The Future of Logos 4
Comments
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Without re-reading this thread (I'm not in the mood bleh) I don't think it was a comment from you Russ. Bob mentioned it, and I read another thread somewhere on here today that point blank did call Bob's character in question (no i don't remember who the poster is, I don't feel like looking it up). After reading that, and then seeing Bob's comment - I had to chime in on agreement.Russ White said:I apologize if any of my statements have been taken in this way.
FWIW I hope I've never done that. I'm a moderate security nut myself - so a comment of that sort would be out of character for me, not that a google search wouldn't show my lose myself once in a while. [*-)]Russ White said:OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Thomas Black said:
FWIW I hope I've never done that. I'm a moderate security nut myself - so a comment of that sort would be out of character for me, not that a google search wouldn't show my lose myself once in a while.Russ White said:OTOH, I notice that it's perfectly fine on these forums to belittle the privacy concerns of users.
Wasn't directed at you... :-) Anyone who's ever worked on an HR or government system ends up being at least a moderate security nut before it's over with. It only takes seeing one person's life ruined for leaked data before you realize just how bad things can get --as the Scriptures say, a good name is to be desired above just about everything else...
:-)
Russ
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Mark Barnes said:Andy Bell said:
Maybe the Facebook analogy is not a 100% reflection of the situation, but I think the point is about being able to be in control of things. For me, the deal breaker is that Notes etc are stored unencrypted, which means that anyone with access to the server (such as administrators) who is curious can look at my data without my permission.
So you're confident that no Facebook employees can access your personal data? I'm not. Certainly that's not true at Google. (That link will make you even more certain of the need, but my point is only that Logos' policy is similar to other major companies).
And that's why I only do minimal stuff with Facebook, don't keep my blog on a Google server, don't use gmail except when necessary, and don't use google search. Facebook isn't a perfect analogy, but I will go farther than the "email is a postcard" example. I consider just about anything stored on a database on the web just like a postcard.
In theory, the only people who can read a postcard are those who happen to live near you (on the same network as you are), have access to the server (the postal employees in the sorting room), and the mailman (the service provider). If you'd trust writing your SSN on a postcard and sending it, without an envelope, then you should trust putting your SSN, or any other private data, on a server in an unencrypted format. Precisely the same people are theoretically able to see it in both cases.
And the same is true of your notes in Logos today --it's just like putting your thoughts about passages, etc, all your research and time and effort, on a postcard and sending it through the mail on a postcard. Would you do that with the research for your doctoral thesis, or a new book you're working on (especially if you're someone who makes a living by writing)? You can trust the people who work at the post office, right?
:-)
Russ
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Nope, won't work --so I deleted the post. Need to do some brainstorming on how to make this easy for Logos, but, really, this thread has devolved back to privacy --not where I wanted to go.
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
And the same is true of your notes in Logos
today --it's just like putting your thoughts about passages, etc, all
your research and time and effort, on a postcard and sending it through
the mail on a postcard. Would you do that with the research for your
doctoral thesis, or a new book you're working on (especially if you're
someone who makes a living by writing)? You can trust the people
who work at the post office, right?The research for my doctoral thesis is currently regularly emailed to my supervisor (and I don't know a single doctoral student who uses PGP to email their
supervisor). He no doubt prints it out, leaves it in his office without always locking his door, probably passes occasional copies to colleagues for their comments, and likely disposes of it without putting it through an industrial grade shredder.I trust him, his colleages and his cleaner. I trust Logos employees too - though if someone gets awarded a PhD from West Washington University for a thesis on The Gift of Prophecy, you will let me know, won't you ;-)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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JH said:
This is not trivial - good security is very hard to get right. Just calling a series of encryption algorithms does not a secure system make. There is a fundamental misunderstanding out there that wrapping some encryption around data will fix the "privacy problem". Cryptography can be effective for some things, but it isn't a cure-all. Security in the "cloud" is still a very active research area and there are many unknowns on which solutions are feasible or correct.
For what it's worth, all I said was that implementing encryption is trivial. I did not say that security was trivial. The context of this discussion is how Logos uses the cloud - they use (I think) Amazon's cloud services and have little or no input into 'cloud security'. What they can do is add a layer of security by encrypting the data.
If I had my personal notes stored in a cloud and I heard that it had suffered a security breach I would be far happier knowing it was 256 bit encrypted with a 20 character password than if it were unencrypted. I'm sure you would too, especially if there were confidential things stored in those notes.
Andy
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Andy Bell said:
they use (I think) Amazon's cloud services and have little or no input into 'cloud security'.
