a question from an Accordance User

Smiling, but I'm not so sure about that (L vs A as just different approaches). Though, I don't know enough about Windows vs Mac to know systems-wise.

But Logos vs Accordance, I do know that the day Logos arrived in my mailbox, was the day I was in business (feeding my hungry linguistic neural nets). That was almost 20 years ago, and 20 years later, Accordance still won't do what I needed to do then.

Now, I'm absolutely sure (judging from this thread) that there's things Logos literally can't do, and Accordance can, which some users absolutely need to do. I also don't see either platform 'budging', primarily due to legacy development vs market size. And indeed, when one of them keels over, it's doubtful the other will add needed features missing. WYSIWYG.

(Ironically, mathematical neural nets are modern day versions of ancient Mot … ravenous, casting to and fro for whom they can devour!)

It's been years since Accordance released a major update, and even then there are promised features missing that have never been added. Since the release of version 14, they've let all their full-time programmers go (and much of their staff, including most of their content developers). Accordance mentioned on their forums that they're looking for web developers, which would indicate that they're going to be focusing on a web version (since the Accordance code base is written in Objective Pascal). That's probably not a bad idea, but creating a web version that has complete feature parity with the desktop app takes years. Logos's web app is amazing, and far ahead of any other Bible software platform, but even with the team of developers that Logos has, their web version doesn't have complete feature parity with the desktop.

So don't expect to see any new advanced features in Accordance anytime soon (if ever). On the other hand, Logos can do everything I need Bible software to do (and much more). They're constantly adding new features and new resources, and I can use Logos on every device I own. I don't have the time to waste keeping up with two Bible software platforms, so I'm all-in with Logos.

I would love for Logos to have a deal for ex accordance users. i.e pay x amount of money and have the same resources in Logos that you have in Accordance

Hi @Mark Allison,

I am pretty sure most of what I do in Accordance can be replicated in one way or another in Logos (even if a little clunkier). However, the one exception which is what really forces me to use Accordance is the fact that I can have as many Workspaces open in Accordance as I want (I have had over 30 open before without it crashing), and each of these workspaces average 15-20 tabs. So Logos allowing only one Layout open at a time is truly not workable. Even with the floating windows, the floating window is always linked to the primary layout, but with my Workspaces (the Logos Layout equiv), the whole point is that the Workspaces are all addressing different projects which are not connected to each other.

As a simplistic, but realistic, example, in Accordance I often have my personal study workspace and my class workspace (which I use for teaching) open at the same time. These two Workspaces are fundamentally needed to be kept separate, but I sometimes refer to my personal workspace during a class.

You mentioned that Logos is, "constantly adding new features and new resources," if they finally let people have multiple layouts open (which I have learned from the forums is a long time want of Logos users), would this be a fundamental change that effects everyone, or would it be a "feature"? I am concerned since they moved to that subscription model, which I am flatout not able to do. I understand you don't work for Logos, but your comment just made me think of this.

This would be a wonderful improvement that could potentially affect everyone. You brought up a good point. How would you add a fundamental change without affecting all users, both subscribers and non-subscribers? I suppose they could add it as an option to be turned on and make it subscriber only. If they did that, I would think it should qualify as part of the fallback license for sure. Ideally, it would be a simple enhancement available for everyone. Good things to think about and I definitely hope to see this feature one way or another in the near future. Just my two cents :-)

@Kristin I know nothing about Logos's plans for future development, but I believe that having as much feature parity as possible across devices is important to them. If that's indeed the case, then multiple workspaces in the sense that you're describing isn't something that would translate well to mobile devices. Because of that, I'd assume that it's a very low priority for them.

Hi @Mark Allison ,

I hope you aren't right, but I think what you said makes sense. :( That would basically make Logos close to unusable for people with complex workflows. :( I really hope Accordance remains functional for the rest of my career (and life for that matter).

On the other hand, while what you said makes sense, I really hope that someone at Logos can think outside of the box and realize that there is A LOT which is sacrificed when something is restricted to be used on mobile. I know some Logos users have sort of "made it work" by having the app open as one layout, and then the web version open as a second layout which really shows it is a need users perceive. If the Logos app itself was truly functional, people wouldn't need to resort to such internet dependent workarounds.

