Official: More details about the coming subscription launch
Comments
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I imagine many users may be quite disappointed if they canceled in September after earning the Fallback license, only to find out that if they had held on one more month, they would have been given a more recent license.
I guess, since it's so complicated, Customer Service couldn't help the subscriber avoid disaster?
Then, there's the unfortunate November subscribers.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I appreciate the clarification on this - though I do wonder how it would not be possible to allow for "personal" licensure - that has been the standard back since the Libronix days buying modules and through L10 buying feature sets.... Every person had their own license starting on the date they purchased whatever module or set they chose....
What has changed in the Licensure system that would prevent the same?
We still operate a very similar license system. The problem is that we have three subscription tiers. Double it because of Verbum. Then multiply that by seven because that's how many languages we support. Maybe there are more subscription tiers in the future. Maybe some seminaries get custom subscription configurations for their students.
In other words, it's likely that there will already be 50 different legacy fallback license combinations we'd need to create just to support what I've described. If we personalized it for every user depending on their subscription length you could probably 10x that figure. Maybe more. And as a result, we couldn't do that manually, we'd have to automate it. That's the capability we don't have. And getting it would be a significant investment that would take time away from building and improving Bible study features.
Again, I appreciate the reply - though I still wonder even after the explanation why it would be limited.... After all, Logos, Verbum, multiple languages, perpetual license purchase, subscriptions and IIRC tailored seminary/Bible College Academic plans have been part of the process...
I'll take your word on it, it just seems odd due to the complexity of purchases and subscriptions that have been active in the Logos Universe - each licensed by individual account whether purchase, subscription or both.
As a customer looking at this change it seems like a step back for account management.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Bottom line question?
If I don’t subscribe, will my program become useless even after spending already significant $$ on Logos?
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Bottom line question?
If I don’t subscribe, will my program become useless even after spending already almost 20k on Logos?
Short answer is No. You'll still be able to do everything you've always done.
But my question is, why would you be worried about spending $10/month for cool new features when you've already spent $20,000?
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I imagine many users may be quite disappointed if they canceled in September after earning the Fallback license, only to find out that if they had held on one more month, they would have been given a more recent license.
I guess, since it's so complicated, Customer Service couldn't help the subscriber avoid disaster?
Then, there's the unfortunate November subscribers.
You would hope that CS could help - though that means that they would have to be trained on the options and solutions - given that some of these options and solutions seem to still be confused at this point in the process - I feel for CS that has to deal with the launch....
There is still so much that hasn't been answered with the Last Chance Sale concluding in a week and customers still waiting for answers on what features are Fallback eligible and which are not to decide whether the L10 FFS is the best option or just subscribing and earning Features in 2 years.... There are benefits the the L10 FFS that have features that are grandfathered in because they were purchased that by the vague information we have been given, may not be earned with the Fallback License.....
Add the unanswered question of why users can't have a choice between the new Dynamic Toolbar and the Traditional toolbar, when we have been told both will be maintained since only subscribers get the Dynamic, so the traditional is still in the code.....
Now we have this chaotic October license plan.... So how does that work for the April Subscriber??? They pay for a subscription that has access to a "new feature" that comes out in November 2026 and do not retain access though they are paying for 6 months of it.... Seems a little unfair IMHO, since someone who subscribes in October doesn't lose a feature that comes out in April of 2026 based on the vague info with have been given.... I know the point is made that the "late" subscribers receive everything from October 2024, but based on Mark's spreadsheet and the lack of answers to what if Fallback eligible, there is not a lot of Features beyond what we have in the L10 FFS that aren't AI/Cloud related - so what is gained for that late subscriber from Oct 24? That needs to be clarified and should have been by now with the Last Chance Sale ending....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I imagine many users may be quite disappointed if they canceled in September after earning the Fallback license, only to find out that if they had held on one more month, they would have been given a more recent license.
Happened to me Aaron, only with a car! I was quite miffed but I got little sympathy.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Bottom line question?
If I don’t subscribe, will my program become useless even after spending already almost 20k on Logos?
Short answer is No. You'll still be able to do everything you've always done.
But my question is, why would you be worried about spending $10/month for cool new features when you've already spent $20,000?
Can't speak for Danny, but my answer to this is that previously I purchased - now they want me to rent and possibly earn a purchase of unknown features that are currently out and the "TBD" future features that may or may not be Fallback Eligible....In some ways, it seems that Logos is asking its users to be another form of PE investor group - invest this subscription amount into our company and we will do our best to provide a "profit" (profit for the user being unknown future features they said user may or may not use, like or get value for) but we do not guarantee "profit" on your investment....
