Sell Me on a LFL Subscription
Comments
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It would be nice to see more Features - there are one or two that may interest me as of now…
As much as Features (maybe a little more), I am watching the "operation" and "decision making" of the New Era of Logos - there are some things that concern me there and I look at not only "what" I am buying, but "who" I am buying from….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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This is one reason I am waiting to see what Max may offer for the LFL - if Max is just non LFL Features, I may avoid it
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I would suggest avoiding it until there's an obvious motivator for you. As of now, there's not much reason to favor Max over Pro. If OL study doesn't excite you, then there's likely not going to be much reason for you in the future either. I say this, however, as a happy Max subscriber.
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If there is another Q & A at the next Webinar when Mark covers what is in v.39, I definitely want to ask this question.
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I keep looking forward to each new Version Beta cycle for something in the Release Notes of some upcoming Feature to look forward to - so far it seems UI, AI and updates to existing Features are the highlights. (Bible Study Builder does look interesting)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Yep, and it's rather funny (watching my own behavior). I daily experience bugs in the app, but the update writeup swells with pride, for subscription fixes. I think, well, okaaaay.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I've been on the fence but figure a worker is worth his wage. The old model of software (buy once, then expect free upgrades and maintenance for life) just isn't viable. That was of a time that only worked when the PC industry & Internet were young and there huge numbers of new buyers out there (a sort of pyramid scene where new buyers were financing the older buyers).
I feel like Logos came in with a reasonable subscription price so despite my satisfaction with my library and lack of "need" for AI, I liked it well enough to do it.
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While I do understand the view and may not totally disagree with it - there were some who weren't just buy once - we kept updated and showed continued support through the years. We also paid a "Logos Premium" we were told was due to the cost to allow the searches that we have today. As others have stated and questioned in many posts (not all subscription related) many books can be found on sale or below retail elsewhere, yet many still support Logos there as well.
So while I can understand the downfall of the buy once segment of the user base - there is the group of us that have been faithful customers.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Good points. You've surely done a lot more than me in supporting Logos since I've not bought upgrades and don't buy many books now.
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Frank,
I'm in the overwhelming minority, but, highly vocal group on this one.
First, I'll give you the very bad, worst and ugly of Logos, and how I see it and them as a corporation.
I find them to be a very greedy, money hungry, barely Christian organization, that is pretty much out to "sucker" Christians, under the guise of Christianity.
From early on, they have maintained they are a business first; they have never even stated ministry is second. At least I have not seen it, and, they have not said so to me. Their primary purpose is to make money. I think it is their only purpose.
Now, in defense of Logos, there is nothing wrong with a business making money, and, I do not believe that if God has blessed a minister, or a person with a ton of money, that is inherently wrong. Some people do. I do not. The Bible states the LOVE of money is the root of all evil; not money itself. Having plenty of money makes it a lot easier to survive this life, and to hopefully do God's work much easier.
Now, while I speak harshly against Logos, they do plenty that is right, also.
First, regardless of motivation in profiting off God's word. it is God's word. So, unless that in itself is a fraud; and, I am in no way suggesting it is, we must take into consideration that God's word will not return void. So, even if Logos is completely in it for the money, and they themselves are fraudulent, cons, and schemers, they're STILL making God's word available and study available. Even if it is at a hefty price tag; and, requires a hefty price tag to get to fully understand how to use it.
Now, assuming that those involved are not completely fraudulent, scamming and conning us, aside from the material itself, there are other things they do, I wish other companies would do:
*Customer Service. Granted, they are here to sell and boy do they ever. But, if you run into trouble, they are top notch at finding fixes. I even had them troubleshoot my computer to figure why the software wasn't updating properly. Most customer service reps cant even explain how to turn on a computer (sarcasm noted).
*Dynamic Pricing. I have heard motivations are not all that pure. I'll be honest. I dont care, at this point. There may be legal issues with selling later on; but, that is another bridge to cross later. In the meantime, they are otherwise correct. You shouldn't have to pay twice, nor should bundles be set up needlessly with 100's of titles, and half are repeated titles. So, I applaud this effort on their part. Maybe they aren't all about money, after all?
