Sell Me on a LFL Subscription
First off, I want to acknowledge @Phil Gons (Logos) as the main reason I am even willing to post this and give consideration to the responses. He has been an asset to Logos and to me personally for a long time as a customer/user. I can also add @Bradley Grainger (Logos) as well - I really appreciate the time both have given to me through the years and especially during the transition to the New Era of Logos. ( @Jason Stone (Logos) though related to the Forums is an added benefit)
Pleasantries aside - I think I've been quite clear through the whole process of the issues I have with the current state of doing further "upgrade" business with Logos - but I'd like to hear the Sales Pitch from my fellow users (Logos Members are welcome as well) that have been subscribed and have had time with the new offerings.
As a heads up - I am currently where I want to be with my Library, so the resources that come with the Subscription and the discount/cash back perks aren't going to move my opinion. (Not that I don't want you to mention if that is a benefit to you - just that if that is going to be your emphasis - it won't have an impact for me)
So let's see what you have Forum Sales Team - can you sell me and potentially others???
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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My first thought: do you want them to still be in business in a decade? Answer then buy accordingly.
preachertony.com — appletech.tips — facebook.com/tonywalker23 — twitter.com/tonywalker23 — youtube.com/tonywalker23
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Frank, I think you tried early access and have beta tested the product. (correct me if I am wrong) You have voiced your concerns about the product and those concerns still exist. I would say that each customer needs to decide the best path for them in going forward with Logos. I do not think after all the discussions I have read about how you feel, going through the Pros of a subscription, or why some may enjoy the subscription product will convince you otherwise. I respect your opinion. Your dislike for the taskbar alone is reason for you not to subscribe at this time. Hopefully this comes across as respectfully honest.
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Came across fine @John Fidel - I agree, the Toolbar was one of two reasons I would not subscribe - but it sounds as though I will not have a choice in avoiding it, without locking myself to V36 at some point in the future. Thus, my post.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Obviously, I'm not a sales team member. But I can say why I've been using the subscription model since the first Logos Now (Is that the right term? I forget), which was followed by FL Connect. I got into the subscription model because every couple of years Logos would release the newest version and charge a couple-hundred dollars, or so, to get it. The subscription's cost for two years seemed to me to be about the same, more-or-less, than the one-time cost of the latest version. Plus, there were some benefits. So from a cost perspective, the subscription seemed to be a wash with the one-time price. If they still followed that model, then they would have released Logos 11 sometime this fall, and charged us more than a couple-hundred dollars for the privilege. I also remember the amount of discontent that was seen on the forums every time a new version came out, but after time everyone settled down and accepted our fate. I don't know if the same thing will happen this time, but I, for one, am happy with my subscription. Not only that, but I'm even learning to use the new toolbar!!! (Edit: I typed this about the toolbar before I saw the comments above. I had no intention of inciting anything by my comment - just my attempt at being lighthearted🙂)
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Frank, the subscription is a monthly commitment of around 10/month depending on your discounts. If you can fit that in your monthly budget, which most can if they would be buying a non-subscription feature set anyway, then just jump in and try it. Be willing to change some workflows in order to perhaps find some new features that enhance your study. If you still do not find value, then cancel and know you gave it your best shot.
That's the best advise I can give you buddy.
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All good @Dennis Toll - I didn't look at anything in your comment as being inciting anyways. I think you do make a good point for the subscription path (one I agree with BTW) that it can be an excellent option for some users due to the low up front. (Also, I was a Now subscriber for 2-3 years early on IIRC)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Hey Frank. I have no interest in putting together a sales pitch, but I'll answer nonetheless. What I like most about the subscription: it's fun.
It's fun getting another $50 off on a $1000 course package that's 90% off. It's fun getting updates every 6 weeks. It's fun being able to sample courses on the side when I have the time. It's fun asking conversational questions in search about my library and having AI point me to resources I never would have discovered with precise search. It's fun having variety and being able to switch between smart and precise search. I could go on, but you get the point. It does help, admittedly that I'm an optimist. If I were not, I may get frustrated at Logos' tendency to prematurely release things out of beta. As it is, it's fun to see Logos regularly fixing problems and bugs, improving features.
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Thanks @Aaron Hamilton - I will admit that the Mobile Ed courses would be one perk that I would use. I can't say that I haven't used the ones that I have purchased.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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@Dennis Toll said "The subscription's cost for two years seemed to me to be about the same, more-or-less, than the one-time cost of the latest version."
Aren't you forgetting something? After two years of paying for subscription, you own nothing.
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Aren't you forgetting something? After two years of paying for subscription, you own nothing.@ After two years, I would also have to pay another couple-hundred (or three??) dollars to continue. So it's the same thing. I've been subscribing since Logos Now started way back when. From my perspective
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My contribution to this discussion is a variation on Tony's. I want Logos to be in business for the pastors, missionaries, evangelists, academics, and lay persons who are doing the Lord's work now and those that follow after them. So many Bible software companies are no longer in business and that is a concern to me. In addition to all the benefits others have mentioned that accrue to me from my subscription, my monthly subscription is a small investment in a company I want to see continue to be there in the future.
I wish you grace in making your decision, Frank.
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Aren't you forgetting something? After two years of paying for subscription, you own nothing.
Sorry - but I messed up on the two previous posts under my name — I am still trying to figure out how to quote, and something weird happened in those attempts. I would love to know how to delete them.
Regarding @John 's question, that's never bothered me. I always intended to continue my subscription, since I would always be paying for the latest update anyhow. The books and libraries I purchased would always be mine, regardless of the subscription. And with this latest Logos Max model, I get to keep the latest version after two years. So I have always viewed it that whether I bought, or subscribed, I would be at the same place in terms of cost. And subscription provided some perks along the way. That's my take, anyhow.
