PB Building SUCKS
Comments
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I have always thought that this forum is that as Christians that we comunicate and help one another for mitual benefit to study the Word of God. But ,unfortunatly I am seeing which makes me feel sad.
Blessings in Christ.
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Fabian said:
Es gibt mehrere Sachen die nerven:
Die falschen Versprechungen von Logos.
Das der PB Builder nicht wirklich geht, wie von Logos beworben.
Dass sich Logos wohl einen scheiss drum kümmert dies je zu flicken. Man könnte ja Geld verlieren.
Dass wenn man dann Logos auf die Füsse tritt, gleich die "Logos Advokaten" aufspringen und mit ihrem Beissreflex alle die es wagen ihrem Anbetungsobjekt zu nahe zu kommen im Forum niederschreien.
Keine Ahnung warum die das machen. Sie schaden sich ja selber, indem Logos dann die Probleme nicht angeht. Scheint wohl indoktriniert oder angeboren zu sein. Zumindest ist das rational anderweitig nicht zu begründen.
Selbst haben die "Logos Advokaten" aber keinen blassen Schimmer, sonst würden sie auch auf die selben Probleme stossen.
Die anderen Pöbler, die auch gleich darauf anspringen.
So ein kindisches Verhalten habe ich sonst in keinem anderen Forum erlebt.
Nur weil ein Post mental ein bisschen herausfordern ist, heisst das noch lange nicht, dass man es nicht wirklich lesen muss. Will heissen, mir fällt auf, dass wenn den Einten etwas nicht passt sie meine Nachricht nicht wirklich lesen. Sobald der Beissreflex anspringt schalten sie das Hirn aus. So wie der Weisse Hai, die Augen nach hinten dreht bevor er zubeisst um sie zu schützen.
Ich danke dir für deinen Rat, aber wenn sich niemand beschwert ändert sich auch nichts. Weiss du dass laut Untersuchungen nur 26% sich melden bei Problemen? Die anderen verlassen still und heimlich die Software, Service Dienstleiter etc.
Is this really necessary? I certainly haven't seen this take place in this thread. Explaining why something is the way it is should not be deemed the work of Logos fanboys or "advocates." You should be grateful that knowledgeable people take time out of their day to engage in discussion with you, in spite of the fact that you have seemingly been intentionally offensive throughout this thread. One example of this is that after being informed by multiple people that they found "suck" to be a potentially offensive word, you continued to use it an obnoxiously large number of times even though it did not contribute substantively to the discussion in ways that other words could not have done more effectively. Of course these forums are filled with people who appreciate and enjoy Logos. That's why they're here.
People in these forums highlight problems every single day that Logos employees take to heart and utilize to improve the software for all users. Your descriptions are offensive to read, and I can't help but feel you're painting a picture that differs drastically from reality. If you have been taking the time to read the contributions to this discussion you would observe that many people share your frustrations with the PB tool, and not a single person in this thread has praised it.
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Fabian said:
Yes, I thought the same, but we have to be sure this forum/threads are visited by the developers.
They are but it is not required. The forums are presented as peer-to-peer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Aaron Hamilton said:
If you have been taking the time to read the contributions to this discussion you would observe that many people share your frustrations with the PB tool, and not a single person in this thread has praised it.
Thats true. And thats why I'm stand of the feet of Logos so this get fixed. It's interesting they have come up, as I stand up. So it was quite good, this was discussed. To show Logos we are more than one which are unhappy (unhappy here is now an euphemism at least from my side).
On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me. But then the issues never get fixed. The euphemism Logos use here is "currently not planned".
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Fabian said:
The euphemism Logos use here is "currently not planned".
When you get your child a great Christmas gift .... and they ask if you did ... you can use Faithlife-ese and tell them "It's not currently planned!"
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Fabian said:
On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me. But then the issues never get fixed. The euphemism Logos use here is "currently not planned".
Fabian,as far as I have read in this thread, no one has tried to silence you. Nor am I trying to silence you when I am kindly asking you to please change some of your language and refrain from using offensive terminology which - in case you have not noticed - did not really achieve anything profitable for others (fellow users of Logos,or Logos employees or developers) reading your posts. The rather offensive terms you used in various posts in this thread did not help in furthering your valid cause and your attempt to have Logos improve or correct the features of the PBB tool. Maybe, it even turned readers away from following what the thread was about.