*You bought it, It's yours. People are discovering that when they buy digital copies of an item, they could lose access if the company loses their rights to the title; whether it be a song, book, movie, whatever. Logos was set up to guard against this. If they lose the license, their agreement requires the publishers to allow us to keep the title. Regardless. As a result, in one example, I continue to have access to the Hebrew Primer, even though Logos no longer has the license. Too bad that is not the case with Bring on the Dancing Horses, or Sphero's App Enabled Droids, which are pretty much useless without being able to redownload the apps.
As far as renting vs buying goes. Mr. Pritchard (did I get it wrong again?) former CEO and co-founder said, "Either way I get you money" when he started the subscription model. For me, it was a no-brainer; despite my a) lack of understanding on how to actually make use of the software, to any worth. b) my pretty much skepticism and hatred for how the company operates. IF I were to have ANY chance at putting my money to use and figure out how to use the software, it seemed practical to pay $100/yr over $10/mo and definitely over $400 every 3-4 years. On top of all that, there were REAL benefits to paying an annual right to use their books.
1. I get to use the books. Even if I dont know how to.
2. There's a wealth of information to access. In the 14 years I've been suckered, I mean, using Logos, I have accumulated over 7800 resources. Approximately (250 or less) will no longer be mine if ever I quit Logos. That works out to be 8.33/mo . We pay double that for HBO's Max or Netflix.
3. We received several out of copy-right titles every month. Some were valued over $50. After several years, the selection dwindled down to books at $20 or less; but, still a nice benefit, none-the-less.
4. We got to borrow up to two courses of our choice, per year. I cant afford $750 for a course, but I could access it for 6 months. For no additional cost.
5. 2% back at the start of the new year. Unlike credit cards where you get 2-5 pennies for every 100 you borrow, and are then charged 10-30 for not repaying those 100 back in 30 days, we get to keep what we spent, and get 2 pennies for every 100 we spent. Ok, not a lot, but, it helps. With my minimal spending (still seems like a fortune) I get $20 to spend. Which is kind of like getting my annual fee for $80, or, ironically, 6.66 a month.
To be honest, I am not thrilled by the new subscription plan. It's still $100/yr but, the question as to whether it will remain a "forever rate" as previously stated, or, whether it will be increased later, I suppose depends on how much integrity there is in the company; and, of course, since the old subscription rates were for the old model, they may say "Don't count anymore". I hope not; but, OTWT as they say.
IF i am (mis)understanding things correctly the perks are similar, with these key differences:
1. They choose what books we get for free. This can be better and worse. Better, because we may get better and newer titles. Worse because we may not want those titles.
2. They choose what courses we can access, and, apparently when. We can now get up to 8 (better) but again, they choose which ones we get (potentially worse).
3. We get something called AI credits. How many? No idea. Ive seen nothing to explain this, or, how it works. Actually, that makes this entirely frustrating.
4. I hear we get access to up to 500 new titles. I'm not sure if I missed this when I got them; or, I didn't get them; or, they're still coming. Again, frustrating.
5. The higher the level, the better the perks. This is always how that works. Another "Duh!" thing. But, for an extra $5 a month, we get far more than $5 in benefits; the 5 extra courses is one key benefit. Extra AI credits; again, if I knew what that was, how many we get, and how to do any of it, I could get excited. But, for now, not even breaking a yawn on this.
Ok, there you have an honest to God flat out critique. The good and the bad. For me, I cannot tell if I have been duped and am just pouring money into a pit; or, if I can ever get the desire and motivation back, to learn this, a wealth of information, for minimal money. So, obviously, I cannot determine for you, whether it's worth it or not. I figure, however, if you get excellent use of the software, then it has to be worth every penny, and more. Even though it's a never ending cash cow for Logos. But, if you are like me, and you barely open it, because a) its too difficult, b) you've lost almost all your desire and motivation, and/or c) tired of being bleeded to death, then perhaps you should figure better ways to use your resources.
Oh, one more thing. Logos will end in one of two ways for me:
1. I'll continue paying for Logos til the day I die, and, then the software license will undoubtedly be useless (or willed to someone) or
2 I'll stop, and the software license will undoubtedly be useless (or willed to someone) with all the titles remaining.
Either way, the result is ultimately the same.0 -
I still have the two year Max in my cart - I am wondering where the affordability that seems to be a benefit of the new era of Logos is….
