Sell Me on a LFL Subscription
Comments
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I can't and won't try to talk you in to buying a 'scrip. It's a gamble, and you have to make that call.
I will say to those whose reasoning is, "Do you want them to be here in ten years?"…that is not Frank's (nor my) responsibility. If you think it's yours, just sign over your paycheck to them. That'll put your money where your mouth is.
Though vocally opposed to the 'scrip, I gambled. I can afford to lose a couple hundred bucks if it doesn't go well. What I will NOT do is be a welfare base for the company. I'm still a customer and they are still not a charity. They are going to have to continue to provide a product that I'm willing to pay for. So far, so good; but it's only the first quarter and there's lots of game to be played yet.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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While it’s true that a company’s longevity isn’t our direct responsibility, choosing to support businesses we appreciate through subscriptions can be a win-win situation. It’s not about “signing over our paychecks” but making a conscious decision to invest in services we find valuable and wish to see continue and improve.
Ultimately, the decision to subscribe should be based on the value received and one’s personal circumstances, not on an obligation to support the company. However, if we derive significant benefits from a service, supporting it through a subscription can be a rational and mutually beneficial choice.2 -
Definitely one of my concerns - and you can't get a direct answer for some of the concerns - is the policy of the New Era going to be locking Feature Parity behind a paywall (which has never been in the past - when a user owned a Feature, it included Parity when available)
It also concerns me as I have stated that as a customer since the "Libby" days, that has not been a one and done and also has brought a number of customers into the fold through the years - that the man with the answers doesn't value me as a long time customer, supporter and promoter enough to even spare a few minutes to type up an email…. (Again, not something that I am used to in the "Golden Era"….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Yeah, I try to look past the posts insinuating or outright stating that users need to or should subscribe to keep Logos in business….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I can agree with this - which is why I supported the company through the years and would hope based on past experience that long term customers, especially those who have promoted the product (and if they don't believe that - it should be on record for a short time that my name was linked to a small Bible College that I helped set up an Academic Program with Logos, as well as plenty of "showings and demonstrations" that I have done through the years that have no record) would be worth an attempt to contact when requested - something that would never have been an issue in the past.
I get the request pawned off to another manager that I have worked with in the past, and whom I really appreciate - but still faced questions that the person that I requested multiple times to contact me was the only one with the answers…. Again, never had that problem with Bob, Dan, or Phil in the Golden Era…
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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One thing that helped me Frank was thinking of the subscription as just another avenue of giving, one that allows people to hear about Logos, and to benefit from it. Even free account can use Logos to considerably improve their interaction with the bible. You can then also consider the number of free books that are given out each month, and how the spirit can work through these gifts.
Sure we are supporting a commercial entity, but it is one that is full of people who work for the Lord with intentions to help others to know him deeper, and that is not that different than supporting a charity doing the Lords work that may just happen to employ six figure senior management, not necessarily an ideal situation, but one that is sometimes necessary for the charity to remain viable. And if some of our money is channelled into the hands of venture capitalist, it will end up elsewhere eventually, and ultimately he is control of that.
I hate subscriptions, but this is one I am pretty sure is beneficial to the kingdom. I don't know the exact numbers, or even vague numbers, but even if there were 1 million Logos users now, that is insignificant compared with the potential hundreds of millions of users there could be over the next say 50 years, and the benefits that Logos could bring to them and who they reach, and if my relatively small subscription helps facilitate this by helping to keep Logos Inc. solvent, then I can sleep easy subscribing. Everything else then that comes with the subscription I can then view as a plus, and take it or leave it.1 -
@Kevin A I really appreciate your response. It is encouraging, as this was my attitude in the past, if/when I disagreed/wondered why in relation to decisions....
Maybe I can get back to looking at it this way - but there are some concerns that have me personally wondering if it is still the same company in this sense...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I think we had a miscommunication. I am not claiming to read your mind, I'm saying that your reply to me didn't have anything to do with the product or your original post asking people to sell you on getting a subscription for the legacy fallback license. If you don't trust the company, it would be silly to subscribe no matter how nice the features are or no matter what we say. Certainly you shouldn't prepay 2 years. If you don't trust the company, the risk of paying up front doesn't make any sense compared to the tiny savings vs subscribing month to month.
My point is that since your concerns are with the company and not primarily the product itself, no user is going to be able to persuade you.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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I guess my goal is along the lines of getting the "Sales Pitch" from users that I feel I can get good insight from due to the extensive time together in the Forums - in HOPE that I could actually get a response to the issue(s) that I have with the company right now….
It amazes me that a simple question like "is the new policy of the New Era of Logos to lock Feature Parity behind the paywall?" can't be answered and a simple request for an email from the person who could have answered my many questions through the whole process continued to be ignored….
