Thomas Merton Collection
I posted this to the general forum yesterday and was told to post to the suggestions forum, so here it is. I hope we can get enough people on board to show logos the need for more christian mysticism works.
I'd like to suggest as a future publication for Logos the complete works of Thomas Merton - including Thoughts in Solitude, New Seeds of Contemplation, The New Man. I go to his works regularly and believe that many would benefit.
Comments
-
0 -
Michael Cauley said:
I'd like to suggest as a future publication for Logos the complete works of Thomas Merton - including Thoughts in Solitude, New Seeds of Contemplation, The New Man. I go to his works regularly and believe that many would benefit.
I heartily agree. Merton was the first writer to get me into contemplative thinking. I used to run from "devotional" writings. Merton makes the connection between critical thought and spiritual thought. I since have appreciated Spurgeon and C. S. Lewis a lot more.
[Y] Yes to Thomas Merton!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Michael Cauley said:
the complete works of Thomas Merton
I don't know who this author is but curious since Rosie and Matt are excited about him. Mysticism and contemplative prayer ....... hmm, I am not sure. I would like some info on this author.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Ted Hans said:Michael Cauley said:
the complete works of Thomas Merton
I don't know who this author is but curious since Rosie and Matt are excited about him. Mysticism and contemplative prayer ....... hmm, I am not sure. I would some info on this author.
Ted
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
0 -
Todd Phillips said:
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton
Thanks Todd, as I suspected and my saying this is not b/cos he is a Catholic author.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Ted Hans said:
Mysticism and contemplative prayer
If these terms cause any concern, I suggest that you read the first volume of Bernard McGinn's Presence of God: a:History of Western Christian Mysticism - a series that I've already requested in Logos. Just as it is impossible to understand the history of Christianity if you ignore the Orthodox and Eastern churches which for a millennium or more were the center of the Christian world you can't have an understanding of theokogical development without understanding mysticism, including its Protestant manifestations.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Ted Hans said:Todd Phillips said:
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton
Thanks Todd, as I suspected and my saying this is not b/cos he is a Catholic author.
Ted
I can't speak for Rosie but I will credit (and blame) my New Testament professor for allowing and directing me to read outside of the "non-denominational" norms of my Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ Bible college library holdings. My term paper in church history was on Erasmus while everyone else in class did Luther. I was introduced to the NIV and NICOT along with a good dose of Calvin. Even William Barclay and his discounting of the miraculous found room on my shelves. I have been able to glean good things from writers as diverse as Bill Gothard, Bob Thieme, Toyohiko Kagawa, Paul Tillich, David Cloud, Mortimer J. Adler, and Thomas Merton.
Now if they live together in Heaven, it will take take the grace of God to help them get along. [:|]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Just as it is impossible to understand the history of Christianity if you ignore the Orthodox and Eastern churches
Agreed.
MJ. Smith said:I suggest that you read the first volume of Bernard McGinn's Presence of God: a:History of Western Christian Mysticism
Thanks for the suggestion MJ. If McGinn's volume appears in Logos i will buy it because of it's background on historical information.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
MJ. Smith said:Ted Hans said:
Mysticism and contemplative prayer
If these terms cause any concern, I suggest that you read the first volume of Bernard McGinn's Presence of God: a:History of Western Christian Mysticism - a series that I've already requested in Logos. Just as it is impossible to understand the history of Christianity if you ignore the Orthodox and Eastern churches which for a millennium or more were the center of the Christian world you can't have an understanding of theokogical development without understanding mysticism, including its Protestant manifestations.
Yes, I agree with all that was said by MJ. I've got McGinn's in print and would love to have them In Logos.
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
My term paper in church history was on Erasmus while everyone else in class did Luther.
Ah,that explains it my Calminian bro[;)].
Matthew C Jones said:Now if they live together in Heaven, it will take take the grace of God to help them get along.
This brought a smile, kind regards brother.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton
For the sake of thy soul...expose thyself to Thomas Merton.
Seven Story Mountain is his autobiography.
0 -
Ted Hans said:Michael Cauley said:
the complete works of Thomas Merton
I don't know who this author is but curious since Rosie and Matt are excited about him. Mysticism and contemplative prayer ....... hmm, I am not sure. I would like some info on this author.