A soft word fitly spoken achieves more than rage and yelling words that become only deafening loud noise in the ears of the one being addressed.
As I learned from an outstanding famous musician in a master class many years ago, an audience may be somewhat noisy and often pays average attention when you play loudly, but they are naturally forced to be quiet and focus and pay close attention when you play softly.Some thoughts hopefully helpful to improve the manner of exchange to achieve a more effective communication especially when frustration levels with certain things are high.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Fabian said:
But then the issues never get fixed.
Translation into IT lingo: I don't have the resources to do everything and this particular issue has not yet reached a priority level to be allocated staff. Which, unfortunately for you, happens to reflect my priority on this particular item. PBB works well enough for what I use it for to leave me merely annoyed in comparison to tools I consider unfinished (Concordance), bugs+ design errors that leave a tool unusable (grid view clause search), missing tagging rendering book's information unfindable (sermons, personal letters). However, I have discovered that what I consider vital tools are irrelevant o many others so my priorities never get the treatment I think they deserve.
If you want to get PBB's fixed to your satisfaction, you need to build up a rapport with the other forumites so that they will join you in voting up the priorities of the PBB issues.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wolfgang Schneider said:Fabian said:
On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me. But then the issues never get fixed. The euphemism Logos use here is "currently not planned".
Fabian,as far as I have read in this thread, no one has tried to silence you. Nor am I trying to silence you when I am kindly asking you to please change some of your language and refrain from using offensive terminology which - in case you have not noticed - did not really achieve anything profitable for others (fellow users of Logos,or Logos employees or developers) reading your posts. The rather offensive terms you used in various posts in this thread did not help in furthering your valid cause and your attempt to have Logos improve or correct the features of the PBB tool. Maybe, it even turned readers away from following what the thread was about.
A soft word fitly spoken achieves more than rage and yelling words that become only deafening loud noise in the ears of the one being addressed.
As I learned from an outstanding famous musician in a master class many years ago, an audience may be somewhat noisy and often pays average attention when you play loudly, but they are naturally forced to be quiet and focus and pay close attention when you play softly.Some thoughts hopefully helpful to improve the manner of exchange to achieve a more effective communication especially when frustration levels with certain things are high.
Thanks Wolfgang for your words. There are times to speak quietly and there are times to speak loud. Some things are not done to improve or fix PB over a dekade.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Fabian said:[On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me.
Nobody is trying to silence you.
Your foul mouthed language is what is causing your undoing. And instead of toning it down when asked to do so you have increased it. Using a language other than English to express your foul mouth doesn’t make it any more acceptable.
You are free to express your views and desire's for how you think the software should work - but you are not free to use foul language in these forums. Your peers have made that clear more than once in this threat.You are not winning friends or influencing people with your word choices are not going to get the ear of Faithlife employee for the right reasons.
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Simon’s Brother said:
[
Fabian said:[On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me.
Nobody is trying to silence you.
Doch
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Fabian said:
There are times to speak quietly and there are times to speak loud.
I taught my children the difference as indoor voice vs. outdoor voice. When people post "loud" posts, I wish I could turn my (metaphorical) hearing aid off. But I grew up in and live in an area that is the butt of many jokes about our niceness but not friendliness. In my neck of the woods, your approach makes me less likely to support you goals. I have lived in parts of the country where your abrasiveness is the norm and might garner you more support. You have to decide for yourself which parts of the forumites you wish to reach in order to further your priorities.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Fabian said:
There are times to speak quietly and there are times to speak loud.
I taught my children the difference as indoor voice vs. outdoor voice. When people post "loud" posts, I wish I could turn my (metaphorical) hearing aid off. But I grew up in and live in an area that is the butt of many jokes about our niceness but not friendliness. In my neck of the woods, your approach makes me less likely to support you goals. I have lived in parts of the country where your abrasiveness is the norm and might garner you more support. You have to decide for yourself which parts of the forumites you wish to reach in order to further your priorities.
I've waited on this post. You said the forum is peer to peer. I know you are much smarter and clever than me. So you should recognize why I have been loud.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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It’s up to you Fabian. You are drawing focus away from the concern of your initial post. Continue with your foul language and attitude and that is all people will hear.
You are silencing yourself.
Fabian said:Simon’s Brother said:[
Fabian said:[On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me.