I guess in their eyes those two requests coming from a long time, faithful customer and promoter of the product are too much to ask…. While I look at it as "how can I support or promote a product that I can't get answers to simple questions" and "how can I promote a product and recommend it to others if a customer who requests communication is ignored?"
They love to mention other companies in relation to their decisions and I can say that from experience with at least one of those much larger companies - if I requested communication for a manager from a specific department - I received it typically within 3-5 business days at max…..
I know some will say that there is a good amount of communication on the Forums from Logos - but not everything that I wanted to ask/discuss was a Forum discussion IMHO….
Maybe I am expecting too much - but something as simple as letting a customer with a legitimate question (is Feature Parity, contrary to all of Logos History (yes there was the one time Mac OS Engine charge and for a limited time - but not for the Features that were added to it) now be locked behind the Subscription paywall? Or taking the time to send a couple emails really too much???
Especially when you have a customer ready to spend and those are the two big reasons said customer is not checking out what he has in his cart?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Also, based on a number of comments in these Forums, other related groups and from users I know - my concerns are not alone… There are a number of outlying questions on a broad spectrum of subjects from varying users…
One that I haven't mentioned recently or much at all - was one of my initial questions with the New Era… That being, based on the feedback I read from Subscribers, the question as to how close is this New Era to leaning towards being a paid Beta experience - I seem to see a LOT of issues being posted/commented on from users who have no "issue(s)" with the New Era….
Again, there are just a few things that I would like clarity on and am tired of "I can't speak for Mark" type responses, since the person with the answers could care less.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I like the Logos product. A lot. It is rock solid. The company is likely to be solid for many years to come. I do NOT like the subscription model, but since the product is second-to-none, and the company seems solid, and Logos is definitely working on customer relations—think how good Mark Barnes and Jason Stone have been for product image—I give 5 stars (4.9 rounded up) to the company as a whole.
Logos is not perfect or complete; programmers and businesspeople will always have new innovations and we will all benefit. Forums influence that. So, at the end of the day, I am a pretty happy camper. Although I would have described myself as the Logos user most likely to never subscribe no matter what—guess what? I did. And the world has not crumbled. A graph of my Logos experience and satisfaction over the years has been a steady steep climb toward thrilled.4 -
Frank,
I would like to submit some thoughts on feature parity, not, however, to argue on either side of the issue. Logos employees have in the past mentioned time needed to develop features as their rationale for charging customers. For example, while instant dark mode seems like it might be a prime candidate to be rolled out to all users, this decision has not yet been made because it was very time-consuming to develop, and they have to recoup the costs of that by requiring payment.
It would be my assumption that feature parity is handled similarly. Where significant costs are involved, the need to recoup those costs requires them to sell it as a new feature rather than release it as being tied to a previous feature.
Therefore, there simply may not be an all-encompassing policy on feature parity to share, as each feature may be considered on a case-by-case basis.
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I am not anti-Logos, but I am a concerned consumer with the direction of the product…. Why are we being charged for Feature Parity, something that we have not seen in the past…. Why are long time users and power users being forced into a less efficient and from the bug report/improvement requests - beta level toolbar for the sake of supposedly "Easier" navigation for new users?
As for customer relations - @Jason Stone (Logos) has been an incredible asset - in relation to @Mark Barnes (Logos) - not so much for me - I guess YMMV (For me Logos as a Product 4.5 stars, which is why I "fight" for remaining a customer… - Customer Relations from 5 Star down to 1 Star in my recent experience - Forcing the new toolbar on all users and having to pay for Feature Parity going forward will drop the overall rating for me personally - which is why I am trying to get answers to simple questions…. For the record I wouldn't expect a iOS user who paid a premium for a feature that was available on Android to be forced into a subscription for a feature they already own - again New Era - New Policy?)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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There is a sense of 'need to defend Logos somehow' (vs deal with the specific issues Frank mentioned).
Just in the 'watching FL' business, and we're into mid-December, I personally now, wouldn't recommend Logos, except for heavy-duty folks (pastors, academic, etc). The digital-lock on resources (Logos or done), is now accompanied by a subscription model with no promises on 'how much' and 'what offerred'. Don't think so. OliveTree is the better choice for newbies and solid Bible study. AI is fun but for hobby-ists.
I say this relative to what Frank is mentioning .. an odd brittleness to FL decision making. Of course, it got into full-gear earlier this year … the BW setting w/o restart. I haven't seen the promised bug fixes, but then now, we have to worry about forced UI changes that primarily favor basic-use (pre-L4). But the last week or so really seemed odd … loading inapplicable software on Macs? Silently demanding 'users' (aka pastors, etc) figure how to undo the damage. Don't think so … FL's no longer on its game. Bumbling forward.