Ted
Matthew C Jones said:I can't speak for Rosie but I will credit (and blame) my New Testament professor for allowing and directing me to read outside of the...norms....
Well, I can credit my exposure to the study of Spiritual Theology at Regent College under professors such as James M. Houston, Eugene Peterson, Charles Ringma, Gordon Smith, Paul Stevens, Bruce Hindmarsh, and Maxine Hancock. It was from them that I learned not to be afraid of reading Catholic writings, where I heard about things I'd never been exposed to in my evangelical upbringing and early adult life, such as spiritual direction, spiritual formation, and the contemplative life. Spiritual theology is basically the intersection point between the head knowledge of systematic theology and the hands working it out in the world of practical theology. It's all that stuff in between that goes on in the heart: prayer, spiritual growth, meditation, and fundamentally, our relationship with God.
James Houston was the pioneer who reintroduced evangelicals to the spiritual heritage which they'd missed out on in their post-Reformation historical development. Houston is written up in the Biographical Dictionary of Evangelicals (in Logos). He was the founding principal of Regent College, which was the first evangelical college or seminary in North America to establish a professorship in spiritual theology.
Eugene Peterson you've probably heard of as the author of The Message. He has also written many other books, including a recent 5-volume series on Spiritual Theology:
- Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places: A Conversation in Spiritual Theology (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Group, 2005)
- Eat This Book: A Conversation in the Art of Spiritual Reading (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, January 2006)
- The Jesus Way: A Conversation on the Ways That Jesus Is the Way (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Group, 2007)
- Tell It Slant: A Conversation on the Language of Jesus in His Stories and Prayers (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Group, 2008)
- Practice Resurrection: A Conversation on Growing Up in Christ (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Group, 2010)
Peterson also wrote a wonderful little book called Take & Read: Spiritual Reading: An Annotated List, in which he recommends all kinds of great books (I wish they could all be available in Logos). Among them are two by Thomas Merton: Bread in the Wilderness ("Here is the entire practice of praying the Psalms as it was developed and nurtured among the contemplative communities of monks and nuns from early times to the present. But this is not an historical study; it is a lived experience out of the living traditions.") and Spiritual Direction ("Another angle on the subject: working out of his Trappist monastery, Merton assimilates the contemplative traditions and brings them into the American present.").
Charles Ringma, an Australian with Dutch origins, is a contemplative social activist. He's retired now from teaching missional theology at Regent. For him, all contemplation must lead toward action in community; it is not an isolated seeking of a spiritual way disconnected from the needs of the world. He has written a series of devotional books introducing the thoughts of several important writers, combined with his own reflections on the subject matter. He's done one on Dietrich Bonhoeffer; Henri Nouwen; Jacques Ellul; Martin Luther King, Jr.; Mother Teresa; his book on Thomas Merton is called Seek the Silences with Thomas Merton: Reflections on Identity, Community, and Transformative Action. Here's a review of it.
Those three and the others, who had a range of denominational, educational, and international backgrounds, introduced us to Ignatius of Loyola, Teresa of Avila. St. John of the Cross, The Cloud of Unknowing (by an anonymous 14th century English priest or monk), and the mystical strand of Christianity going back to ("Pseudo") Dionysius the Areopagite.
