions).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Graham Criddle said:
If there wasn't the constraint of being able to specify verses in your own order, you could do something similar in an Inline Search
I think this will be fine for many use cases. Thanks Graham!
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Kristin said:
Sort of similarly, after I type my verses in my own order and press enter in Accordance, I can then copy the verses, copy the references, or simply right click and search the lex. So to search the lex in Accordance is two steps, but I will add three to copy the word. So to search for the first instance of a lex for both programs:
Accordance
1) right click
2) search lex
3) copy word
Logos
1) right click
2) click the little language wheel thing
3) click "Bible"
4) click a verse to actually re-open the Bible
5) right click
6) copy
7) paste somewhere else to get rid of the hyperlink
8) copy plain text wordI'm struggling to understand the process you are outlining so can't think about whether there is an alternative way to do this in Logos.
I understand it to be searching for a word and then copying the word - but I don't understand why you are copying the word when you already know it. Or are you copying the whole verse, the reference or something else?
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DMB said:
I can't imagine 8 steps in Logos necessary.
Agreed. Trying to replicate that process made me feel dizzy. Kristin, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to accomplish, but I assure you there's a better way. Keep in mind that the context menu remembers your selection, so if you're doing the same thing, you don't have to reselect the lemma every time you right click.
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Graham Criddle said:
I understand it to be searching for a word and then copying the word - but I don't understand why you are copying the word when you already know it. Or are you copying the whole verse, the reference or something else?
Hi Graham,
This is just a hypothetical example, but let's say I am in John 1:1 and I notice the word λόγος. I then want to copy the inflected form of the first instance in the entire NT.
So in Accordance I can:
1. right click λόγος
2. search for the lex
3. discover that the first instance is in Mt 5:32 and copy λόγου.So in Accordance that is a 3 step process, but to do the same thing in Logos appears to be an 8 step process.
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Kristin said:
Accordance
1) right click
2) search lex
3) copy word
Logos
1) right click
2) click the little language wheel thing
3) click "Bible"
4) click a verse to actually re-open the Bible
5) right click
6) copy
7) paste somewhere else to get rid of the hyperlink
8) copy plain text wordIn Logos, can't you right-click on the word, select the lexical form in the popup, and then copy the word?
For example, if I see "ἀφῆκεν" in the text, I can right-click on it and select the lexical form (ἀφίημι).
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Trying to replicate that process made me feel dizzy
haha [:)] I'm glad to hear that some of my frustration is understandable.
Aaron Hamilton said:Kristin, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to accomplish, but I assure you there's a better way.
I hope so!
Mark Allison said:In Logos, can't you right-click on the word, select the lexical form in the popup, and then copy the word?
Hi Mark,
I think so, but looking at my Jn 1 example above, I think a lot of the fundamental issue is that the "search" window isn't selectable, but requires to go back to the "bible" in a sort of zig-zag for something to be copyable.
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Kristin said:
1. right click λόγος
2. search for the lex
3. discover that the first instance is in Mt 5:32 and copy λόγου.I don't understand why you couldn't follow the exact same process in Logos.
1) Right click the word
2) Search the Lexicon (Make sure lemma is selected. Again, Logos will remember this selection for next time unless you change it. Find your desired lexicon under "look up" - see Mark's screenshot)
3) Discover the first instance from the information contained in the lexicon and copy the word
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Kristin said:
requires to go back to the "bible" in a sort of zig-zag for something to be copyable.
Can't you just select "Text" to the right of copy reference? (Again, see Mark's screenshot)
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Mark Allison said:
In Logos, can't you right-click on the word, select the lexical form in the popup, and then copy the word?
For example, if I see "ἀφῆκεν" in the text, I can right-click on it and select the lexical form (ἀφίημι).You can also search inline from the lemma menu to create a report in Logos similar to Accordance. (Otherwise it will open up the morphological search tab.)
See below the two reports - one from Logos, one from Accordance. 330 results in 317 verses.
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Clicking on the lemma in Mark's screenshot is taking Kristin to a search pane. Click Inline instead (next option to the right of the lemma marked in blue) and it'll keep you right in the text.
Mark Allison said:0 -
Jonathan Huber said:
Clicking on the lemma in Mark's screenshot is taking Kristin to a search pane.
When I say make sure the lemma is selected, I mean make sure that lemma is selected on the left hand side of the context menu.
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Jonathan Huber said:
Clicking on the lemma in Mark's screenshot is taking Kristin to a search pane. Click Inline instead (next option to the right of the lemma marked in blue) and it'll keep you right in the text.
If I press the lex thing like Mark's screenshot, it brings me to that "search" window. If, by contrast, I click "Inline" it does open the Bible, but it brings me to Jn 1. The only way I seem to be able to see results prior to Jn 1 is to open that search window where I can't copy.
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Jonathan Huber said:
Clicking on the lemma in Mark's screenshot is taking Kristin to a search pane. Click Inline instead (next option to the right of the lemma marked in blue) and it'll keep you right in the text.
If I press the lex thing like Mark's screenshot, it brings me to that "search" window. If, by contrast, I click "Inline" it does open the Bible, but it brings me to Jn 1. The only way I seem to be able to see results prior to Jn 1 is to open that search window where I can't copy.
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Hi Kristin
Kristin said:This is just a hypothetical example, but let's say I am in John 1:1 and I notice the word λόγος. I then want to copy the inflected form of the first instance in the entire NT.
So in Accordance I can:
1. right click λόγος
2. search for the lex
3. discover that the first instance is in Mt 5:32 and copy λόγου.So in Accordance that is a 3 step process, but to do the same thing in Logos appears to be an 8 step process.
You could right-click the word, ensure the lemma is selected on the left and run an Inline Search
Then scroll up in the filtered results to the first one and right-click the first result
Ensure selection is selected on the left (to get the inflected form of the word) and click copy on the right
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Graham Criddle said:
You could right-click the word, ensure the lemma is selected on the left and run an Inline Search
Cool, an inline search is exactly what I wanted! Thanks Graham and Jonathan.
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In Windows, Ctrl + Home will launch you to the first result.Graham Criddle said:Then scroll up in the filtered results to the first one and right-click the first result
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