Eventually, someone will need to speak to the Android problem. Vs customer stats.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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There could be some truth to this... However, feature parity has never been charged for a feature that was already owned in the past as far as I remember. No one has provided an example outside the short lived one time charge for the Mac engine on Libronix. I do not remember the Mac engine ever being charged for features added to it. I'm sure some of those took extensive work.
As for the instant on off dark mode, while I can understand people looking at it as basic function... Logos could argue it's new and not Feature Parity.
In all the discussion about getting the Android Parity, it was never even hinted that owners of the Feature would have to pay for Parity....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I’ve had instant dark mode on my iPhone and MacBook for quite a while now 😂 Just go to settings, brightness and display and choose light or dark mode — it automatically changes everything that is compatible with dark mode! So this is not really a Logos new feature, your iOS or Mobile device already has it!
DAL
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This is true - as someone who rarely, if ever bothers with Dark Mode - it doesn't phase me one way or the other… I prefer a "Sepia" background for reading personally.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Not taking any side, but for the record, I pushed Logos 38 to my outdated Mac after it did not install by the regular update process. I own that; I didn’t catch the notice on the moonlighting of MacOS Monterey. However I will say that it was arbitrary to have Monterey cut off since it was working just fine with Logos 37.
As far as the ongoing debate, I am not a long term Logos customer with years of a customer-client relationship. I subscribe to Logos now since I don’t want to miss out on potential useful added features. I am certainly not a power-user of AI but it does some things I could not readily do without investing a lot of effort in mastering the Logos search symantecs. I was hoping that a subscription would be comparable in cost in the long run to updating to “Logos 11” but in reality it was not. The benefit in subscribing to Max was to get some higher level resources I have yet to purchase… I get to lease them to evaluate the fit. Unfortunately, even after a two-year lease none of the resources, not even a partial ownership, gets credited to me. I would rather this arrangement be lease to own. So after an investment of $312 usd I keep some portion of the updated application. I get a free book, assuming I don’t already own it, and a few other percs. I suppose to get the most benefit I will have to buckle down and take advantage of the Mobile Ed courses. So I have decided to take this ride for two-years. If the cost of admission then goes up I have to reevaluate. Sure, I would love for the company to remain financially sound. I give the same consideration to my local deli. What should set the Faithlife company apart is a commitment to Christians which is seemingly getting clouded by recent developments. Time will tell. I have my concerns and I am not even a ten-year “partner”. No strong sell from me but I do want the ministry work of Logos to continue to support Christians.0 -
@Kevin Houghtaling if I understand correctly, it reads as though you are a non Logos 10 Full Feature Set owner, which does not afford you a Legacy Fallback License as of today....
If so, I feel for you - and that experience is a reason I can't recommend Logos to a new user without giving warning of having access to whatever the company seems fit to have as a feature available in the "free" engine....
Paying all that money and being bounced back to the free engine is not a good deal IMHO
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Sorry for the misunderstanding, I do have the full feature set as I came into Logos with L10 Academic pro with the FFS added… I bought a “used” set. I subsequently added to this acquisition with many good legacy sets culminating with L10 Gold. So I made the initial purchase more useful for a non-academic, but a theologian nonetheless. I could have just ignored the subscription but my consideration is staying up with upgrades. By this time I would have been on board to update to a Logos 11 but realizing that the two-year upgrade cycle can be expensive. The subscription sort of fills the gap. I just would like the lease to lead to resource ownership.
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Ok, I think some have mentioned/suggested to Logos whether a discount of some form would be available on the included resources after a certain time of subscribing - say two years like the LFL features for L10 FFS Owners…. Don't recall if there was an answer to the suggestion. It may have been in one of the Subscription mega threads
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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So…Are you subscribing or not?
DAL
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Still deciding - I keep alternating between Pro and Max two year plans in my cart….
There have been some good points made in favor of giving it a chance - it would be nice to actually get some response from Logos, as that is the key information in helping me to decide. (Maybe I expect too much there….??? Nah!)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Update - I would like to thank @Phil Gons (Logos) and @Mark Barnes (Logos) for their time and communication!
While I still have some concerns, have come to better understand others and will still 'fight' for some - after communicating with these two gentlemen - I was willing to give the Max LFL a chance to impress me - I hope it is not something I regret….
(Yes… I do regret having to deal with the new toolbar already - but it would not be a choice at some point in the future whether subscribed or not…. Still hoping for drastic improvement or change in this regard - especially having to see the "New" link to a Forum thread I have spent far too much time in already LOL)
I do appreciate everyone's views and input!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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