Maybe this is related, or not, but I also subscribe to the Galaxie Journal package instead of purchasing. At $50 a year and at 68 years of age, I figure I will die long before I pay more money for the subscription. 😋
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I'm on the forum sales team, but a slightly different perspective … just ride the wave. If the menu forces the issue, no loss … you're not paying. But here's the deal … their next feature may be the cat's meow. That sounds speculative, but it just seems to me, applying AI to the Text, is going to revolutionize a whole area of Bible study. My platform does that. And if you're thinking …. oh … computers doing theology! No, I'm talking about searching out phrasings, author patterns, and so forth. And that's just one area … many more are possible.
So .. no decisions needed too soon … and you may be pleasantly surprised.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Wrong again. After 2 years on subscription, you would own nothing.
After purchasing an upgrade, two years later you would still own what you had purchased, and you would be able to make an intelligent decision whether to purchase additional new features, after seeing them described and demonstrated. You could pay nothing if the new features did not interest you.
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@Dennis Toll said "And with this latest Logos Max model, I get to keep the latest version after two years.".
This is ONLY true if you already owned the L10 full feature set … which your first post indicates you do not?
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Despite that deal, Logos gave the longtime Logos Now subscribers the Full Feature Set at no additional cost. That shows me that Logos is still a company concerned with treating customers well, even if it leaves money on the table for them.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Makes sense, Dennis. For those who have every intention of continuing with the subscription there's not much to be bothered by. It's if someone might want to stop after awhile that they run into trouble. All that money and nothing to show for it. For now the LFL helps with that problem, as you correctly identified.
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@John, I have no desire to get into an argument about what I like and don't like. My first post was for @Frank Sauer. I have liked the subscription model for several years. So if I am "wrong" as you say, that's my preference.
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I did not say you were wrong for liking something. I said you were wrong for implying that the cost was the same, without factoring in ownership.
If I buy a new car, i own it.
If I lease a new car for 4 years, I pay for it, but at the end of the lease I own nothing.
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Good for you @John. You are right. I am "wrong."
Enjoy your victory.
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Deep inside you want it or else you wouldn’t be asking for affirmation. You will get left behind at some point so might as well take the plunge now.
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I've never denied that I wanted to upgrade - I normally always upgrade…. However, this "New Era" is not the same as the company that I faithfully supported and promoted for over 20 years. There was one time a charge for the Libronix Mac engine crossgrade - never charges for the advancement of Feature Parity - as an Android user in the New Era - I'm stuck with iOS licenses that are useless to me and am told you have to pay for Parity - that concerns me as a customer as to what the future holds for similar decisions.
Another large concern for me is being valued as a long time customer. The Logos I supported for all these years - if I called and asked if Bob could email me, as I had some concerns about "insert concern" - I received an email from Bob…. In the New Era - I waited 6 months before giving up for a multiple time request to communicate with the Project Manager… I'm not even worth an email… That's why I mentioned the guys in the OP - they reached out to me… But the person with the answers… Nothing - so another reason I am concerned about what the future holds - this is not the Logos that I am used to…
So those two things - I gave up on the toolbar since I have a choice of locking myself to V36 or using it since there will be no avoiding it at some point in the future…
That's why I asked for the "Forum Sales Team" to sell me on it (I am looking for a positive, but the two things I mentioned are really concerning to me. Honestly if Logos had come out and said those of us who own the Sermon features get parity for Android as we always have in the past - with the news about the toolbar - I would have already paid for the two year in my cart - but it is a principle thing for me - yes I am stubborn when it comes to things like that and I do not fear being "left behind", as it would be Logos leaving a faithful customer behind)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Also a "minor" concern is the "no refund" business model…. I've seen some post about their disappointment with the Subscription being told that they are stuck with it for a year or two if that is what they paid. Logos, IIRC had a 30 day "return" policy - I only used it once, when a salesperson looked at my order and with talking to me - pointed out that he could get me a better deal for what I was looking for and processed the refund and new purchase on the same call…
It currently sounds like that benefit is gone (unless you pay monthly and change on the next month)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Frank, I could give you a short. list of reasons now as we are still very early in the "new era".
My first reason would be simply that I want Logos to be around for the long haul. I wish the same for Accordance and still support and promote them as well.
Second, I have found that the AI has provided some real value for me. When I research something, it is nice to see book results with summaries show up that I don't own or wasn't even aware they existed. This will help drive book sales for Logos as well so it's a win-win there.
Last, the reality is that, in a lot of cases, people aren't looking to make large purchases and continue buying books anymore. And others feel that since they made their purchase 20 years ago that they are entitled to free updates for life (Not referring to you or anyone, just generalizing). If everyone did that, it is not sustainable. Logos has promised that, and that is very generous of them. Programmers have to be paid, the electric bill needs to be paid, etc. Since I do have the LFL, I look at my subscription as a way to help keep Logos healthy. They do need a steady stream of revenue. And yes, they still need to continue to offer LFL as an incentive :-)
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Just wanted to say I appreciate the input from those that replied - Thank you!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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You’re welcome 😁 Now go ahead and jump on that subscription 👍
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😂maybe one day - there are things that would make that an easier decision to give it a chance, but - well - I'll keep an eye on this thread if anyone else decides to share
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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All the more reason to wait! Motivate Logos staff to build something great. I'm looking for some good (new) OL tools.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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OL tools + AI assistance in Logos = game changer
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