I guess here's to hoping Accordance remains up and running.

Hi @Mark Allison . I definitely can see why Logos may want to have feature parity on all devices. However, all devices are not equally capable or usable in the same way. If they were consistent with that philosophy, the our features wolud be limited by the abilities of the least capable device. The fact that a feature doesn;t work on a 7" screen should not limit the abilities of the software. If the desktop and web have the ability to do what the cellphone can't do, it's still a win. I want the software to get better, not dumber. There are power users who have needs as well as textual scholars. If you are going to market to both ends of the spectrum then you have to provide needed features for both. Otherwise, they would just dump Logos Max as an option. Just another perspective :-)

It is not likely that the contracts they have with the copyrighter holders would allow this.

I guess here's to hoping Accordance remains up and running.

I have concluded that Accordance will only survive with bold, decisive action (new owner/CEO) and a clear turnaround plan. Otherwise, their days are numbered. The opportunity for small incremental improvements is gone.

Logos buying out Accordance is now a fire sale. The value of the business will not be what it was several years ago, even just in terms of the reputational damage it has suffered from several years of mismanagement and falling further behind in technological developments.

If Logos designs a migration deal, it will depend on the value of adding another user to their business, and their acquisition cost will justify any discount they offer. The issue is that this transition is already occurring, and as time progresses, there will be fewer and fewer reasons for them to pursue this from a business standpoint when users, in many cases, will likely wind up here anyhow. (I am not saying this because Logos is superior, but rather, where else is the competition?)

Perhaps I am mistaken, and this is too large of a mouthful of a fictitious reality sandwich, but I have ceased spending money on Accordance because of what I observed happened with QuickVerse. If I am incorrect, I can resume my investment, but I see more risk than potential benefit at this stage.

It is a sad state of affairs.

YMMV 😕

Right. Logos could offer a large discount, but the discount would come from Logos's end, not the publishers. And what does Logos have to gain by doing that? If users are leaving Accordance (and they are), they're going to come to Logos anyway. And Logos certainly doesn't have any desire to buy a bunch of code written in Objective Pascal.

@Steven MacDonald I think Logos can have the best of both worlds, but they're not going to copy Accordance features. They'll probably rethink some Accordance features to see if they can make Accordance users feel a little more comfortable. Accordance did the same thing for BibleWorks users. So, for example, I don't see Logos redesigning the app to allow for 30 workspaces at a time, but they could allow for tabbed layouts that can easily be cycled through. And tabs work on mobile devices.

@Mark Allison I definitely agree and those attempts would be welcomed. There is definitely more than one way to implement something.

The situation is far from ideal and, as an IT guy, I will continue to protect my investments. I still have BibleWorks running on a virtual machine and will do the same with Accordance just in case. If the software breaks at a certain point, I can always roll the software back to a point where it still worked and freeze it. The loss only occurs if it stops working and intend to keep them running as long as the technology allows :-)

I admit, I do not have much experience with the multiple workspaces features of Accordance. Does the use of "Saved Layouts" not allow similar function (Sometimes quite "clunky" depending on the "depth/intensity" of the Saved Layout), as I cycle through Saved Layouts fairly simply (though as mentioned, sometimes slow or clunky)

It would be nice to have the ability to allow separate layouts on multiple screens

It would be a good start if you could easily tab through your saved layouts, and if they would automatically save changes. To the best of my knowledge, you can't do either.

It's two clicks to switch between Saved Layouts and two clicks to update the current layout, if for example you make a change to a Saved Layout

Edit (I am on the Classic Toolbar Setup, I am not sure if these actions have changed with the toolbar changes)

Almost forgot - CTRL - ALT - L will save/update the current Layout as well, without need for clicks

@Mark Allison

I think Logos can have the best of both worlds, but they're not going to copy Accordance features. They'll probably rethink some Accordance features to see if they can make Accordance users feel a little more comfortable.

