Please advise on good computer specifications.

Noel Fitzpatrick

I would like to
have Logos 4 run faster  for me, so I
would welcome suggestions.

I am grateful
for Rosie’s suggestions and have implemented some of the ideas in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Running_Slowly.

I was concerned about the slow speed some years ago
and got good advice from Rob Haskell (April 2005), but I am still concerned.

My computer is about 10 years old, so I am thinking
about getting a new one.  I use it mainly
for Logos 4 (sometimes, but rarely, I look at BW8) and also for surfing the net
and using gmail.  I would like a computer  to
give me good service now and in future years. 
I am looking at one that has 4 Gb memory, 1 Tb HD, 1920 x 1090 screen,
NVDIA (1Gb) graphics.  But I am concerned
about the CPU as it has Intel Core 2 Duo E75000 (2.93 Ghz) and this may now be
obsolete,  being replaced by i3, i5 and
i7 processors.

I note someone was using  Intel Core2
Quad CPU Q6600 (2.40 GHz),  8 GB RAM and NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT w/ 512 MB RAM, http://community.logos.com/forums/t/9421.aspx.

Is this CPU (quad, 2.4 GHz faster than the 2 Duo, 2.93
GHz I am looking at? Would 8 Gb RAM make an appreciable difference?

 I am confused. 
What should I do? 

Doug

Hey Noel,

It seems as though you are already thinking about this very logically.  I built a new system back in January with the i7 and haven't been disappointed one bit.  I have to recommend that if you are concerned about the future of your investment that you go with an i5 or i7 system.  L4 runs really well on it and it will be around for some time.  I have 8 GB of ram but 4 would be plenty.  1 GB or video ram.  7200 rpm hard drives.  My advise is to get the best system you can, then you won't have to replace it for a while.

Dave Hooton

If you can afford it, go for an i7 but an i5 is OK. Both are better than a Core 2 Duo, which is effectively replaced by the i3. If you want quad core then take the i7, not the Core 2.

8 GB RAM is better than 4 GB for future-proofing your system.

You need 512 MB or 1 GB onboard graphics memory, so make sure it is not being taken out of system memory (RAM).

George Somsel

Noel Fitzpatrick said:

 

I would like to have Logos 4 run faster  for me, so I would welcome suggestions.

I am grateful for Rosie’s suggestions and have implemented some of the ideas in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Running_Slowly.

I was concerned about the slow speed some years ago and got good advice from Rob Haskell (April 2005), but I am still concerned.

My computer is about 10 years old, so I am thinking about getting a new one.  I use it mainly for Logos 4 (sometimes, but rarely, I look at BW8) and also for surfing the net and using gmail.  I would like a computer  to give me good service now and in future years.  I am looking at one that has 4 Gb memory, 1 Tb HD, 1920 x 1090 screen, NVDIA (1Gb) graphics.  But I am concerned about the CPU as it has Intel Core 2 Duo E75000 (2.93 Ghz) and this may now be obsolete,  being replaced by i3, i5 and i7 processors.

I note someone was using  Intel Core2 Quad CPU Q6600 (2.40 GHz),  8 GB RAM and NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT w/ 512 MB RAM, http://community.logos.com/forums/t/9421.aspx.

Is this CPU (quad, 2.4 GHz faster than the 2 Duo, 2.93 GHz I am looking at? Would 8 Gb RAM make an appreciable difference?

 I am confused.  What should I do? 

 

The general rule of thumb is to take one step back from bleeding-edge technology so that you don't pay a premium for the power.  With most of us the price does matter even though we want the best possible.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170892#Comment_170892

Trying to work out which CPUs are faster than others is almost impossible without help. The best help is here: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php
Using that list, you can quickly work out whether newer necessarily means faster. Bear in mind though that the i3, i5 and i7 chips do have a few additional features which may make them slightly quicker in the real world if applications are optimised for them.