Nobody is trying to silence you.
Doch
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Fabian said:
So you should recognize why I have been loud.
Sorry but having grown up in a very Finnish community and living most of my life in the Pacific Northwest, I have encountered loud in other environments but never understood it. But thanks for the complement.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Simon’s Brother said:
It’s up to you Fabian. You are drawing focus away from the concern of your initial post. Continue with your foul language and attitude and that is all people will hear.
You are silencing yourself.
Fabian said:Simon’s Brother said:[
Fabian said:[On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me.
Nobody is trying to silence you.
Doch
Maybe at the end you are right. But only because the "Logos advocates" has corrupted my initial statement through their bite reflex.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Simon’s Brother said:
It’s up to you Fabian. You are drawing focus away from the concern of your initial post.
I have wrote soon a post to go back to my initial post. Unfortunately it hasn't gone through. Some hours later I have seen, it got lost as many times as I write posts. Sometimes I think the other users try per purpose to corrupt my posts. So at the end my goal got lost. This is also a way to try to silence me.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Simon’s Brother said:
You are silencing yourself.
This is so true. The wisdom in your words runs deep. In fact, this would be a fantastic title for a book on leadership and communication...
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Wolfgang Schneider said:Fabian said:
On the other hand some "Logos advocates" or as you say "fanboys". try to silence me. But then the issues never get fixed. The euphemism Logos use here is "currently not planned".
Fabian,as far as I have read in this thread, no one has tried to silence you. Nor am I trying to silence you when I am kindly asking you to please change some of your language and refrain from using offensive terminology which - in case you have not noticed - did not really achieve anything profitable for others (fellow users of Logos,or Logos employees or developers) reading your posts. The rather offensive terms you used in various posts in this thread did not help in furthering your valid cause and your attempt to have Logos improve or correct the features of the PBB tool. Maybe, it even turned readers away from following what the thread was about.
A soft word fitly spoken achieves more than rage and yelling words that become only deafening loud noise in the ears of the one being addressed.
As I learned from an outstanding famous musician in a master class many years ago, an audience may be somewhat noisy and often pays average attention when you play loudly, but they are naturally forced to be quiet and focus and pay close attention when you play softly.Some thoughts hopefully helpful to improve the manner of exchange to achieve a more effective communication especially when frustration levels with certain things are high.
Well said, Wolfgang! I hope he will take your advice and realise how much he has offended at least me with the language he has used. I have never heard a Christian in Germany using such words as he did. It shocked me very much when I read it.
Blessings in Christ.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Well, not quite. On the new Safari, the most recent page-visits are posted below the saved links. I have to explain to coffee drinkers next to me (with their surprised looks), it's just the Christians.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Well, not quite. On the new Safari, the most recent page-visits are posted below the saved links. I have to explain to coffee drinkers next to me (with their surprised looks), it's just the Christians.
I thoroughly enjoy your ability to expertly weave humor and insight.
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
As I learned from an outstanding famous musician in a master class many years ago, an audience may be somewhat noisy and often pays average attention when you play loudly, but they are naturally forced to be quiet and focus and pay close attention when you play softly.
That works if you are the leader with the micro. Or you are the teacher, pastor, Kindergärtnerin etc. But not if you are in the crowd.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Tes said:
Well said, Wolfgang! I hope he will take your advice and realise how much he has offended at least me with the language he has used. I have never heard a Christian in Germany using such words as he did. It shocked me very much when I read it.
It does happen though; in Germany swearing is more common among Christians than in the UK, and I assume in other English speaking countries too. Having lived in the UK for an extended period of time, I'm quite aware of these differences. There's some cultural sensitivity needed here.
I've pulled some information from ChatGPT why this is the case:
Attitudes toward cursing vary significantly across cultures and languages, even within the global Christian community. Several factors contribute to why cursing is often considered more offensive among English-speaking Christians compared to their non-English-speaking counterparts:
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Historical Religious Movements: English-speaking countries like the United Kingdom and the United States have historical roots in Puritanism and other conservative Christian movements. These groups emphasized moral strictness and personal piety, categorizing cursing as sinful behavior. This legacy has had a lasting impact on societal norms regarding profanity.