Maybe they should add that to the promotional material - Logos does not guarantee any ROI on your investment in our company....
Some of us like to know what we are purchasing, rather than trust a company known for promises that have not always panned out.... The Forums are full of "we're working on it" type posts that have many years of inquiry and waiting for delivery - some are the Commentary Set that has been in the works for over ten years that customers are getting frustrated, Prepubs in the works for years, Forum software updates, polishing of some features....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Some of us like to know what we are purchasing, rather than trust a company known for promises that have not always panned out....
Good thing you're not an Accordance user. Two years later and they're still working on features that were advertised as part of version 14 when it was released for sale! By now, they should be releasing version 15, but that will probably never happen. Ever.
The fact that Logos is moving to a subscription model means that Logos users won't face the same fate as Accordance users (or, even worse, BibleWorks users).
And Logos isn't forcing anyone to subscribe to anything. Keep what you have and enjoy it for the rest of your career.0 -
Some of us like to know what we are purchasing, rather than trust a company known for promises that have not always panned out....
Good thing you're not an Accordance user. Two years later and they're still working on features that were advertised as part of version 14 when it was released for sale! By now, they should be releasing version 15, but that will probably never happen. Ever.
The fact that Logos is moving to a subscription model means that Logos users won't face the same fate as Accordance users (or, even worse, BibleWorks users).
And Logos isn't forcing anyone to subscribe to anything. Keep what you have and enjoy it for the rest of your career.First of all - the subscription model is NOT a guarantee of anything.... It may improve Logo's bottom line, it may not - so definitive statements that the subscription model will prevent anything is nothing more than rose colored speculation.... Subscription fatigue is real and is easier to get rid of than a full purchase. For the sake of the company and its users, I hope the revenue continues to flow in, but to turn away the revenue of users that have no interest in subscriptions seems silly.... Everyone likes to point to companies like Microsoft and Adobe but ignore that they offer both perpetual and subscription options - because they want as many customers as possible.... (Never underestimate the negative impact of a company not respecting customer loyalty)
As for Logos forcing someone to subscribe.... Not sure where I said that in my statement, but I will entertain that...
While on the surface a true statement - in the full view it is a misleading statement, as it comes with the condition that you are indeed stuck with the features you currently have - so it is a partially truthful statement... Making that statement also comes with the small print that you are indeed forced to subscribe to ever have the possibility of a new feature.... But now..... You may or may not even now what said feature is.....
Also in relation to your Accordance users waiting for promised features, maybe you missed what I stated about that with Logos through the years.... That has been a negative with Logos since Logos 4 arrived at different times with different promises....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Not that is any of your business, but I had a “cool” program for CRM before and invested significantly amount of money also, and they became a subscription company. Bottom line, lost any ability to use the program further and hence money spent. Not to mention all my effort and data I needed to migrate.
Seems a bit presumptuous of you for asking about worrying for “cool” features at $10. Every dollar is to be used wisely, even if it for “cool” features, no matter how much I have spent.
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Not that is any of your business, but I had a “cool” program for CRM before and invested significantly amount of money also, and they became a subscription company. Bottom line, lost any ability to use the program further and hence money spent. Not to mention all my effort and data I needed to migrate.
Seems a bit presumptuous of you for asking about worrying for “cool” features at $10. Every dollar is to be used wisely, even if it for “cool” features, no matter how much I have spent.
And.... What some users see as "cool", some see as a wasted investment.... Other users have made statement of being disappointed with past Feature Set releases.... That was the benefit of purchasing, not subscribing - a user was able to decide if the next release was worth the investment - now the company wants blind investment in unknown features.... Which highlights your using our dollars wisely.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Correct
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Bottom line, lost any ability to use the program further and hence money spent.
I'm sorry you had a negative experience with this CRM program. But we're talking apples and oranges here, because if you choose not to subscribe to Logos, you won't lose anything you've already purchased, and your software will continue to run on new machines going forward.
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And.... What some users see as "cool", some see as a wasted investment....
Then don't subscribe until you see Logos releasing a compelling feature. If they don't, you haven't lost anything.
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And.... What some users see as "cool", some see as a wasted investment....
Then don't subscribe until you see Logos releasing a compelling feature. If they don't, you haven't lost anything.