So from all of that I learned not to be afraid of what I'd been nervous about before. I've read quite a bit in this area. I must say I haven't plunged in with both feet and don't think I ever will. I do find much of it quite foreign. The idea that Julian of Norwich asked God to grant her request to experience illness to the brink of death is kind of creepy (what did she do that for? well, she had some amazing spiritual/visionary experiences that came out of it, and she wrote about them in The Showings; but part of me still thinks she was crazy). But I've also learned enough to believe that God sometimes uses those whom the world thinks are off their rockers to speak words of wisdom to the rest of us (if you ever get a chance to see the movie Ordet ["The Word"] by Carl Dreyer, do; it's complex and feels slow at times, but it's awesome and rewards repeated viewing). And sometimes God does take people nearly to the brink in their experiences of his power, wonder, and unimaginable otherness from us. Paul and his cryptic comments about being carried up into the third heaven. Stuff like that. Makes you just be willing to give a bit of credence to some of these people who have said they've experienced ecstasy in a kind of closeness to God that we find it hard to wrap our heads around. Yes, even though God makes himself known through his Word and Christ the Incarnate Word, there is a still a strong element of mystery, of things will will not fully understand until we are with him face to face. Now we see through a glass darkly. Anyway, all of this is what mysticism is attempting to describe, or rather not describe: since its main emphasis is apophatic theology (that is, knowing God through knowing what we cannot know about him: he is infinite, ineffable, incorporeal, etc...). Our knowledge and imaginations are limited (God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts - Isa 55:9; he is able to do more than we ask or even imagine" - Eph 3:20)
That's probably more than you wanted to know, and now that I've completely let the cat out of the bag as to whom and what I've studied and whom I've studied under I might have lost all credibility here... [;)] But someone asked, and I'm just explaining, not trying to persuade or convince, as I find some of this stuff tough to swallow, too. I read Merton's New Seeds of Contemplation, and while I made lots of underlinings of things I found profound and agreed with or felt I wanted to learn to appreciate more, I also wrote "balderdash" or "nonsense" in the margins in a few places. I think it's perfectly healthy and even salutary to have a good vigorous disagreement with an author you're reading. You might learn something from him after all, or you might come away more convinced than ever that he was full of it, but at least you'll know what he was saying, rather than what those who told you to "beware of this guy" were saying.
One of the things that gives evangelicals pause about Merton was his inter-faith dialogue with Buddhists, such as the Vietnamese monk Thích Nhất Hạnh. I've never read any of the latter, and I do see his books in the popular New Age bins at Barnes & Noble and such, so I sometimes wonder whether there's anything I'd find of value in them. But I have learned to reserve judgment until I know more, and to respect people who are considered the wise men (and women) of their own religious traditions. I might someday like to be introduced to some of their thoughts, in small doses that I can digest and bring Scripture to bear on. It's not a strong priority for me right now as there's plenty of other good reading within the Christian fold that I haven't done yet. But I did read the autobiography of the Dalai Lama around when he came on one of his visits to Vancouver, and found him a most congenial and delightful person through his writing. I might not agree with everything he believes about holiness and life and death and ethics and suffering, and about himself even (about who he is as a chosen individual) but I still was able to engage with the history of his people's struggle for their freedom of religion, and the peace-loving nature of their faith. I would want to hope and trust that the yearnings they have within them which they try to fulfill within their own faith tradition are the same yearnings that draw people ultimately to Christ, the yearnings that come from being made in the image of God, as all humans are.
Matthew C Jones said:Now if they live together in Heaven, it will take take the grace of God to help them get along.
Ha! Good thought. Sometimes I think some of these people would get along better with each other than we Christians get along with others within our fold but in a different "tribe." [:)]
0 -
I'm not advocating the doctrines or theologies of anyone mentioned in this whole thread. Although I have probably learned something from each one of them. I am not even saying everyone will benefit from reading Thomas Merton. And I hope I don't come across as condescending towards anyone who refuses to ingest a wide variety of reading. Entertaining wrong thinking can be dangerous.
Rosie Perera said:I also wrote "balderdash" or "nonsense" in the margins in a few places.
Like Rosie says, "balderdash"! As much as I have piled on Peterson for The Message, I have not hidden that resource from my Logos library (and won't.) I think it has value and influence in the church today. I was very leery of Robert Weber until I actually read some of what he wrote:
Ancient-Future Collection (4 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/4460 &
The Complete Library of Christian Worship (8 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/2228Now you can say, "Therein lies the danger of reading these foolish fellows!" But I can assure you they have not swayed me entirely towards their presentations. They only motivate me to re-examine the issue in light of scripture. If it contradicts the Bible, I reject it. Buzzwords like "spiritual formation", "quest for the historical Jesus", and "lifestyle evangelism" have all bristled the hair on the back of my neck when I first encountered them. I have no difficulty with Merton's inter-faith dialogue because Paul had a similar encounter on Mars Hill. If our purpose in an encounter is evangelistic, we need to meet them where they are. It helps to know where they are.
"Balderdash!" --- I like the sound of that. Think I will use it in conversation 3x before dinner. [;)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Rosie Perera said:
I do see his books in the popular New Age bins at Barnes & Noble and such, so I sometimes wonder whether there's anything I'd find of value in them.