I went back through my various upgrades and then add the Gold 2025 Library into the cart with the 2 year Max - this would be the equivalent of normal upgrades to the new Gold version in previous years (except we OWNED everything previously) and my total comes to the high end of my average similar upgrades…. (This is with the L10 FFS discount and the first 2025 Library Discount….) Sorry, but just another example of the missing "benefit" of subscription - where is it more affordable….
And I am being serious not cynical in this post - I am truly trying to find a "plus" in this new era…
Had to fight for a limited LFL
Forcing the new toolbar on users that do NOT want it
Charging for Feature Parity
Less free books with the Subscription as others have pointed out
and my personal issue as a long time customer and promoter of the product - dozens of requests and over six months of waiting and I am still not worth an email from the one person who could have answered some questions that I had…..
Yet somehow, I am still looking for the "silver lining" and waiting to give the LFL a chance to impress me and keep me as a faithful customer….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Smart Search - At first, I didn't think I would care about smart search because I am very good at using the precise search. I've changed my mind, it is incredible.
Upcoming improvements to smart search - Mark showed a screenshot a while back of a smart Bible search (Jesus speaking to women). That will be a game changer. I want to have that the day it comes out.
Bible Study Builder - If you ever lead discussions, the Bible Study Builder is a really powerful tool. Unearthing discussion questions with traditional methods is difficult at best, and really impossible to do consistently. The Bible Study Builder (which will be included in your Legacy Fallback license) is a great tool.I don't mind the dynamic toolbar. Upgrades usually come with UI changes, some of which I like right away, some of which grow on me and some of which I learn to live with. There isn't anything new about that.
But Frank, it seems like you aren't interested in this upgrade. So just skip it. Or wait a little longer and see if a new feature you like comes out and do a one month subscription to try it out. If you are happy with your features and happy with your books, why keep fretting about it? Just consider this Logos release a dud and jump in if and when you're pleased with the product. I especially don't understand why you're looking at Max, which offers no new features at present, just more rental books you don't want.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Ok Frank, seems like your mind and Batman’s are already made up. Having said that, whether you’re sold into buying or not that’s ultimately your decision. So buy and test it for two years or don’t buy, is that simple. We all waste money on other things this isn’t any different.
DAL
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Smart Bible search marketability will be interesting. I can see a whole raft of church leader-types, that the combination of a solid Logos, with easy search, would appeal. Then, everyday 'Bible study'ers' too.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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For me it's as simple as the extra subscriber discount and the extra free book of the month offerings.
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Why keep "fretting about it" - because many of us have invested deeply in the platform - and for me personally I do not like what I see and the risk in my investment….
I am used to dealing with a company that did not charge users for Feature Parity for Features they already own.
I am used to dealing with a company that a single request to communicate with one of its leaders - you would hear from that person directly within a few days max…. Not have someone else contact you or not respond to multiple requests for over six months….
Those are the two big ones….
To a lesser degree there are times that I look at the decisions and wonder if I am dealing with Logos or with a cable or cell phone company who are notorious for forgetting about the faithful customers and catering to the new ones (faithful customers have to lose the efficiency so the new users can have what they claim is "easier" navigation)
Maybe I am just stuck on the "how things used to be" - but the way the company was - made it tolerable when a decision or change you didn't like was implemented - Logos would also go out of there way to fix issues or the relationship with the customer - I don't see that any longer…. What am I talking about? With my personal situation in the days that I miss, I would not have a request to communicate with someone ignored for over six months (Bob included) - the moment I mentioned that my being forced to pay for Feature Parity for a Feature I already own (which has never been done before - only a one time charge to "fund" the original Mac engine (none of the Feature Parity going forward) - it would have been addressed immediately and I would have been thanked for being a long time customer - Now? I'm told you can have feature parity when you subscribe (a totally new agenda in the New Era) which leads me to wonder if that is the new standard of the New Era - pay for Feature Parity for features you already own going forward….