They use Amazon for serving static files (i.e. resource downloads), but (we think) their own servers for user data.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Quoting Bob P:
Setting up a new machine to use Logos 3 used to be a nightmare of
finding and moving files. Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything
shows up.I, for one....feel the same. I have said "ahh...nice" more than once after a full reformat....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Andy Bell said:
Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
One practical aspect that I've not seen raised: the resource cost of encrypting and decrypting. Enough people have performance issues already that it would take very solid statistics to convince me that one could encrypt and stay within performance goals. I'm quite willing to let Logos make that call because I don't have sufficient information to make a good design decision.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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JH said:
This is not trivial - good security is very hard to get right. Just calling a series of encryption algorithms does not a secure system make. There is a fundamental misunderstanding out there that wrapping some encryption around data will fix the "privacy problem". Cryptography can be effective for some things, but it isn't a cure-all. Security in the "cloud" is still a very active research area and there are many unknowns on which solutions are feasible or correct.
Thank you for pointing this aspect out.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
The research for my doctoral thesis is currently regularly emailed to my supervisor
The one case I know of a professor being fired for using their student's work without attribution was towards the end of the typewriter era. If anything, timestamped email provides the student with greater safety.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
Setting up a new machine to use Logos 3 used to be a nightmare of finding and moving files. Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything shows up. And I can also read it on my iPhone and iPad. I love that!
I'm planning on installing Logos today. Used to be something I would dread and plan a whole afternoon for. Now, install and let the internet do the rest. For that I am extremely grateful.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Going through sync is required in order for Logos 4 to "be Logos 4" -- i.e. "to be a tool that lets you access your books and data anywhere."
I don't have an issue with Logos 4 being Logos 4. But we will have to disagree on your choice in not giving users a personal choice in opting out on whether things like prayer lists or notes are uploaded to a Logos server. Right now this is its not a personal concern I believe the issue is bigger than me and so believe those who do have a concern should have that choice. (Thinking about an issue in light of another persons interests must be a strange concept to some given their responses to those who have said they'd like the option.)
Bob Pritchett said:Biblia.com is not intended as a replacement for Logos 4.
Thank you for clarifying this point.
Bob Pritchett said:Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature, or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a conversation about the book with its author or other readers.
I am personally comfortable with the current set-up of Logos 4 as I said earlier but I have no interest your vision of tomorrow's "power of synchronisation". So I have just deleted all my notes and prayer lists from Logos 4 and will no longer be using these features of the software. I would much rather choose what, where, when and how of what I share of my personal data in a 'social network' as I now do with things like Facebook. You have made it clear its all or nothing so for me form now on its nothing in terms of notes and prayer lists. So I guess the good news for you Bob is I never going to raise notes as an issue again.
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Mark Barnes said:
How does the Facebook analogy help? Logos doesn't share any of your data, unless you make public edits to topics (or in L3 explicitly publish sermons). The issue with Logos is secure storage, not sharing.
Given Bob's following comments, particularly in relation to Kindle, for me I'm not interested in collaboratively sharing everything and anything with the world at large, I see this statement of the future very different to just secure storage. That's fine Logos is making a business model decision which does not work for me. So from this point forward I'll begin working towards a model that works for my needs in terms of notes, that is outside of Logos. Personally, for me I have no gripes with Logos about their choice and would only say what I already have: I believe it is wrong not to have a selective opt out option. If they ever change that choice I'll reconsider using Logos once again using Logos notes.
Bob Pritchett said:Tomorrow's "power of synchronization" is that you can share your notes
with your Bible study group, or classmates, or students, or collaborate
with others around the world to collaboratively highlight all the
instances of X, Y, or Z in the Bible and all the secondary literature,
or (as on Amazon's Kindle) choose to see the most commonly highlighted
phrases in the book you're reading, and participate -- inline -- in a
conversation about the book with its author or other readers.0 -
Andrew McKenzie said:
I would much rather choose what, where, when and how of what I share of my personal data in a 'social network' as I now do with things like Facebook.
I'm surprised you expose yourself via Facebook; which is far more amenable to external interference (even if restricted to information gathering) than my documents on Logos' servers! I'm very conservative about information and transactions I conduct on the Internet eg.
- you won't get me on Facebook or Twitter
- my Notes and Clippings would only interest a bible student!
- I use a password generator and password length to ensure that a serious attempt is required to break it
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:Andrew McKenzie said:
I would much rather choose what, where, when and how of what I share of my personal data in a 'social network' as I now do with things like Facebook.
I'm surprised you expose yourself via Facebook; which is far more amenable to external interference (even if restricted to information gathering) than my documents on Logos' servers! I'm very conservative about information and transactions I conduct on the Internet eg.