When I spend time trying to speed up my computer specifically for Logos, I found that there were large gains to be had in these areas (in order):

• RAM size, and to a lesser extent RAM speed.
• Hard Disk speed (SSD if you can afford it, 15,000rpm SATA if you can't)
• Graphics (surprisingly, you need good 2D and 3D performance for Logos)
• Processor speed

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170892#Comment_170892

George Somsel said:

The general rule of thumb is to take one step back from bleeding-edge technology so that you don't pay a premium for the power.  With most of us the price does matter even though we want the best possible.

Definitely. You'll get much better value in buying relatively cheap computers every 3-4 years than buying a very expensive computer every 6-8 years. If I was buying a computer now, I'd be looking at an 8Gb, i5 750 with 1Gb graphics and a fast HDD.

David Wilson

For Logos 4, I would suggest a system with 1GB video RAM, 8GB system RAM, 1TB hard drive, Windows 7 (64 bit) and a six core processor (to minimize indexing time)

While Intel fans may prefer the i7, AMD make a six core processor which seems to do very well indeed and seems to come at a lot lower price.

The HP HPE-235f is one I can recommend that is available for less than $1000, although you will probably want a bundle with a new monitor if your system is at the 10 year mark.

If you are looking to keep your system for a considerable time, then you should aim at something just short of the current leading edge, rather than something which is lower priced technology that is already one or two years old.  Try to avoid 4GB RAM systems with 32 bit Windows operating systems.  The only draw back for going to 64 bit is that your older 16 bit software (such as Logos 2) will no longer work: but you can keep your older system for such things.  Your old system will rum a lot faster once you uninstall everything except your minimum needs (eg: by moving Logos 4 to the type of modern system for which it was designed).

David Paul

As you might expect from me (considering my avatar)...my suggestion is CRAM with RAM!!!

That goes for any computer at whatever time you purchase it...it is always the most important feature. At this point in time 8G is good...but if you can get/afford more, do so.  Also, you might wish to check what your upgrade options for RAM will be in the future--will the motherboard support upgrades? And in what configurations? That way you can bump-up in the future without having to go all-in on a new system.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171015#Comment_171015

David J. Wilson said:

The only draw back for going to 64 bit is that your older 16 bit software (such as Logos 2) will no longer work: but you can keep your older system for such things. 

The other problem is peripherals older than c. 3 years as you will need a 64-bit driver for:-

• printer
• scanner
• fax
• multi-function Printer, scanner, fax

Check the web site of the manufacturer for software/driver for 64-bit Windows. If they advise that it comes with the OS it will be a basic driver only, otherwise factor in the cost of a new peripheral!

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171015#Comment_171015

David J. Wilson said:

The only draw back for going to 64 bit is that your older 16 bit software (such as Logos 2) will no longer work: but you can keep your older system for such things.

True, though in Windows 7 Professional there is an XP emulation mode which will happily run 16-bit software.

Noel Fitzpatrick

Thanks for all the very
good advice I am getting. I appreciate all your comments and would like some
more suggestions, as I have been using Logos almost every day for years, and it
is important for me to make a good choice.  I hope to
consider carefully all the suggestions and then make a final
decision.

Arising out of the
comments so far, I am thinking of going for 8 Gb RAM, rather than 4 Gb (I like
the idea to cram ram). The Sony VPCL13S1E seems fine (it may not be available
in the US).  I am attracted by the 24 inch touchscreen, and the all-in-one arrangement. The graphics NVDIA
GeForce GT 330M GPU (1 GB) sounds fine. The problem is the Intel Core 2 Duo
E8400 (3.00Ghz) processor.  But it is faster than the one I originally
considered (E7500), 

So, if you like, please
send me more ideas and suggestion. 

Thanks and best
wishes. 

NF

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171336#Comment_171336

I wouldn't recommend the Sony for all the reasons previously stated.

Look at the computers here that have dedicated video memory (DX4840-15 or 07) & i5 processors. Add a monitor/screen of choice, no need to get one bundled.

Ben

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171653#Comment_171653

SSDs are likely too expensive (as they are for most people right now), but check out the Seagate Momentus XT. It's a 7200 RPM drive with 4Gb SSD built in, which means that startup times are greatly reduced. It's a little bit of the best of both worlds- the cheap capacity of HD with some of the advantages of a SSD.