And if a user does see a "compelling" feature that they are interested in - they are indeed forced to subscribe since they are no longer able to purchase - and even then users still have to wonder what is and is not eligible for ownership if they were willing to subscribe for two years to own it...(Not to mention the new wrinkle that Mark mentioned with licenses being tied to October, even for people subscribing months later - so they could be forced for another year? or another two years for a new feature that falls in their paid subscription???)
You can also subscribe and enjoy all you like - it could be the best for you - that does not mean it is for everyone!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is "negative" to some like yourself.... You don't like it - scroll on by - the same way many do with yours and other Accordance users negative comments about that company on LOGOS User Forums....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is "negative" to some like yourself.... You don't like it - scroll on by
Sorry, I assumed the Logos forums were meant to be interactive.
I just find it confusing why someone would have no problem paying hundreds of $$ for an upgrade every two years, but completely rebels at the thought of paying $12/month for those same features—features that they'll be able to use during that two-year period and own at the end of it!0 -
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is "negative" to some like yourself.... You don't like it - scroll on by
Sorry, I assumed the Logos forums were meant to be interactive.
I just find it confusing why someone would have no problem paying hundreds of $$ for an upgrade every two years, but completely rebels at the thought of paying $12/month for those same features—features that they'll be able to use during that two-year period and own at the end of it!Again,
You are missing the point - some prefer to know what they are purchasing and are owning, not renting....
You mention the $10 - $12 dollars per month in comparison to the hundreds for the upgrades previously - with the upgrade we knew what we had and owned them - with the subscription we don't know and may or may not own features.... Also, the cost you mention is for L10 FFS owners - it can be much higher for others or for those who wait for a "compelling" feature they would use....
Your statement here could be misleading to some, who may not understand the new system yet - your "own at the end of it" statement is not settled nor confirmed by Logos yet - we do NOT know what can be owned of the current features and even they, per their own admission doesn't know what is coming, so they cannot know what we can own over the next two years....
Also in relation to the "two years" we keep hearing about - is it just me or does the fact that it equates to four years before ownership is not obvious..... How long has it been since L10, now we can't own until Oct 2026.... October 2022 to October 2026 is four years last I checked... So while we may have access to "new" features we can't own them (if they are even qualified for ownership) until 4 fours after the previous L10 release....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Your statement here could be misleading to some, who may not understand the new system yet - your "own at the end of it" statement is not settled nor confirmed by Logos yet
The "Legacy Fallback Licensing" has been confirmed by Logos: https://www.logos.com/early-access#faq
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Your statement here could be misleading to some, who may not understand the new system yet - your "own at the end of it" statement is not settled nor confirmed by Logos yet
The "Legacy Fallback Licensing" has been confirmed by Logos: https://www.logos.com/early-access#faq
Never said it wasn't - what I DID say was that what is included or not included is unknown, not settled nor confirmed! You were stating that you get to use the new features during your subscription and own them at the end - which is misleading - it will be "some" features - which is what was confirmed by Logos - what features in fact, is still unknown!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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it will be "some" features - which is what was confirmed by Logos - what features in fact, is still unknown!
Wait, you're expecting Logos to give you a detailed list of every feature that they'll be adding to the app in the next two years?
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Frank,
I believe you will ultimately be neutral or ahead with a subscription model.
- No need to pay monthly, I personally pay annually to grab a better discount. Factoring inflation, this cost x2 is close enough to the traditional license upgrade every 2 years
- I'm looking forward to the 5% discount on all books. Should be an advantage for most people.
- As been mentioned, the main advantage is the incremental improvements being released monthly and not waiting for 2 years. This is better than having no benefits for two years and then having some magical release.
For now, Pro probably makes the most sense for most L10 owners but I chose Max to play with a new Commentary and the hope of playing and locking in new features that may be added.
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it will be "some" features - which is what was confirmed by Logos - what features in fact, is still unknown!
Wait, you're expecting Logos to give you a detailed list of every feature that they'll be adding to the app in the next two years?
Never said that either..... Pointing out the difference between the traditional upgrade and the subscription model that you could not understand why someone would have an issue with - we currently do NOT know what we would own - the old way we knew.... It really is that simple of a view and having that view is not having a problem with Logos not knowing what features will be functional in October 2025 or October 2026 - it IS pointing out the differences in purchase models that you were comparing.