Regarding multiple workspaces, perhaps a win/win would be to implement it in a fashion similar to what Arc Browser does. I have a personal workspace, a work workspace and a biblical studies workspace.

https://resources.arc.net/hc/en-us/articles/19228064149143-Spaces-Distinct-Browsing-Areas

This keeps the UI simple for those wanting a static workspace experience but allows power users to load multiple layouts simultaneously.

I will be cheeky and tag @Mark Barnes (Logos) and @Bradley Grainger (Logos) in this thread. It costs nothing to suggest…

I hope Logos will allow one to do more regex (regular expression type searches), for example, searching on vowel points and patterns irrespective of the consonants in Hebrew text. The 'Search Matching Commands' currently does not allow for this. Also, regex would allow for searching on combinations of accents and vowels which Logos also is currently not able to do.

I understand this isn't a feature that is going to get the majority of people to pull out their walets and pocket books.

What would be really cool is if Logos could us AI to allow natural language searches. "Find every qamets chatuph in the Pentateuch."

If they did that I would be a lot more tempted to join a Logos subscription plan, however, I would also like to be able to run the same type regular expression searches manually as well.

Hi @Frank Sauer,

The advantage of the multiple workspaces is that I can have them all open at the same time. So I can have one workspace with 20 tabs on the right side of my screen, and another workspace open with 20 tabs on the left side of my screen, and another workspace with 20 tabs open on the right side of my second monitor, and another open with 20 tabs open on the left side of my second monitor, and another workspace with 20 tabs minimized. All the workspaces are all named of course, but each tab has also been named by me, keeping it ultra organized and I can view everything at once. Then I have Skype or Zoom open over it and I can move that window off to the side so it is not covering anything, and I can view everything at once.

In reality I have far more open, but having the ability to have four open and viewable at the same time is the bare minimum. With the Logos layout, I can only see one at a time, and as the video meeting progresses, I can only see part of the information at once, or be constantly opening and closing layouts as the meeting continues, and neither of those options are functional.

+1 - I have been interested in what AI can do in searches, as well as helping us make connections in the 'Text Comparison Tool' 👍️

That would be a nice addition for a multi monitor setup

Since you never open Accordance any longer - do they offer the "Account Transfer" that Logos does? You may be able to sell it and have a nice Logos expansion budget from the proceeds…

I think that since it was given to me when I left Accordance and I didn't actually purchase it, that it wouldn't transfer since none of the publishers received any royalties from it. Would be nice though :-)

I would even be willing to sign something saying I won't use them in Accordance anymore.

Well, there are lots of factors that would make this very difficult to do. I've worked at both companies, and I can't speak for what Accordance does now, but I am am familiar with what we did when I was there. I know in the past, Accordance used to offer a 30% discount on Collections (their version of what Logos calls Base Packages) for new users coming over from competing platforms. This is easily comparable to our recent introductory pricing on Logos 2025 Base Packages. And, of course, last October, we had an incredible 50% off Logos 10 Base Packages in the "Last Chance" sale.

Accordance used to try to offer "crossgrade" deals, which amounted to discounts on titles or series you might have in competing software. However, it was never widespread because it required the participation of publishers to either wave royalties or offer reduced royalties, and most publishers declined to participate. I believe the old Accordance webpage that kept track of the crossgrade deals on individual titles and series was taken down long ago.

The idea of having discounts on every individual title and series you own in one platform to purchase in the competing platform would get complicated very quickly because a user's library is dynamic, not static. Figuring discounts on hundreds, if not thousands, of titles for each potential new user would be an administrative challenge on the part of our sales team. That is, it would take considerable time, with not a lot of return. Accordance created targeted deals for BibleWorks users (after BW announced they were closing) only because BibleWorks was mostly a fixed package of titles, and it was easier to create a fixed Collection of approximate content.

And, of course, Logos was able to transfer libraries of WordSearch users because they bought the company—which was a healthy platform with lots of users and a good investment for Logos.