I gave up on the toolbar issue since I was informed it would be forced on me even if I don't subscribe…. So, I've already committed to either being stuck on V36 to avoid it or being forced to change some of my layouts and get used to up to four times the click to get the same job done just for the sake of bug fixes….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Those concerns don't have anything to do with anyone selling you on subscribing. You've decided that you don't want to subscribe to this product, so don't.
I have never tried to get into direct contact with any of the leaders of the company, so I can't speak to your concerns with that. I can say that I subscribed to Logos Now when it first came out without any expectation of ownership and that Logos gave the early adopters the Logos 10 feature set anyway when they transitioned us to the new model. That is the kind of action that makes me believe we're dealing with the same kind of reliable company that we have always enjoyed.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Yeah ok, you know my thoughts and can tell me what my concerns have to do with ... If I didn't want to try to find a reason, I would not waste my time doing so.... But you probably knew that as well .. LOL
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Just reading along, Frank, I 'suspect' some of their decisions (one in particular) is stuck in your craw. And it seems to speak to the future of the company (and you're hoping 'not').
I had that problem at the Libby>L4 crossover. A single decision, that (a) they didn't attempt to recognize its significance, (b) subsequently just ignored complaints, and (c) would turn out to be representative of their future decisioning. And so, I've held them at arm's length … enjoy the books, but be careful of the company. Everyone is different, of course.
I do think your example (Android parity) along with requiring owners to complain about legacy-ownership, are indicative of their future. I'm happy where I'm at … but, I'd not be if I were just entering the 'new era' game (rules now substantially favor the house).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I've been following this thread, Frank, and I suspect a specific issue is stuck in your craw, leading to wondering about the company (and hoping you're wrong).
I had that issue at the Libby > L4 crossover. They introduced a process that (a) had major significance to religious use, (b) ignored the significance, including later complaints, and © was representative of the company's later behavior.
The issues you bring up are similar … Android parity (really odd decision), and forcing customers to demand ownership after subscription payments. Personally, I'm happy, but if I were new to the 'new era' game, I'd not be .. the rules now significantly favor the house.
ADDED: Had to re-type the post; the forum app delivered java-error messages and deleted the post. Looks like a significant work in progress for Vanilla.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I can't and won't try to talk you in to buying a 'scrip. It's a gamble, and you have to make that call.
I will say to those whose reasoning is, "Do you want them to be here in ten years?"…that is not Frank's (nor my) responsibility. If you think it's yours, just sign over your paycheck to them. That'll put your money where your mouth is.
Though vocally opposed to the 'scrip, I gambled. I can afford to lose a couple hundred bucks if it doesn't go well. What I will NOT do is be a welfare base for the company. I'm still a customer and they are still not a charity. They are going to have to continue to provide a product that I'm willing to pay for. So far, so good; but it's only the first quarter and there's lots of game to be played yet.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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While it’s true that a company’s longevity isn’t our direct responsibility, choosing to support businesses we appreciate through subscriptions can be a win-win situation. It’s not about “signing over our paychecks” but making a conscious decision to invest in services we find valuable and wish to see continue and improve.
Ultimately, the decision to subscribe should be based on the value received and one’s personal circumstances, not on an obligation to support the company. However, if we derive significant benefits from a service, supporting it through a subscription can be a rational and mutually beneficial choice.2 -
Definitely one of my concerns - and you can't get a direct answer for some of the concerns - is the policy of the New Era going to be locking Feature Parity behind a paywall (which has never been in the past - when a user owned a Feature, it included Parity when available)
It also concerns me as I have stated that as a customer since the "Libby" days, that has not been a one and done and also has brought a number of customers into the fold through the years - that the man with the answers doesn't value me as a long time customer, supporter and promoter enough to even spare a few minutes to type up an email…. (Again, not something that I am used to in the "Golden Era"….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Yeah, I try to look past the posts insinuating or outright stating that users need to or should subscribe to keep Logos in business….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I can agree with this - which is why I supported the company through the years and would hope based on past experience that long term customers, especially those who have promoted the product (and if they don't believe that - it should be on record for a short time that my name was linked to a small Bible College that I helped set up an Academic Program with Logos, as well as plenty of "showings and demonstrations" that I have done through the years that have no record) would be worth an attempt to contact when requested - something that would never have been an issue in the past.