This is an unfortunate development for Thích Nhất Hạnh. He generally is not "new age" although I've not read his later works. In Western China the Nestorian Christians and the Chan Buddhists had a very productive interplay to the philosophical advantage of both sides. (Tibetan Buddhism appears to have been more influenced by Islam rather than Christianity ... but the later is not was well studied so who knows?) As for the interrelationship between Buddhism and Christianity across time check out Barlaam and Josaphat in wikipedia ...
(Yes, I'm a Catholic with a graduate degree in Buddhist studies ...)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Rosie Perera said:
One of the things that gives evangelicals pause about Merton was his inter-faith dialogue with Buddhists, such as the Vietnamese monk Thích Nhất Hạnh. I've never read any of the latter, and I do see his books in the popular New Age bins at Barnes & Noble and such, so I sometimes wonder whether there's anything I'd find of value in them. But I have learned to reserve judgment until I know more, and to respect people who are considered the wise men (and women) of their own religious traditions. I might someday like to be introduced to some of their thoughts, in small doses that I can digest and bring Scripture to bear on. It's not a strong priority for me right now as there's plenty of other good reading within the Christian fold that I haven't done yet. But I did read the autobiography of the Dalai Lama around when he came on one of his visits to Vancouver, and found him a most congenial and delightful person through his writing. I might not agree with everything he believes about holiness and life and death and ethics and suffering, and about himself even (about who he is as a chosen individual) but I still was able to engage with the history of his people's struggle for their freedom of religion, and the peace-loving nature of their faith. I would want to hope and trust that the yearnings they have within them which they try to fulfill within their own faith tradition are the same yearnings that draw people ultimately to Christ, the yearnings that come from being made in the image of God, as all humans are.
Thanks Rosie for your post, I appreciate you engaging with me. I must leave this conversation here as I do not want to inadvertently offend anyone. I am already guilty of hijacking this thread. Blessings.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
You are very gracious, and I hope I do not come across as condescending towards those who want to read such material.Matthew C Jones said:I'm not advocating the doctrines or theologies of anyone mentioned in this whole thread. Although I have probably learned something from each one of them. I am not even saying everyone will benefit from reading Thomas Merton. And I hope I don't come across as condescending towards anyone who refuses to ingest a wide variety of reading
Matthew C Jones said:Entertaining wrong thinking can be dangerous.
Matthew C Jones said:I have no difficulty with Merton's inter-faith dialogue because Paul had a similar encounter on Mars Hill. If our purpose in an encounter is evangelistic, we need to meet them where they are. It helps to know where they are.
Slow down brother Matt. You can hardly compare this with what Paul was doing in Mars Hill. The Apostle was greatly distressed! Ted
"At the end of 1968, the new abbot, the Reverend Flavian Burns, allowed
him the freedom to undertake a tour of Asia, during which he met the Dalai Lama in India on three occasions, and also the Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen master, Chatral Rinpoche, followed by a solitary retreat near Darjeeling.
Then in what was to be his final letter he noted, "In my contacts with
these new friends, I also feel a consolation in my own faith in Christ
and in his dwelling presence. I hope and believe he may be present in
the hearts of all of us.".[23] He also made a visit to Polonnaruwa (in what was then Ceylon), where he had a religious experience while viewing enormous statues of the Buddha. There is speculation that Merton wished to remain in Asia as a hermit. It is also said[who?] that Merton had planned to visit Cid Corman in Kyoto, Japan but never achieved that goal.""Merton was first exposed to and became interested in Eastern religions when he read Aldous Huxley’s Ends and Means in 1937, the year before his conversion to Catholicism.[27] Throughout his life, he studied Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Jainism and Sufism in addition to his academic and monastic studies.[28]
Merton was not interested in what these traditions had to offer as
doctrines and institutions, but deeply interested in what each said of
the depth of human experience. This is not to say that Merton believed
that these religions did not have valuable rituals or practices for him
and other Christians, but that, doctrinally, Merton was so committed to Christianity
and he felt that practitioners of other faiths were so committed to
their own doctrines that any discussion of doctrine would be useless for
all involved.He believed that for the most part, Christianity had forsaken its mystical tradition in favor of Cartesian
emphasis on “the reification of concepts, idolization of the reflexive
consciousness, flight from being into verbalism, mathematics, and
rationalization."[29]
Eastern traditions, for Merton, were mostly untainted by this type of
thinking and thus had much to offer in terms of how to think of and
understand oneself.Merton was perhaps most interested in — and, of all of the Eastern traditions, wrote the most about — Zen. Having studied the Desert Fathers
and other Christian mystics as part of his monastic vocation, Merton
had a deep understanding of what it was those men sought and experienced
in their seeking. He found many parallels between the language of these
Christian mystics and the language of Zen philosophy.[30]In 1959, Merton began a dialogue with D.T. Suzuki which was published in Merton’s Zen and the Birds of Appetite as “Wisdom in Emptiness”. This dialogue began with the completion of Merton’s The Wisdom of the Desert.