I know all of this can be frustrating as we've seen some of these platforms fold over the years (BibleWorks, Quickverse, etc.), this often results in needing to purchase titles again. If misery loves company, I've done it myself. I've been on all these platforms over the years. I have some titles that have been duplicated in Logos, Accordance, BibleWorks, Wordsearch, OliveTree, Kindle, and even print. But my decisions were made because because ultimately, I needed what I needed when I needed it. Even working for Accordance for many years, I still took advantage of Logos sales—both individual titles and base packages, even duplicating a lot of content. Because of the incredibly large catalog available from Logos, years ago, when I still worked for the other guys, I had a personal Logos library larger than everything offered in the entire Accordance catalog. And in hindsight, I'm very glad I did this.

All that to say, I know switching platforms can be both difficult and expensive, but if you're considering switching to Logos (and I hope you will!) I would recommend starting with a Base Package, especially when it is discounted. For the resources not in that package, make a priority list of those titles or series, add them to your wishlist on our site, and keep an eye out for our sales, which often have very generous discounts. These sales change monthly (and we even have daily deals).

The good news is I've been very impressed with the health and vision of Logos since I've been working for the company. I'm no longer buying anything on a competing Bible software platform, and my assumption is Logos is going to be around long after I'm gone from this earth.

My memory is not good at all. But when I 'came over' from Bibleworks to Accordance, the discount seemed quite significant (enough for me to effectively duplicate Logos resources in Accordance). Of course, BW pricing was rock-bottom.

But I agree, absent FL buying Accordance (unlikely), the move to Logos can be pricey.

Hi @Rick Mansfield (Logos) ,

Thanks for clarifying how the crossover worked at Accordance, I didn't realize that. When BW died, I actually did contact Logos first, letting them know the situation, and to be honest, the person I spoke with sort of blew me off and didn't even attempt to try to convince me why I should duplicate things in Logos. I then called Accordance and was informed of their crossgrade program. Like @DMB , I also remember it as being a significant discount. In fact I know it was. On a side note, I would like to mention that this time when I contacted sales, the guy I spoke to was very friendly and professional, and worked with me to access all the discounts I could personally qualify for. So this gave me the impression that Logos must have changed since the last time I contacted them, and further, I think it really speaks to how when a company offers a discount, it may be expensive on the outset, but it is often well worth it not only in building customers, but promoting customer loyalty.

I’m sad the Christmas discount is a single use code. Hoping for a new year discount code soon.

Right. The Accordance discount for BibleWorks users was steep because it was easy to create a couple comparable packages. BibleWorks famously didn't offer things like commentaries or monographs, so it was very easy to work with publishers to come up with something very inexpensive that was the equivalent of a BibleWorks library.

As @Rick Mansfield (Logos) has pointed out, Logos probably won't be able to do the same thing for Accordance users because it would be a nightmare trying to figure out the myriads of possible discount combinations.

BTW, I'm using floating windows in Logos now, and with them I can do everything I used to do with Accordance workspaces (your mileage may vary).

Hi @Mark Allison,

Thanks for letting me know. Right now I am working really hard to finalize exporting my Accordance notes (I hope to be finished in Feb, I hope…). Then after that I am really going to try to force Logos to work to see if it is possible. I might contact you about floating window questions, if that is ok, as Logos' inability to have multiple layouts open at a time is really the number one reason why I am not sure if the program will be functional (despite the awesome library it has).

One thing I am kind of fuzzy about though, actually two things:

1) How many floating windows can be open at once with one layout?

2) If I save that layout, and then close the program and reopen it, will it reopen the layout WITH all the floating windows open?

1. I was able to open 20 floating windows, but I assume I could open more.
2. When I quit and restarted Logos, they were all still open in the positions I had left them. Note: In my Logos preferences I set "At Startup Open to" to " Most recent layout-any".
   
   I only have one monitor, so I wasn't able to test whether they opened in the same position on another monitor.

Hi @Mark Allison ,

That is great to hear!! if I can open 20 floating windows, that sounds very workable, especially if they remain open after closing the windows. Thank you for clarifying this! I understand the floating windows are more limited than a legitimate layout, but this is nonetheless optimistic. Thanks again, and I will for sure start with messing with floating windows as soon as this massive export is done.

In addition to lots of windows, lots of books can be open, with great performance. I generally keep 150-170 books open all the time, in 6 windows.