-
Linguistic Connections to Religion: In English, many profane words are directly linked to religious concepts. Words like "damn," "hell," "God," and "Jesus Christ" are often used as expletives. Using these terms casually can be seen as taking sacred names in vain, directly violating commandments against blasphemy. In contrast, swear words in other languages may focus more on secular themes like bodily functions or vulgarity without religious implications.
-
Cultural Emphasis on Politeness: English-speaking societies have traditionally placed a high value on courteous speech and decorum. Polite language is often associated with good upbringing and moral integrity. Cursing disrupts these social expectations, making it more offensive in contexts where politeness is highly valued.
-
Religious Teachings on Speech: Many English-speaking Christian denominations emphasize the importance of guarding one's speech as a reflection of inner morality. Biblical passages that warn against "filthy language" or "unwholesome talk" (e.g., Ephesians 4:29) are often highlighted in sermons and religious education, reinforcing the taboo against cursing.
-
Legal and Media Regulations: Historically, there have been stricter laws and regulations against blasphemy and profanity in English-speaking countries. Media outlets often censor offensive language, which reinforces the notion that such speech is unacceptable in public discourse.
-
Variations in Swearing Practices: In some non-English-speaking cultures, profanity may be more socially acceptable or used differently. For example, certain languages incorporate swear words more fluidly into everyday conversation without the same level of offense. The context and intent behind the words play a significant role in how they are perceived.
-
Secular vs. Religious Societal Values: Some non-English-speaking countries may have a more secular approach to public life, where religious norms exert less influence over social behaviors like speech. This can result in a more relaxed attitude toward cursing, even among individuals who identify as Christian.
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Cultural Nuances in Offense: What is considered offensive can vary greatly between cultures. In some societies, actions or behaviors other than cursing might be deemed more disrespectful, shifting the focus away from language to other forms of conduct.
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Community Enforcement: English-speaking Christian communities might be more proactive in policing language within their circles, creating social pressures to avoid cursing. This communal reinforcement strengthens the taboo against profanity.
In summary, the heightened offensiveness of cursing among English-speaking Christians is the result of intertwined historical, linguistic, cultural, and religious factors that collectively shape attitudes toward profane language. Understanding these nuances highlights how perceptions of offensiveness are culturally constructed and vary across different Christian communities worldwide.
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Jan Krohn said:
Several factors contribute to why cursing is often considered more offensive among English-speaking Christians compared to their non-English-speaking counterparts
This is helpful information. For me, however, the following comments were much more offensive than the cursing, and I found no evidence in this thread to warrant such claims:
Fabian said:Sie schaden sich ja selber, indem Logos dann die Probleme nicht angeht. Scheint wohl indoktriniert oder angeboren zu sein.
Fabian said:Selbst haben die "Logos Advokaten" aber keinen blassen Schimmer
Fabian said:So ein kindisches Verhalten habe ich sonst in keinem anderen Forum erlebt.
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Fabian said:
3. Dass sich Logos wohl einen scheiss drum kümmert dies je zu flicken.
TIL Google Translate and Bing Translate choose different curse words when translating this sentence.
Fabian said:But then the issues never get fixed. The euphemism Logos use here is "currently not planned".
I'm not sure how this is a euphemism. It's literally true that no improvements to PBB are currently planned for the next year.
If I had wanted to use a more "polite" customer service response (i.e., euphemism), I could have said "Thanks for the suggestion!" or "We'll take your input under consideration" or "Your feedback is important to us" or "We'll consider this for an upcoming release".
Instead, I gave you the truth: it's not going to be worked on (unless there's a major change of internal priorities). What would you have liked me to say instead?
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
I'm not sure how this is a euphemism. It's literally true that no improvements to PBB are currently planned for the next year.
If I had wanted to use a more "polite" customer service response (i.e., euphemism), I could have said "Thanks for the suggestion!" or "We'll take your input under consideration" or "Your feedback is important to us" or "We'll consider this for an upcoming release".
Instead, I gave you the truth: it's not going to be worked on (unless there's a major change of internal priorities). What would you have liked me to say instead?