- you won't get me on Facebook or Twitter
- my Notes and Clippings would only interest a bible student!
- I use a password generator and password length to ensure that a serious attempt is required to break it
Personally I don't think my notes or clippings would really interest anyone and its not about being concerned about what others might read or see but about choice which Logos believes the creator of the data only deserves if they make the right to share it all.
I am not suggesting Facebook is more secure than a Logos server, and as I have said my study notes and my life on the whole, would be un-interesting to the world at large and so this is not personally about just security but about choice which Logos has seems to have detrmine a user should have only an all or nothing choice and nothing in between.
But on Facebook I do have choices, about both with whom and what I share. Other than my name and photo, nothing is visible if I haven't given you approval. Within my account I work lists to determine who get to see what and so can control things on a more detailed level, but I use it mostly so not to bore people with personal interests I know they just dont' want to hear about or is not relevant because they are not part of the group of people I am addressing. For instance things about Logos Bible Software I will only send to people I have on a list whom I know use the software or are truly interested in using technology for bible study. For instance people on my approved list who aren't Christian's probably dont' want to hear about Logos Bible Software so I have a list to control whom I share my posts about Logos.
Is is perfectly secure and safe - of course not, but not is a Logos server. If someone is relying sole upon it for their backup then there's a big whole in their backup regime
Edit Note: I was speaking with a friend at church today who has twitter account with is completely closed and he doesn't subscribe to anyone else's account, and simply uses it to create a To Do List he can access anywhere.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Now, I install Logos 4, log in, and everything shows up. And I can also read it on my iPhone and iPad. I love that!
I really enjoy, and now would greatly miss, the power of the local app with the cloud holding my information to make moving between computers and locations easy. Bravo on that!
But what I quoted above that you said Bob, that is not our experience entirely!
Logos does NOT provide all resources. It may provide different versions of resources. And if it's a resource I have installed on another computer from CD, Logos may not know about it and hence will not install it on a new computer. At that point, the tools are woefully inadequate to figure out what resources are old or outdated. This also makes backup locally a requirement locally, because if I lose those resources Logos can't replace them like it can all the others. Backup too then is difficult for some users wading through hidden folders, no tools in the program to provide the backup, etc. etc.
Doesn't a new resource I install from CD have to move UP to the cloud if Logos doesn't have it?
A cloud solution for resource does not work if it only provides 90% of the resources with no easy tools to reconcile or eliminate the gap moving forward. What has been personally frustrating to me is not that this problem still exists, as the technology is new, but that the problem is really not acknowledged at all. I would be willing to bet that quite a few Logos users, especially if they have older resources or Galaxie resources, have different installations of resources on multiple computers (if they use multiple computers), and don't even realize it. Until this all at least gets outlined as to a plan to correct, I think the cloud solution is very suspect because I am not sure this is even in the cards to make it 100% reliable.
Just my .02 - love the product otherwise! But I make my own backups and check file versions between computers constantly ;-)
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Andrew I cannot speak for Logos, but somehow I doubt you will have to share everything with everyone. In L3 we could choose to share notes with the community.Andrew McKenzie said:Given Bob's following comments, particularly in relation to Kindle, for me I'm not interested in collaboratively sharing everything and anything with the world at large,
I read Bob to say that I can share some of my notes with everyone by placing it on their servers, or share some with a selected group of people.
Bob wrote: "...and will probably add either an encrypting password or "by document type" sync disabling in the future..."
@ Mark Barnes: I am interested in the topic of your dissertation. Please contact me via email: logosforum at the mail that is always hot.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Dominick Sela said:
Until this all at least gets outlined as to a plan to correct, I think the cloud solution is very suspect because I am not sure this is even in the cards to make it 100% reliable.
I'm sure that this problem will be fixed but because it is a matter of compiling a complete resource list of 3rd party resources, its a very different problem. If I were Bob, it wouldn't come to my mind in regards to the cloud.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If Logos is sending the data using HTTPS (an encrypted protocol) then there already is some encryption taking place. Ironically, the receiving cloud server decrypts the data before storing it :-(MJ. Smith said:Andy Bell said:Top quality encryption is almost trivial to implement (I have several 'components' in my software toolkit that implement it with just 2 'function calls' - one to encrypt and one to decrypt).
One practical aspect that I've not seen raised: the resource cost of encrypting and decrypting. Enough people have performance issues already that it would take very solid statistics to convince me that one could encrypt and stay within performance goals. I'm quite willing to let Logos make that call because I don't have sufficient information to make a good design decision.
My experience with encryption is that most algorithms perform well - but it does depend on the algorithm and the size of the data being encrypted. Optional encryption would allow those with low powered machines to choose between speed and security.