Merton sent a copy to Suzuki with the hope that he would comment on
Merton’s view that the Desert Fathers and the early Zen masters had
similar experiences. Nearly ten years later, when Zen and the Birds of Appetite
was published, Merton wrote in his postface that “any attempt to handle
Zen in theological language is bound to miss the point”, calling his
final statements “an example of how not to approach Zen.”[31]
Merton struggled to reconcile the Western and Christian impulse to
catalog and put into words every experience with the ideas of Christian apophatic theology and the unspeakable nature of the Zen experience.In keeping with Merton’s idea that non-Christian faiths had much to
offer Christianity in terms of experience and perspective and little or
nothing in terms of doctrine, Merton distinguished between Zen Buddhism,
an expression of history and culture, and Zen.[30] What Merton meant by Zen Buddhism was the religion that began in China
and spread to Japan as well as the rituals and institutions that
accompanied it. By Zen, Merton meant something not bound by culture,
religion or belief. In this capacity, Merton was influenced by the book Zen Catholicism.[32]
With this idea in mind, Merton’s later writings about Zen may be
understood to be coming more and more from within an evolving and
broadening tradition of Zen which is not particularly Buddhist but
informed by Merton’s monastic training within the Christian tradition.[33]"Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
This is an unfortunate development for Thích Nhất Hạnh. He generally is not "new age" although I've not read his later works. In Western China the Nestorian Christians and the Chan Buddhists had a very productive interplay to the philosophical advantage of both sides. (Tibetan Buddhism appears to have been more influenced by Islam rather than Christianity ... but the later is not was well studied so who knows?) As for the interrelationship between Buddhism and Christianity across time check out Barlaam and Josaphat in wikipedia ...
(Yes, I'm a Catholic with a graduate degree in Buddhist studies ...)
My apologies MJ, if I have offended you by asking for info on Merton B/cos that was not my intention. My curiosity was aroused by Rosie and Matt's excitement about this author. I just do not want you to think I was in any way slighting you or taking a swipe at you. Sorry if my post came across that way.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
TED! Where did you quote your Merton biographical info from? I was enlightened (so to speak . . . ) by that. Not sure what your point was--if you had one. But thanks. I really don't know Merton that well, but have read some of his stuff as part of a pastor's retreat here stateside.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Dan DeVilder said:
Where did you quote your Merton biographical info from?
Hi Dan,
I followed Ted's links and it took me to the Wiki of Thomas Merton. Very helpful collection of information. God Bless!
0 -
I really was not trying to make a point on this thread and yes I respect the wishes of those who want to have Merton in their Logos library. I asked for info on Merton and Todd provided a link to Wikipedia.Dan DeVilder said:Not sure what your point was--if you had one.
As for the quote, it was in response to Matt seemly suggestion that what Merton was doing with his involvement in Eastern thought/dialogue was similar to Paul on Mars Hill but the evidence suggest otherwise.
I really must bow out at this point, I am in danger of being misunderstood and this thread degenerating into controversy. The potential of offending other users of the forum is getting greater with my continued conversation on this thread. After all, a Logos customer made a request for Merton to be available and so far this thread has been hijacked by my curiosity.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Ted Hans said:
I really was not trying to make a point on this thread and yes I respect the wishes of those who want to have Merton in their Logos library. I asked for info on Merton and Todd provided a link to Wikipedia.Dan DeVilder said:Not sure what your point was--if you had one.
As for the quote, it was in response to Matt seemly suggestion that what Merton was doing with his involvement in Eastern thought/dialogue was similar to Paul on Mars Hill but the evidence suggest otherwise.
I really must bow out at this point, I am in danger of being misunderstood and this thread degenerating into controversy. The potential of offending other users of the forum is getting greater with my continued conversation on this thread. After all, a Logos customer made a request for Merton to be available and so far this thread has been hijacked by my curiosity.