It seems to me that the "it is currently not planned" or "improvements to PBB are currently not planned for the next year" or whatever "more polite customer service wording" are rather unclear, perhaps even evasive statements when the real underlying issue is essentially a different one:
As has been mentioned before, Logos had a particular intent and purpose for developing and implementing the PBB tool, which was to enable users to incorporate their own works, sermons, etc. into their own Logos installation library to allow some basic functionality of the app to include these personal books. Users rather quickly began using the PBB tool for completely different purposes, such as to compile published works by other authors in the public domain, etc. In doing so the expectations for more functionality of the PBB tool grew beyond the functionality which Logos initially had planned. Thus the real issue and cause for the ongoing trouble seems rooted in the growing discrepancy between Logos' purpose for the PBB tool and users' expectations/purposes for the PBB tool that are simply beyond what the tool is meant to do.
I would say the solution involves and should start with Logos clearly and unambiguously stating and communicating their position regarding the PBB tool => e.g. (a) the functionality of the PBB tool remains limited to the state as is because we deem this to suffice for what users may do, (b) the functionality of the PBB tool will be developed further to include "{such and such}" to enable users to then do "{such and such}" etc. ...
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Let's cut to the chase - if you wish to underwrite tripling the programming, testing, and designing staff including benefits and overhead costs at the going rates for experienced staff, I'll gladly let you set some of the priorities. If you can't afford to underwrite it, then you are stuck in the perpetual push and pull of users with different priorities pushing and pulling the company in different directions. Then you have to trust that those who know the actual code and data can set priorities better than the users. To quote the OP "it sucks" ... but that's the reality of the situation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
It seems to me that the "it is currently not planned" or "improvements to PBB are currently not planned for the next year" or whatever "more polite customer service wording" are rather unclear, perhaps even evasive statements when the real underlying issue is essentially a different one:
As Charlie Brown would say "Good grief" ... I'll not trust your hermeneutics. "It is currently not planned" means "it is currently not planned" i.e. the scheduled work for the next twelve months or so does not allocate resources to do this. It says nothing about its place in the queue for the next planning period - likely a rolling 12 months updated quarterly or semiannually. Actually, the original plan for L4 was to allow users to sell their own work through a Logos storefront.
Especially with the competition from AI for many basic Logos functions, Logos must remain agile and NOT commit itself to what it will or will not be working on a year from now.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
when the real underlying issue is essentially a different one
I get the point being made here. We would be quite privileged indeed, however, if we were to receive such a window into the planning process. Logos is already the most personal and transparent company I know when it comes to such matters. That's not "fanboy" talk. That's just fact. Can anyone name another company where you can spread cursing and insults around on a public forum and receive a patient reply in return from upper management? I certainly can't.
The question could be asked, preferably in a new thread. And perhaps we would in fact be privileged enough to receive a thorough answer. Or perhaps not. Either way, I think it off base to paint a straight answer as an evasive statement. There are always deeper reasons for decisions that are made. But usually only a select few are privileged with that information.
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
It seems to me that the "it is currently not planned" or "improvements to PBB are currently not planned for the next year" or whatever "more polite customer service wording" are rather unclear, perhaps even evasive statements
I personally don't think it is unclear or evasive. It communicates very clearly that no further developments to the PB tool are currently planned. This is the case for some time now. The reasons for this have been communicated, too - there are a number of threads and also lots of feedback votes asking Logos to support PBs more, especially to make them available on the web and mobile - so there's no need to ask for mor clarity.
Actually I wanted to refrain from posting here (keeping a thread with such an inacceptable title alive ... in my opinion it should have been locked and forgotten long ago), but I want to address something that is the actual issue here: much of the discussion keeps the inadequate framing of the OP title:
Aaron Hamilton said:If you have been taking the time to read the contributions to this discussion you would observe that many people share your frustrations with the PB tool, and not a single person in this thread has praised it.
I think that's only because many posters refrain from posting in this thread at all or posting general arguments in favor of the PB features, knowing they would subsequently be attacked as "fanboys" or worse that try to silence other users. It stopped me until now, but I think this perspective is sorely lacking here:
PB Building IS GREAT
- PBs allow users to have books that for most of the usage scenarios are fully on par with Logos resources
- PBs allow users to have books that come from a demographic currently underserved by Logos (such as the Restoration Movement)
- PBs allow users to have books in languages Logos doesn't serve at all
- PBs allow real collaboration between users (some of my most special memories in this forum)
Yes, building heavily indexed books requires a bit of effort - which is true for the Logos resources as well - and there are some edge cases where PBs do not fully reach parity with Logos books (we can't build real RIs). But this doesn't negate that there are hundreds of great PBs shared in the Logos community and many users build PBs without any issues at all and many many more experience them in a very beneficial way.