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Mark Barnes said:
Thanks for the clarification.
I will reiterate that the actual encryption of data is a trivial process. Obviously the whole infrastructure of network storage, along with security and taking precautions against malicious attacks is anything but trivial. Having encrypted data stored on the server doesn't increase server's inherent security, but it does provide a decent insurance policy against your data being read in the event of a security breach.
As an example - if I store a stack of personal data on a USB drive and then lose it I would be a very worried man. But if I had encrypted it using an industrial strength algorithm and a long password that could not be guessed or cracked using a 'dictionary attack' then I would be far less worried. Statistically, trying to brute force crack a 20 character password will take so long that I would not be concerned that someone would manage it - not in my, my children's and my grandchildren's lifetime anyway. I'm less likely to worry about it when I'm dead[;)]
I know that Logos advise us not to use notes/prayer lists for private things, but that's a huge limitation AND you have to read the licence agreement to receive that advice. If you just read the website blurb: "Safe and secure. You can have the peace of mind that all your documents—notes, clippings, and custom guides—are safely backed up on our servers" you wont get the impression that 'safe' only means 'backed up' and excludes 'secure'. I know you can, and some will, argue that the user is responsible for reading the Licence Agreement but I, personally, don't think this is sufficient. Many users don't read them.
Bible Study and, especially, Prayers are personal and if I am researching something to help someone (or myself) with an embarrassing problem then I would have to remember not to use Logos' notes in this instance.
I, therefore, am writing my own Logos4-COM-API linked notes system and I may decide to save those notes to a database on a webserver that I have. Will I encrypt those notes? Of course. That's a given.
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Andy Bell said:
If Logos is sending the data using HTTPS (an encrypted protocol) then there already is some encryption taking place. Ironically, the receiving cloud server decrypts the data before storing it :-(
We don't actually know that, we're only assuming that. Actually it is probable that the data IS encrypted (as the server it is stored on is Windows 2008, which has a relatively easy-to-use file system encryption service). The point is that it is not encrypted with OUR password, and therefore can be read by Logos employees who have authorised access to the server.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Lynden Williams said:
Andrew I cannot speak for Logos, but somehow I doubt you will have to share everything with everyone. In L3 we could choose to share notes with the community.Andrew McKenzie said:Given Bob's following comments, particularly in relation to Kindle, for me I'm not interested in collaboratively sharing everything and anything with the world at large,
I am making no statement about how this 'social networking' use of our personal user documents is going to work and what choices we will have on control over our own user content.
But for me, the way I want to work with the software, and what I believe it appropriate use of my personally created content, I'm not willing to take the risk of building up notes or prayer lists in software, have them on a server in Logos for backup (if that's all that was ever going to happen , then I'm fine with that ) and then find at some point in the future they are then put out there on the network without my choosing. At this point Bob has not said this will happen, but I simply don't like where this is been taken and so and going to move to other options from this point forward that give me greater control over my content. I will continue to use Logos 4, just not for notes or prayer lists.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
But for me, the way I want to work with the software, and what I believe it appropriate use of my personally created content, I'm not willing to take the risk of building up notes or prayer lists in software, have them on a server in Logos for backup (if that's all that was ever going to happen , then I'm fine with that ) and then find at some point in the future they are then put out there on the network without my choosing
I cannot speak authoritatively for Logos, but I am 100% sure Logos will not publish users' data without explicit permission. Sharing/publishing data will happen in the future, but there is no way that Logos intend to share things without your permission. In L3, if you had the sermon add-in, you could choose to share your sermon on sermons.logos.com, but there was a tick-box on every sermon to enable this.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Andrew McKenzie said:
But for me, the way I want to work with the software, and what I believe it appropriate use of my personally created content, I'm not willing to take the risk of building up notes or prayer lists in software, have them on a server in Logos for backup (if that's all that was ever going to happen , then I'm fine with that ) and then find at some point in the future they are then put out there on the network without my choosing
Andrew, there is a vast difference between syncing indiscriminately and publicly publishing indiscriminately. Though I cannot speak for Logos, I think it is a huge overreaction to think that syncing means publishing. Your stuff won't just start appearing on the web. Bob specifically said that sharing would be with permissions
I am personally extremely excited for (and have requested many times) sharing of documents. Being able to create documents in Logos (like study guides) and share them with a smallgroup or a church have lots of possibilities, and will introduce many to Logos. But the fact that they will let us share documents (with permissions) does not mean that your entire library is at risk.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob Hantla said:Mark Barnes said:Andrew McKenzie said:
But for me, the way I want to work with the software, and what I believe it appropriate use of my personally created content, I'm not willing to take the risk of building up notes or prayer lists in software, have them on a server in Logos for backup (if that's all that was ever going to happen , then I'm fine with that ) and then find at some point in the future they are then put out there on the network without my choosing
Andrew, there is a vast difference between syncing indiscriminately and publicly publishing indiscriminately. Though I cannot speak for Logos, I think it is a huge overreaction to think that syncing means publishing. Your stuff won't just start appearing on the web. Bob specifically said that sharing would be with permissions
I am personally extremely excited for (and have requested many times) sharing of documents. Being able to create documents in Logos (like study guides) and share them with a smallgroup or a church have lots of possibilities, and will introduce many to Logos. But the fact that they will let us share documents (with permissions) does not mean that your entire library is at risk.