Ted.
lol, Ted, it's all good. I understood your point about Mars Hill (and yes, that is starting to walk the Logos Rules gauntlet, lol) and basically agreed. The article went beyond that, though. I really did find it interesting. Thanks.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Joan Korte said:Dan DeVilder said:
Where did you quote your Merton biographical info from?
Hi Dan,
I followed Ted's links and it took me to the Wiki of Thomas Merton. Very helpful collection of information. God Bless!
HEY Joan!!! Good to hear from you. See you flyin' the colors. Good luck tonight! (Spartans vs. Catholics? [:P] for all you non-middle Americans, Michigan State University "Spartans" are playing the Notre Dame "Fighting Irish" tonight in college football).
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Ted Hans said:
I hope I do not come across as condescending towards those who want to read such material.
Not at all. Your biographical post is a very good synopsis of Merton's life. It is unusual to encapsulate such an individual so well because his perspectives evolved over the course of his life. (Isn't that what happens to many of us?)
Ted Hans said:Slow down brother Matt. You can hardly compare this with what Paul was doing in Mars Hill. The Apostle was greatly distressed!
You are right! I wasn't comparing Merton to Paul's motives at Mars Hill, just his modus operandi. Paul frequently met people where they were (He learned that method from Jesus.) Without going theological, I am reminded of Paul circumcising Timothy, fomenting discord between the Pharisees & Sadducees, and shaving his head while taking a vow. All of which showed keen awareness of where people stood on issues and taking advantage of that knowledge.
My purpose in reading Merton's works is probably different than Merton's purpose in writing them. I would not embrace Merton as the final determinate of truth but I would employ some of his strategies to understand how others have come to terms with their mortality and spirituality. I would wager Thomas Merton did not write to indoctrinate but to document his personal journey.We will all stand with better vision before God's throne. But for now....... βλεπομεν γαρ αρτι δι εσοπτρου εν αινιγματι (For now we see through a glass, darkly) 1 Corinthians 13:12
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Ted Hans said:
I just do not want you to think I was in any way slighting you or taking a swipe at you. Sorry if my post came across that way.
I didn't take any offense - my post was with regards to Rosie's impression of Thích Nhất Hạnh. I know why some marketing of his works would reasonably raise doubts and wanted to reassure her that it was marketing.
Because Merton was a bestseller in the 50's and a celebrity in the 60's I forget not everyone recognizes his name. But time and cultural icons change, don't they? Believe me, many of the names mentioned on the forums mean nothing to me. When I "check them out" some make positive impressions, some don't ... one recently made me want to rank his book with negative stars[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
I didn't take any offense - my post was with regards to Rosie's impression of Thích Nhất Hạnh. I know why some marketing of his works would reasonable raise doubts and wanted to reassure her that it was marketing.
It also might have been my ignorance compounded with my bad memory. I used to pretty much lump any Eastern religions together with "New Age" in my mind because I'd been taught to be suspicious of it all. I used to read books which told me that "New Agers" were interested in blending an eclectic mix of spiritual beliefs and practices, including Eastern religions, all of which were "dangerous." So perhaps I just assumed that suburban white people shopping in American bookstore chains for books by Thích Nhất Hạnh were New Agers, without really knowing what on earth he was all about. I admit to having had great ignorance in my earlier days. Fortunately, I'm completely beyond that... [;)] Now at least I know that I'm ignorant. Back then I was ignorant but didn't know I was.
0 -
Rosie Perera said:
I'm completely beyond that...
Now at least I know that I'm ignorant. Back then I was ignorant but didn't know I was.In that case, you are in good company. My recollection is that Socrates (as depicted by Plato) professed to know nothing. Of course, there is a bit of philosophy involved there in distinguishing "appearance" from the "really real" (the realm of ideas).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Rosie Perera said:
I used to pretty much lump any Eastern religions together with "New Age" in my mind because I'd been taught to be suspicious of it all.
WARNING: Following verges on theology but ... I'll truly try to watch the boundaries.