Hi @DMB,

Just to clarify, you are meaning that you have six floating windows open, and the 150-170 books open are distributed among these floating windows. Is this correct? Are you able to minimize a floating window?

ps - if I try to tag you, there are multiple potential profiles with the same pic, so hopefully I am tagging you correctly.

Yes, you can minimize a floating window.

@kristin, adding to Mark, I normally keep the windows open, with the main window a little larger so I can quickly get to tools etc just clicking on the main window (on the Mac I use the hot corners).

I also make heavy use of MultiBook panels, where Logos automatically inserts needed volumes (eg keeping my Targums organized).

ps Yes, there's lots of me. I'm not sure which is me! But I watch recent posts.

Y’all talking about having 150 books open, and I suddenly now have the motivation to clean up my home office / bedroom! Thank you!

150 books open! Ah! I must destress and clean!

1. I have seven floating windows open, two the complex windows with multiple panes and many tabs, of which I've posted screen shots, and five really simple ones. All close when I close the main window of Logos (of course), and all open when I open my main layout. All windows open as I left them, except any windows that I had snapped to the left side or right side of the screen, using that feature of Windows, show up in their unsnapped size and location. So when I close and reopen Logos it takes a few seconds for me to snap the thus-unsnapped windows back to the side where I want them. I could manually resize them without using Windows' snapping feature (whatever it's called), but I haven't bothered.
   
2. DMB has me beat, but I've got fifty-five tabs, most of which are books, opened across six panes in three windows - not counting five more books each open in its own window. It all takes a bit to open up, but I open Logos only when I've had reason to close it - letting an update install, and restarting Windows are about it. Logos has frozen or crashed on me twice that I recall in the thirteen months since I first started using it.

Hi @Thomas Glen Leo ,

Thank you for clarifying this, and also for your prior screenshots. I briefly mentioned it above, but I am intensely working on a note export (which Accordance users know I have been literally working on for years), but I have reason to think I am nearing the end. After that, I am going to spend a week attempting to work exclusively in Logos and just see if it is possible. After understanding the floating windows a little better now, I feel pretty encouraged about it.

Kristin,

One other note: even with all those books, and tabs, open, actually using Logos - moving around all the windows and tabs, as I do when I'm reading or studying and looking in various tabs for comparisons, study Bibles, commentaries, etc., or reading a book, clicking on cross-references that open or switch to my preferred Bible or some other cited resource, searching, etc., Logos is pretty much instantaneous, except for the well-known bits - e.g., the creation of AI synopses, that I do understand involve background processes.

Logos does keep track of multiple monitors.

The only thing that I think layouts with floating windows is missing is modularity (like updating a personal layout that is sometimes owned with a teaching layout and sometimes with a writing layout). But if you just have one master workspace you always use, it is fine.

Logos is fast enough on my computer that I would never do that, I would just update the teaching layout, switch to what I want to show, and then switch back to the teaching layout. But obviously everybody has their own flow.

No need to destress too soon. Don't forget text comparisons … across centuries, ordered by date, and then 5 TCs by language. Multiviews for commentaries ordered by usefulness, main and supplementary, as well as Targums. It 'sounds' like a lot but sits nice and neat until needed. Peaceful-like.

Thank you all for sharing how you use floating windows. I knew floating windows were a thing, but had rarely made use of them. Meanwhile, I kept struggling to find a smooth way to transition from my devotions layout to my classroom layout to my lesson prep layout each morning. Opening and closing layouts takes only seconds, but after opening my classroom layout, I would hesitate to return to my devotions layout to record a thought, or to take a few minutes to glance over my lesson prep layout before the day, because those extra few seconds are valuable in the morning. After reading of how you all use floating windows, I created a new layout that has each of my constantly-used layouts in floating windows…I can simply move between them at will. So very cool. 😊

Thanks for the extensive response. I would agree with your last comment about Logos and that is why I plan to buy a package soon or go the subscription route

Seems like a fantastic time for FL to set up an e-mail with a link to one of those 'tutorial' pages with pictures, animations and small videos. All about 'floating windows' and layouts. Would appreciate all the insights here distilled by Logos experts on one page.