Why do I jump in? Because if PB Building really wasn't functional and the user experience only leading to frustration (for the small number of people actually building PBs), Logos might decide to take it out of the program entirely. May that never happen! It simply isn't true that PB building doesn't work, that it has lost functionality, let alone features that were "promised" by Logos to users, or any other of the things people can read in this thread.
There may be an easy solution to Fabians issues with his dictionary, but the way he choose to frame his post was not helpful in understanding what the issue actually is and in encouraging people who build PBs to invest time and effort to help him. That doesn't make his feelings an adequate frame to understand this great functionality.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Actually I wanted to refrain from posting here (keeping a thread with such an inacceptable title alive ... in my opinion it should have been locked and forgotten long ago), but I want to address something that is the actual issue here: much of the discussion keeps the inadequate framing of the OP title:
The frustration I think revolves around the knowledge that PB building could be so much better and is currently underdeveloped. I hope as well that it sticks around indefinitely, even if it is never improved upon. But if it continues to be ignored, eventually it may get the ax.
The perspective that Logos has provided explains in my view well enough the problems associated with PBB and the reasons it has not been a focus for development. I think it would be neat sometime to hear a future-oriented vision for PBB. This is what I believe is lacking. And the reason it is lacking likely pertains to PBB not being a priority. This, however, as MJ adequately explained, is perfectly fine.
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Jan Krohn said:Tes said:
Well said, Wolfgang! I hope he will take your advice and realise how much he has offended at least me with the language he has used. I have never heard a Christian in Germany using such words as he did. It shocked me very much when I read it.
It does happen though; in Germany swearing is more common among Christians than in the UK, and I assume in other English speaking countries too. Having lived in the UK for an extended period of time, I'm quite aware of these differences. There's some cultural sensitivity needed here.
I've pulled some information from ChatGPT why this is the case:
Attitudes toward cursing vary significantly across cultures and languages, even within the global Christian community. Several factors contribute to why cursing is often considered more offensive among English-speaking Christians compared to their non-English-speaking counterparts:
-
Historical Religious Movements: English-speaking countries like the United Kingdom and the United States have historical roots in Puritanism and other conservative Christian movements. These groups emphasized moral strictness and personal piety, categorizing cursing as sinful behavior. This legacy has had a lasting impact on societal norms regarding profanity.
-
Linguistic Connections to Religion: In English, many profane words are directly linked to religious concepts. Words like "damn," "hell," "God," and "Jesus Christ" are often used as expletives. Using these terms casually can be seen as taking sacred names in vain, directly violating commandments against blasphemy. In contrast, swear words in other languages may focus more on secular themes like bodily functions or vulgarity without religious implications.
-
Cultural Emphasis on Politeness: English-speaking societies have traditionally placed a high value on courteous speech and decorum. Polite language is often associated with good upbringing and moral integrity. Cursing disrupts these social expectations, making it more offensive in contexts where politeness is highly valued.
-
Religious Teachings on Speech: Many English-speaking Christian denominations emphasize the importance of guarding one's speech as a reflection of inner morality. Biblical passages that warn against "filthy language" or "unwholesome talk" (e.g., Ephesians 4:29) are often highlighted in sermons and religious education, reinforcing the taboo against cursing.
-
Legal and Media Regulations: Historically, there have been stricter laws and regulations against blasphemy and profanity in English-speaking countries. Media outlets often censor offensive language, which reinforces the notion that such speech is unacceptable in public discourse.
-
Variations in Swearing Practices: In some non-English-speaking cultures, profanity may be more socially acceptable or used differently. For example, certain languages incorporate swear words more fluidly into everyday conversation without the same level of offense. The context and intent behind the words play a significant role in how they are perceived.
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Secular vs. Religious Societal Values: Some non-English-speaking countries may have a more secular approach to public life, where religious norms exert less influence over social behaviors like speech. This can result in a more relaxed attitude toward cursing, even among individuals who identify as Christian.
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Cultural Nuances in Offense: What is considered offensive can vary greatly between cultures. In some societies, actions or behaviors other than cursing might be deemed more disrespectful, shifting the focus away from language to other forms of conduct.
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Community Enforcement: English-speaking Christian communities might be more proactive in policing language within their circles, creating social pressures to avoid cursing. This communal reinforcement strengthens the taboo against profanity.