It's gotten uniformly great reviews.

 

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171336#Comment_171336

Noel Fitzpatrick said:

Arising out of the
comments so far, I am thinking of going for 8 Gb RAM, rather than 4 Gb (I like
the idea to cram ram). The Sony VPCL13S1E seems fine (it may not be available
in the US).  I am attracted by the 24 inch touchscreen, and the all-in-one arrangement. The graphics NVDIA
GeForce GT 330M GPU (1 GB) sounds fine

Are you purchasing a notebook or desktop?

I build my own PCs and therefore all prices are based on discrete components from NewEgg for system builders.  Logos 4 will run great with any of the following:

RAM: Make sure your RAM is at least DDR3 1600 (aka PC3 12800).  There are much faster RAM available for hardware enthusiasts. I think 8 GB RAM would be nice, but a bit overkill for your computer use.

Video Card: I'm not familiar with the Nvidia GT 330M, as it seems to be a mobile GPU.  If you are considering a desktop, the best performing GPUs currently are from AMD/ATI (Radeon 5000 series).  I use a 1GB DDR5, 128-bit Radeon 5670 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150467) and a 1GB DDR3 256-bit Radeon 4850 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150351).  You will spend more for Nvidia cards that have similar performance. I've used both Nvidia and ATI GPUs and can attest better bang for the buck with AMD/ATI.  The exception may be Nvidia's G92 series, as they still provide outstanding value for the price.

CPU: If you are happy with Intel, definitely get an i7 CPU, such as the i7-930 2.8 GHz Bloomfield (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115225) or the i7-860 2.8 GHz Lynnfield (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115214).  If you are well funded, get a high performance X58 chipset motherboard for Intel LGA 1366 CPUs. Intel's 6-core LGA 1366 CPUs costs between $900 and $1,000 if you buy components.  See http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007671%20600005862%20600030238&IsNodeId=1&name=Six-Core

If you are happy with AMD, I recommend a Phenom II X4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103727). For an AMD 6-core CPU, the value is even better with the Phenom II X6 1090T at $291 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103849).

I personally am using an Intel i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66 GHz LGA 1156 CPU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115215&cm_re=i5-750-_-19-115-215-_-Product)  overclocked to 3.8 - 4.0 GHz on one system.  I use an AMD Phenom II X2 555 Callisto 3.2GHz AM3 socket on another system, with special hardware and BIOS that allowed unlocking of two additional cores - in essence, I have a Phenom II X4 CPU! Not all X2 555 are guaranteed to function as a Quad core.

Please note that current Intel LGA 1366 and LGA 1156 CPUs and motherboards will not be compatible with the upcoming Sandy Bridge 32nm CPU from Intel.  Sandy Bridge will require a new chipset (I think P67?), motherboard, and socket LGA 1155.

Update:  If SSD are too expensive, I recommend 10,000 RPM drives from Western Digital.  Specifically, VelociRaptor 300GB 16MB cache SATA 3 drives for RAID 0 or RAID 5 configurations (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136322) Or, consider the Western Digital VelociRaptor 10,000 RPM, 600GB, 32MB cache, SATA 6 drives.  Make sure your motherboard supports SATA 6.

PSU: Please don't purchase a cheap power supply.  Those $20 - $40 generic PSUs are usually not very reliable and tend to cause crashes if your system specs are high end. I recommend PSU's that (1) are certified at least 80 Bronze in terms of power efficiency, (2) have modular cable system, and (3) include at least a 3 year warranty.  I highly recommend PSU's made by Corsair, Antec, Enermax, Cooler Master, and SeaSonic, just to name a few good products out there.