Now I do expect Logos to have already clarified what features that are currently available, will be Fallback License eligible.... Especially with the Last Chance Sale ending in a week.... That information would be useful to those debating the upgrade prior to subscribing or not subscribing decision to be made - withholding that information until release when you are ending the opportunity to purchase can be hindering informed purchase decisions for customers.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Now I do expect Logos to have already clarified what features that are currently available, will be Fallback License eligible....
My understanding is that only subscription-based features will be included in the Fallback License. Thought I heard that stated in a webinar, but I could be wrong.
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withholding that information until release when you are ending the opportunity to purchase can be hindering informed purchase decisions for customers.
I don't think anything is being intentionally withheld. I think there's just a lot of work to do. I heard from a usually-reliable source that the last chance sale was going to be extended through the end of September for reasons like this and pricing uncertainties. They have been quite generous with users every step of the way, so I think it likely they will avoid the situation of providing clarity immediately after their "last chance" sale has ended.
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I believe you will ultimately be neutral or ahead with a subscription model.
That could be - but it is a wait and see game. Which is not what we are used to as long time customers, we are used to knowing what we are purchasing.
- No need to pay monthly, I personally pay annually to grab a better discount. Factoring inflation, this cost x2 is close enough to the traditional license upgrade every 2 years
I agree that the Annual option for those willing to subscribe is the best deal, however the comparison to the traditional cost is still an unknown - we do not know what we are getting for that cost, as previously we owned our purchases - now we will own "some" features and not others... With the emphasis on AI and Cloud based options, how much will be invested in offline Fallback eligible features? Again, unknown - so you could theoretically pay the same as a traditional upgrade for instant dark mode.... We don't know yet...
- As been mentioned, the main advantage is the incremental improvements being released monthly and not waiting for 2 years. This is better than having no benefits for two years and then having some magical release.
Possibly... Though as I stated, it has already been two years, so this may be the case going forward - but not for the release. Also, with the "magical" release, again, at least we knew what we were paying for.... This incremental setup seems to be an paid Beta testing program.... You get to try all the new features with their bugs as they are released... As someone who beta tested since L4 on and off - some of the bugs I am seeing long time users reference in "Stable" releases are Beta-esque....
- I'm looking forward to the 5% discount on all books. Should be an advantage for most people.
Agreed
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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at least we knew what we were paying for....
Again, if it bothers you not to know in advance which features will be added, then don't pay for the subscription until features are added that you'll find useful.
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Now I do expect Logos to have already clarified what features that are currently available, will be Fallback License eligible....
My understanding is that only subscription-based features will be included in the Fallback License. Thought I heard that stated in a webinar, but I could be wrong.
That is the point - we currently do not know.... I didn't see the webinar, but from the comments that have been posted - it seems that only non AI/ non Cloud based would be included.... Of current features, is that anything beyond instant dark mode? Maybe the new toolbar and Factbook improvements? This is the area that needs clarity, because there's a good possibility that some features may use those technologies that may not appear to... Or vice versa...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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withholding that information until release when you are ending the opportunity to purchase can be hindering informed purchase decisions for customers.
I don't think anything is being intentionally withheld. I think there's just a lot of work to do. I heard from a usually-reliable source that the last chance sale was going to be extended through the end of September for reasons like this and pricing uncertainties. They have been quite generous with users every step of the way, so I think it likely they will avoid the situation of providing clarity immediately after their "last chance" sale has ended.
I would hope that your source is right - extending the Last Chance, even a week into the launch would be a smart move to allow educated and informed decision making, as well as time for Logos to complete the details that are currently missing from a major change of strategy.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Frank,
All valid concerns, but at least for the next several months you some flexibility. I don't think the price of 1 year represents much risk, but month to month, or simply waiting until the end of the year are all viable options.
The good news is that whatever you own continues to be supported with applicable software updates to ensure compatibility with the latest operating system.
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at least we knew what we were paying for....
Again, if it bothers you not to know in advance which features will be added, then don't pay for the subscription until features are added that you'll find useful.
And again, this is an option and could be one that eliminates the current discount and could lead to paying even more per feature that could be owned in comparison to the traditional model. This, again is the point I am making in response to your not understanding someone's decision contrary to you own....
Some want to know what they are purchasing, the current model, including waiting for a feature you like/would use still comes with the caveat that you do NOT know what you will own at the end of the cycle... And again, before you bring up the straw man of me wanting Logos to tell me what I will have two years from now - that is NOT my point! I am just pointing out the contrast of knowing what I am purchasing with the traditional option and NOT knowing the same with the subscription option....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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