In summary, the heightened offensiveness of cursing among English-speaking Christians is the result of intertwined historical, linguistic, cultural, and religious factors that collectively shape attitudes toward profane language. Understanding these nuances highlights how perceptions of offensiveness are culturally constructed and vary across different Christian communities worldwide.
Thank you Jan for your comments and your analysis, according to my understanding as Christians, even though we have different cultures, languages and habits, we have the Bible as a standard guide.
Blessings in Christ.
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Is this a private brawl, or can I join in?
I love the PBB. I have a good 400 books built with at least that many more on the far-back burner. For my purposes, it works great.
I have written a few books in my time and find the concordance feature and search capability aid in analyzing my own writing.
Well said.NB.Mick said:PB Building IS GREAT
- PBs allow users to have books that for most of the usage scenarios are fully on par with Logos resources
- PBs allow users to have books that come from a demographic currently underserved by Logos (such as the Restoration Movement)
- PBs allow users to have books in languages Logos doesn't serve at all
- PBs allow real collaboration between users (some of my most special memories in this forum)
I prefer that Logos invest their time and resources in making Logos better rather than dawdling with my hard-earned subscription money on some para-Logos capability.
Suggestion: If good folks want capability beyond what is already amazing for creating PB's (not to be confused with PBJ's), then maybe they could develop a great third-party app on their own; build something better than MS Word, that creates exactly the document that fits the already-amazing capabilities of the Logos PB. I might even buy it!0 -
Aaron Hamilton said:
I hope as well that it sticks around indefinitely, even if it is never improved upon. But if it continues to be ignored, eventually it may get the ax.
As one who uses PBB constantly to create sermons and Bible studies, I also hope it sicks around indefinitely even if it is never improved upon. I am thankful for PBB. It would be a huge loss if it disappeared.
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Hello Bradley,
Logos advertising their software with the ability to create PBs. As I mentioned above there are great features. But some issues with the PB are over a decade old. Wolfgang recapitulate it very well. If after years, and years of development there is no time to fix this. You can't blame me to come to the conclusion I mentioned in German. For me Logos does false claims to convince new users.
Recently I've heard, with the new subscription model, Logos will be able to address even such neglected features. But the first that I heard then was "currently not planned" It is clear for the near future the transition to the subscription is more important. But you can't tell me to fix the issues with the PB and to add Tooltiptool, and the other link feature would take months for the experienced developers Logos has. Your words may be the truth as sentence itself, but in the context of the actions of Logos over all the years, I say they aren't the truth.
It is very annoying to put time in a PB, and it has to build several times because something got broken. Only to try to fix hasn't helped. Unless this is fixed the title of this thread is still true.
Wolfgang mentioned public domain titles or mit abgelaufenem Urheberrecht (this is different to public domain) user created PB's. But that is legit. Logos also take public domain titles and even sell it.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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NB.Mick said:
There may be an easy solution to Fabians issues with his dictionary, but the way he choose to frame his post was not helpful in understanding what the issue actually is and in encouraging people who build PBs to invest time and effort to help him. That doesn't make his feelings an adequate frame to understand this great functionality.
I have built it several times until I got it to run. Adding a new link. Crashed most of the existing links. This should be fixed from the Logos side. As they haven't invested time over a decade to fix such issues. This thread it to give attention to it.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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GaoLu said:
Suggestion: If good folks want capability beyond what is already amazing for creating PB's (not to be confused with PBJ's), then maybe they could develop a great third-party app on their own; build something better than MS Word, that creates exactly the document that fits the already-amazing capabilities of the Logos PB. I might even buy it!
Another Bible software has such a tool. I have no personal experience with it.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Rude and crude.... is some people's way as they think they are the squeaking wheel that gets the crease.... I've read enough of this forum.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Rude and crude.... is some people's way as they think they are the squeaking wheel that gets the crease.... I've read enough of this forum.
You have bombed many countries to be the hegemon and you say to me rude and crude. Really?
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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I think people should stop adding to this thread as its just triggers those who can’t control themselves to further unbecoming behaviour. No value is being served here.
👁️ 👁️
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Antony Brennan said:
I think people should stop adding to this thread. No value is being served here.
You are right with the most, as I also thinks I have said all numerous times what is to say here. Would have not the Logos advocates corruptet the thread it would have been very short.