I get the request pawned off to another manager that I have worked with in the past, and whom I really appreciate - but still faced questions that the person that I requested multiple times to contact me was the only one with the answers…. Again, never had that problem with Bob, Dan, or Phil in the Golden Era…
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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One thing that helped me Frank was thinking of the subscription as just another avenue of giving, one that allows people to hear about Logos, and to benefit from it. Even free account can use Logos to considerably improve their interaction with the bible. You can then also consider the number of free books that are given out each month, and how the spirit can work through these gifts.
Sure we are supporting a commercial entity, but it is one that is full of people who work for the Lord with intentions to help others to know him deeper, and that is not that different than supporting a charity doing the Lords work that may just happen to employ six figure senior management, not necessarily an ideal situation, but one that is sometimes necessary for the charity to remain viable. And if some of our money is channelled into the hands of venture capitalist, it will end up elsewhere eventually, and ultimately he is control of that.
I hate subscriptions, but this is one I am pretty sure is beneficial to the kingdom. I don't know the exact numbers, or even vague numbers, but even if there were 1 million Logos users now, that is insignificant compared with the potential hundreds of millions of users there could be over the next say 50 years, and the benefits that Logos could bring to them and who they reach, and if my relatively small subscription helps facilitate this by helping to keep Logos Inc. solvent, then I can sleep easy subscribing. Everything else then that comes with the subscription I can then view as a plus, and take it or leave it.1 -
@Kevin A I really appreciate your response. It is encouraging, as this was my attitude in the past, if/when I disagreed/wondered why in relation to decisions....
Maybe I can get back to looking at it this way - but there are some concerns that have me personally wondering if it is still the same company in this sense...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I think we had a miscommunication. I am not claiming to read your mind, I'm saying that your reply to me didn't have anything to do with the product or your original post asking people to sell you on getting a subscription for the legacy fallback license. If you don't trust the company, it would be silly to subscribe no matter how nice the features are or no matter what we say. Certainly you shouldn't prepay 2 years. If you don't trust the company, the risk of paying up front doesn't make any sense compared to the tiny savings vs subscribing month to month.
My point is that since your concerns are with the company and not primarily the product itself, no user is going to be able to persuade you.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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I guess my goal is along the lines of getting the "Sales Pitch" from users that I feel I can get good insight from due to the extensive time together in the Forums - in HOPE that I could actually get a response to the issue(s) that I have with the company right now….
It amazes me that a simple question like "is the new policy of the New Era of Logos to lock Feature Parity behind the paywall?" can't be answered and a simple request for an email from the person who could have answered my many questions through the whole process continued to be ignored….
I guess in their eyes those two requests coming from a long time, faithful customer and promoter of the product are too much to ask…. While I look at it as "how can I support or promote a product that I can't get answers to simple questions" and "how can I promote a product and recommend it to others if a customer who requests communication is ignored?"
They love to mention other companies in relation to their decisions and I can say that from experience with at least one of those much larger companies - if I requested communication for a manager from a specific department - I received it typically within 3-5 business days at max…..
I know some will say that there is a good amount of communication on the Forums from Logos - but not everything that I wanted to ask/discuss was a Forum discussion IMHO….
Maybe I am expecting too much - but something as simple as letting a customer with a legitimate question (is Feature Parity, contrary to all of Logos History (yes there was the one time Mac OS Engine charge and for a limited time - but not for the Features that were added to it) now be locked behind the Subscription paywall? Or taking the time to send a couple emails really too much???
Especially when you have a customer ready to spend and those are the two big reasons said customer is not checking out what he has in his cart?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Also, based on a number of comments in these Forums, other related groups and from users I know - my concerns are not alone… There are a number of outlying questions on a broad spectrum of subjects from varying users…
One that I haven't mentioned recently or much at all - was one of my initial questions with the New Era… That being, based on the feedback I read from Subscribers, the question as to how close is this New Era to leaning towards being a paid Beta experience - I seem to see a LOT of issues being posted/commented on from users who have no "issue(s)" with the New Era….
Again, there are just a few things that I would like clarity on and am tired of "I can't speak for Mark" type responses, since the person with the answers could care less.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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