In Beloit College I was a philosophy major - one of the three professors was a mathematician by training, and Eastern philosophy specialist by interest. I spent the late 60's and early 70's in San Francisco in an eclectic religious social circle with Christian seminarians, Buddhist monks, Hindu gurus, even a Zorastrian teacher and a few Medieval magic specialists. "Everyone" was familiar with Alan Watts, Thomas Merton, Julian of Norwich, the Philocalia, the 5th Patriarch (Chan Chinese Buddhist), the Kabbalah, Hafiz, Rumi, Sri Ramana Marashi ... Apologetics always started with "does God exist?" "what is God?" ... with the common experience of humanity across all these threads as the "evidence for God". After the recognition of the commonality one began to sort out the apologetics to find the path to God. But there was always an openness to learn from others - even those who you disagreed with strongly. It seemed as natural as improving your tennis game by a sprinter pointing out a better way to handle turns.
You can imagine my confusion last year when I was introduced to presuppositional apologetics in these forums ... It had never occurred to me that one ever started after the question of God, the nature of the universe and of human understanding. The interfaith conversation, especially the Catholic-Buddhist dialogue, usually begins with the common elements of the human experience of God. That provides the basis for evangelization. That is the context from which you need to read the extract of Merton's biography. You also need to see Merton as one of several individuals of his era evolved in the interfaith conversations that blossomed two decades later. These "early adopters" including American, Japanese, British, German, French and South Asians ... at least that's what comes to mind. The current locus of this interfaith conversation is writing classes especially poetry and short stories. with a distinct Judaism/Buddhism leaning.
The above is a historical not a theological attempt to put Merton's biography in context.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Why don't add one more person "Henry Nouwen"?
0 -
Please help me? I do not understand the reason anyone would desire to expose themselves to learn this type of "SPIRITUALISM" as compared to getting a good comparative religion book.
0 -
Timothy Brown said:
Please help me? I do not understand the reason anyone would desire to expose themselves to learn this type of "SPIRITUALISM" as compared to getting a good comparative religion book.
There are many different people who use Logos, from many different points along the theological spectrum. It might surprise you to find that some of them might want to read the original writings of some whose beliefs differ from their own rather than reading a comparative religion book to find out about those beliefs. Or indeed, there might even be people on these forums who already share the beliefs of someone like Merton and would not understand your categorization of his work as something to be avoided. We've found, from experience, that it doesn't help to engage in discussions of what is or isn't appropriate material to have in Logos format. It turns into a theological argument fairly quickly. So it's best to let Logos decide whether they want to carry it or not. Even if they do decide to carry it, people who don't want to read it need not expose themselves to it, and others can choose to without feeling criticized. Logos sells the Qur'an, for example. Even if some would not want to be exposed to the teachings of Islam without a Christian spin on it, others can study it from "the horse's mouth" as it were.
0 -
Timothy Brown said:
Please help me? I do not understand the reason anyone would desire to expose themselves to learn this type of "SPIRITUALISM" as compared to getting a good comparative religion book.
Hi Timothy and welcome to the forums.
Without getting into the nitty-gritty of specific theological issues and differences (since we are supposed to avoid that) I'd like to share an enlightening quote from another forum poster. I will generalize it to get the heart of the quote across without the distraction of theological stances. The quote goes something like this:
"If blank s believed everything other people purport them to believe, I would not be one of them either!."
(fill in the blank with your own theological group)
The truth behind this statement is many times the critiques of the critics often misrepresent the actual beliefs & practices of the subjects. I have walked in opposing sides of many theological camps and the one thing they have in common is their ability to misunderstand or blatantly misrepresent their opponent's opinions.
Many do not want to read opposing arguments when surveying a subject. Many people do want to. Logos provides a wider variety of Bible study resources than any individual could possibly exhaust. But I would wager every resource they publish is used by somebody, somewhere. Merton's works will be read by many and for differing reasons.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Timothy Brown said:
I do not understand the reason anyone would desire to expose themselves to learn this type of "SPIRITUALISM" as compared to getting a good comparative religion book.
Merton and Nouwen are not comparative religion although they have some interest in particular aspects of interfaith conversations. They are best understood through the reading of Eastern and Orthodox church history and theology and particular strains of Western theology. Bernard McGinn is the major name in tracing the history of these Western strains. I'm not sure what definition you are using for "spiritualism" which I think of as a late 1800's movement; I don't know a meaning of "spiritualism" that would apply to either of these authors.
If you are referring to the various authors I mentioned in my previous post, yes they would be an excellent start for comparative religion study. My intent, however, was not to recommend them for Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0