Mark and Jacob I appreciate your response to make sure I understood what Bob said and I do. Just because you dont understand the choice doesn't make it an over-reaction, just puts it at the opposite end of the scale to where you are on the feature. And I respect some people will love this. It's not for me. Its not what I want out of my Bible Study Software, they are going directions that just aren't for me so I am making a decision today that takes Logos completely out of the picture on these issues for me tomorrow.
I have a single desktop, and currently don't own a mobile device on which I could access my Logos library, and when I do, cause someday I'll have to get a new phone, then I'd only want it for reading anyway. A laptop sounds like a nice idea, but since I really don't travel owing one is something I can't justify for my situation. So I pretty much a one device person in terms of my study and can do my own backups and offline storage of my documents, which anyone should look at doing, rather than rely soley upon Logos.
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I appreciate the concerns posted by Russ and Andy...I've learned quite a bit from reading their posts and the posts written in response. On one level I have noticed many similar posts--clearly these issues concern these guys. Of course, I don't have to read them all, do I? Since this is the USA and all, griping about their postings, whether they are one-note symphonies or not, is uncalled for. The funny thing about this whole forum--NOBODY MAKES YOU CLICK A SINGLE LINK. If you don't want to read a particular poster's posts--DON'T. Problem solved.
I frankly think the only posts that should be banned or limited are the ones that complain about complainers. If no one complains about a problem, the problem cannot be addressed. Thus all are forced to suffer through inadequecies that waste resources (primarily time). Griping solves problems. That may fly in the face of what some people consider to be "Christian behavior"...but such thinking stems from a flawed concept of Christianity. Don't forget that a vast portion of the Bible is nothing more than YHWH griping about stuff...He's constantly hemming and hawing about "improvement" and "betterment". Why don't some of you who can't stand for someone to express dissatisfaction call God onto your carpet and give Him a good talking to about how to behave as a Christian?
See where that gets you...
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
stems from a flawed concept . . .
Some of my friends request that you leave your shoes beside the door. The forum sponsors (Logos) request that you leave your theology at the far side of the keyboard.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
I frankly think the only posts that should be banned or limited are the ones that complain about complainers.
The vast majority of us don't mind 'complaints' if they're reasonably described and rationally argued. Heck, all of us complain about certain things. And I don't mind at all Andrew's decision not to use notes/prayer lists because he's concerned about security. That's entirely his own business.
But what some people have objected to is over-generalising statements: "Logos is terrible because it doesn't do this one thing I want", "Logos doesn't listen to anyone because they don't do what I want". (I'm deliberately not quoting individuals above, but paraphrasing sentiments that are expressed from time to time by different individuals.)
When Logos was first released, it didn't support old-style reverse interlinears, and they didn't intend it to. But they changed because of the response on this forum. What changed their minds was not complaining and griping. What changed their minds was thoughtfully worded rational arguments that showed an appreciation for the larger issues, explained clearly why the 'old' way could be more helpful to them than the 'new' way. More importantly, what changed their minds was that when posts like this came along, lots of other people chimed in and said "me too! That's what I think!".
If we want to change Logos (and there's not much point complaining just for the sake of it), then we need to persuade others, so that Logos know it's not just one or two whinging, but a much deeper problem. Unfortunately threads like this one have generated more heat than light.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
But they changed because of the response on this forum. What changed their minds was not complaining and griping. What changed their minds was thoughtfully worded rational arguments that showed an appreciation for the larger issues, explained clearly why the 'old' way could be more helpful to them than the 'new' way. More importantly, what changed their minds was that when posts like this came along, lots of other people chimed in and said "me too! That's what I think!".
If we want to change Logos (and there's not much point complaining just for the sake of it), then we need to persuade others, so that Logos know it's not just one or two whinging, but a much deeper problem. Unfortunately threads like this one have generated more heat than light.
Mark, that not only works on the Logos forum, but in life as well!
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