Antony Brennan said:triggers those who can’t control themselves to further unbecoming behaviour.
The truth hurts. Otherwise you hadn't wrote this. Between bombing and produce thousands of death in contrary to a few words. Is a huuuge difference. Hypocrisy at its best.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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I rest my case
👁️ 👁️
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Fabian said:It is very annoying to put time in a PB, and it has to build several times because something got broken. Only to try to fix hasn't helped. Unless this is fixed the title of this thread is still true.
I think we can all agree that the current Personal Book Builder tool doesn't meet your needs. We have heard your feedback that it "sucks". I'm sorry you're unhappy with this free feature we give away in the core Logos engine that's made available to all users. (If it were a paid feature, I would offer to refund your money, but it's included in the free engine, so no refund is available for that.)
Your feedback on this feature will be combined with the 10,000s of other pieces of feedback we receive annually about the product to help set our development priorities for the next year.
We have limited development resources and need to be judicious about where we deploy them. So far, this hasn't been on improving PBB.
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Given that we are now doing subscriptions, maybe it is time to reconsider making base tools like the book builder to be brought up to the rest of the platform. Reassign it if necessary. I stopped using it early on because it wasn't crossplatform with mobile.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
Given that we are now doing subscriptions, maybe it is time to reconsider making base tools like the book builder to be brought up to the rest of the platform. Reassign it if necessary. I stopped using it early on because it wasn't crossplatform with mobile.
Yes, it's possible that a revamped Personal Book Builder could be launched as a subscription-only feature. (But it's not one we're planning for next year. And that might not solve Fabian's issue if he's expecting free updates to the current tool for non-subscribers.)
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I love the Personal Book feature of Logos! I would hate to see it go away, and I would love for it to be improved.
One of my most treasured resources is a collection of sermons by the great G. Campbell Morgan. Also, as a Wesleyan - Methodist minister, I have made many personal books from books written by great Wesleyan preachers such as Henry Clay Morrison who founded Asbury Seminary. Many of the Wesleyan Methodist pioneers are in public domain and unlikely to ever by published by Logos.
If upgrading in Logos ever meant that I would lose my personal books, I just would never upgrade again. Of course, never upgrading again may be my best option since I do not presently intend to subscribe to any of the Logos subscription plans.
I can personally only think of two things that would tempt me to purchase a subscription. One is if they offer a better personal book maker, and the other is if they decided to publish the Bicentennial Edition of the Works of John Wesley.
Of course, I do plan to continue to buy commentaries and books from Logos so long as they will function on my present Logos 10 full feature software. I do use my Logos program daily and have done so for about 40 years now.
I have introduced dozens of people to Logos Bible software over the decades. But the uncertainty caused by the subscription controversy makes me very hesitant to do so again until we see what the future holds. Glad I jumped into Logos when I did.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:mab said:
Given that we are now doing subscriptions, maybe it is time to reconsider making base tools like the book builder to be brought up to the rest of the platform. Reassign it if necessary. I stopped using it early on because it wasn't crossplatform with mobile.
Yes, it's possible that a revamped Personal Book Builder could be launched as a subscription-only feature. (But it's not one we're planning for next year. And that might not solve Fabian's issue if he's expecting free updates to the current tool for non-subscribers.)
I would much rather see the sermon editor turned into a REAL editor as has been requested for years here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
Maybe now that subscription is the norm you guys can work to make it more functional and usable (The Sermon Editor).
DAL
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Yes, it's possible that a revamped Personal Book Builder could be launched as a subscription-only feature.
In such case, would non-subscription folks continue to have the current PBB tool available to them or would the new revamped PBB tool replace the current one in the app, resulting in there no longer being a PBB tool available to non-subscription users?
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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DAL said:
I would much rather see the sermon editor turned into a REAL editor as has been requested for years here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
Maybe now that subscription is the norm you guys can work to make it more functional and usable (The Sermon Editor).
Sermon Editor is being worked on. Some of the more visible recent changes are the AI features being introduced (https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_34.0) but the team has also been very hard at work on bringing it to Android (https://feedback.logos.com/boards/faithlife-sermons/posts/sermons-bring-sermon-builder-to-android), which has required an overhaul of the whole editing implementation. This foundational improvement should allow us to improve other editing functionality later on.
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