David

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171336#Comment_171336

Noel Fitzpatrick said:

Arising out of the
comments so far, I am thinking of going for 8 Gb RAM, rather than 4 Gb (I like
the idea to cram ram). The Sony VPCL13S1E seems fine (it may not be available
in the US).  I am attracted by the 24 inch touchscreen, and the all-in-one arrangement. The graphics NVDIA
GeForce GT 330M GPU (1 GB) sounds fine

All-in-one idea => refurbished 27" iMac with display resolution of 2,560 by 1,440 with LED backlight and ram cram max of 16 GB:

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/imac

Running Windows in a virtual machine on Mac OS X is an option (needs appropriate Windows license).  Alternative is using Apple's Boot Camp to divide hard drive into 2 bootable partitions - one for Mac OS X and the other for Windows.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171778#Comment_171778

It's also worth remembering that it's much easier to upgrade RAM later than it would be to upgrade anything else. So if you can't afford what you want now, you could settle with 4Gb RAM, and upgrade to 8Gb in 18 months time when (a) You'll benefit even more from it, and (b) It will be much cheaper.

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171714#Comment_171714

David L Bailey said:

Please note that current Intel LGA 1366 and LGA 1156 CPUs and motherboards will not be compatible with the upcoming Sandy Bridge 32nm CPU from Intel.  Sandy Bridge will require a new chipset (I think P67?), motherboard, and socket LGA 1155.

Correction:  I meant to say the X58 (LGA 1366) and P55 (LGA 1156) chipsets and motherboards won't be compatible with Sandy Bridge. This also means a Sandy Bridge CPU can't be used on current Intel motherboards.

Michael Thebert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171876#Comment_171876

With upgrading a desktop in mind why not consider getting a larger, say 32 inch, LCD monitor with video inputs.  The kind that is really a tv but takes other inputs.  Then can also use it as a tv but have nice larger screen for larger text and maybe more on the screen at the same time by lowering text size?

Just need to be sure it will take the input your video card can put out.  I know someone who uses a very nice 46 inch screen and just sits back from it in a reclining chair for reading.

 

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171910#Comment_171910

We're all different, but I wouldn't recommend a large TV with a computer. They're relatively low resolution for the size, and they're not designed for close-up work. Much better to buy multiple monitors, in my view.

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/171957#Comment_171957

I agree in general.  However, if we are talking about HDTV 32" (720p), then it may work out better.  I don't use my HDTV because the texts on the screen are too small and I would have to reduce the screen resolution. Also, I have to sit up close to read them.  A monitor is best for computer (no games, no videos) applications such as Logos. I'd test it out on an HDTV - it may work for you.

Noel Fitzpatrick

Thanks for all the help and good advice I have received. I was pleased so many contributed to this discussion.  Arising out of your comments I changed my ideas completely and rather than going for Sony I chose Dell, which had the advantage that I could chose the features I wanted.

As the computer will be a birthday present to me from me for a significant birthday and as I hope it will see me out I wanted to get a decent one. 

I note a recent discussion which considers the relative merits of RAM and SSD.  So I hope I have chosen wisely.  However the computer has been bought and I await delivery.

I chose the following:

8192 MB Memory

1.5 TB Serial ATA (7200 RPM) Hard Drive

24 in screen

1 GB ATI Radeon HD 5770 Graphics card

Windows 7 Home Premium (64 BIT).

Some time ago I read in Logos there are three thing one should focus on: 1 learn how to use Logos efficiently, 2 learn the Bible using Logos and 3 pray the Bible.  I hope I will be able to look after the first two and with God's help make progress with the third.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/179824#Comment_179824

Noel those look like good specs all around - they should net you good performance.  The only bit I'm not sure about is your processor.  

Can you round out the specs by telling us what CPU it has - that will be the final bit of the puzzle.

Noel Fitzpatrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/179824#Comment_179824

The computer I chose is a Dell Studio XPS 8100 (Intel Core i7) Processor 870 (2.93 GHz).

Sorry for omitting this key information.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/179851#Comment_179851

With those specs Noel, I would forecast satisfaction.  :-)

The truly power hungry among us (ok me too) can't help but wonder if even more RAM and an SSD would go farther - but I see nothing in those specs that won't be far better than what I'm running.  :-)