combining a lemma and a non-specific morphological search

Larry Craig
Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
edited January 6 in English Forum

I want to do Bible searches on Hebrew verbs.

Hebrew has various verb forms, qal, piel, hiphil.

So I want to search the lemma in one of these forms. Logos won't let me do that. I can either look at the lemma in a very specific form, like 3rd person masc singular piel but not piel by itself.

Or I could look at that specific morphology for every Hebrew verb, but why would anyone want to do that?

I called CS and they suggested somebody might know a workaround. I asked if he could pass this on to the programmers.

thank you

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Comments

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,625

    Since I don't know Hebrew (or any semitic language) I may be embarrassing myself but why not search verb and stem … and specify nothing else?

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    Because it won't let me. If I do an inline search, I can search for the lemma, and then I can add AND @ and do that morph search.

    in a Bible search, it won't let me. I do the lemma, and the last word in the search box is Hebrew, which goes from right to left. It won't let me do a space after the word.

    If I try to add the morph in the beginning, it messes it up.

    Yes, an inline search will let me do that and I can copy and paste that in the Bible search. Now I forgot why I called CS about this. I know I shouldn't have to do that. the right click menu gives two meaningless morph search options.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,625
    edited January 5

    huh? what am I misunderstanding

    BTW: AND doesn't assure anything more than that the form and lemma are in the same verse. If you want the form and lemma to be on the same word, use INTERSECTS

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    I'm guessing you did the morph syntax before the lemma. I should do that.

    thank you very much

    if you have time, try the lemma first and see what it lets you do

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    I tried it and the program crashed. To initiate the search, I am in the Bible text, so it begins with the word I want to search. So to put the morph first, I would have to create the search first and then add both the morph and the lemma. It's late, so I should just go to bed now

    thanks again

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,716

    You can start by running a Bible search for the lemma from the context menu

    Then, in the resultant search window, enter the @ symbol

    From here, you can specify the morphological details you want

    giving results like this

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    it won't let me. It puts the morph sign to the left of the Hebrew word.

    I can think I am moving the cursor to the right end of the search parameters, but when I type, the morph sign is in the middle of the pack.

    I can move the cursor to the front of the whole thing, but then typing just messes it all up.

    I don't know how it seems so simple for you

    I have tried this over and over

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,716

    it won't let me. It puts the morph sign to the left of the Hebrew word.

    I can think I am moving the cursor to the right end of the search parameters, but when I type, the morph sign is in the middle of the pack.

    I've just been experimenting with this a bit further and it looks like the Mac / Windows systems performs slightly differently (which I don't think they should) and it looks like you are using Windows.

    Try this - after generating the lemma search string press the End key on your keyboard to move the cursor to the end of the string.

    Now enter the @ symbol and this will be placed on the right of the word with the morph dropdown menu showing

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    nope, doesn't work

    it goes to the end of the Hebrew word which is on the left side of the word.

    If I go to the beginning of the search operator and try the morph language, it messes up what was already there.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,716

    it goes to the end of the Hebrew word which is on the left side of the word.

    Please confirm you are running on Windows.

    And please post a screenshot showing the position of your cursor after pressing the End key on your keyboard with the lemma search string in focus

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    yes, I'm running on Windows.

    I have three monitors. If I do a screen shot, it shows all three monitors and what you want to see is tiny. I don't know how to do all this fancy stuff.

    But, yes, with a Hebrew lemma, I hit end, it goes to the end of the Hebrew word which is right in the middle of the search operator.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,716

    But, yes, with a Hebrew lemma, I hit end, it goes to the end of the Hebrew word which is right in the middle of the search operator.

    And what happens if you press the @ symbol next, without doing anything else first?

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    it puts it at the end of the Hebrew word, right in the middle of the operator

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,716

    it puts it at the end of the Hebrew word, right in the middle of the operator

    Where exactly do you mean? I assume you have something like this:

    Does the cursor end up immediately after the colon or somewhere else?

    And the mentioned you aren't able to do precise screen shots.

    On Windows you should have the Snipping tool. If you open that, you can set it to snip a region and you can then copy the results and paste it into a reply here.

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    immediately after the colon

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,625
    edited January 5

    Put it at the end of the string - after (to the right of) the Hebrew as in Graham's example.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    It doesn't work. I think he and I figured out that it will work on a Mac but not in Windows.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,625
    edited January 6

    Using Graham's method of combining into a single search term does fail on Windows. My more roundabout version with two separate search terms works on Windows as I am on Windows.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    OK, I'm stumped. I have Windows 11, and all the full features and the Max subscription, and I have tried everything over and over again.

    This works with the inline search. That has no problem. I can format that and copy and paste it in the Bible search. I found that out later. But, no, I can't get it to work in the Bible search.

    no need to spend any more time on this.

    thank you. I really appreciate your taking the time to work on this.

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,815
    edited January 6

    I would not be here except for MJ's redirection in a tagged post, so add similar tags to your posts e.g. Desktop App, Bug.

    If you paste just the word עֻלְפֶּה and then select the lemma from the drop-down, the cursor is auto-positioned at the end so you can type @ successfully. Also works if you select the lemma from a transliteration e.g. h:alep.

    If you then delete the @, Hebrew right-to-left kicks in!

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    Hi Dave

    thank you

    I don't see any way like the old version of the forum to reply to you, so I hope you see this.

    I initiate these searches from the right click menu. Your suggested way seems to be that I look up the word in a lexicon and then paste the lemma in a new search window.

    There are a lot of ways to do things in Logos, but I hope they focus on improving the shortest, most obvious ways that things should be done.

    I right click on a Hebrew verb, I choose the lemma, then a Bible search, and then I need to narrow the search to a particular verb form, and it won't let me do that.

    I can do an inline search and do that, and then I can paste the search operators there to a new Bible search, but that's adding unnecessary steps. I do these all the time. This is something that should be fixed. Not because I do it a lot, but to make Logos better.

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,716

    This is something that should be fixed

    Agreed - and MJ has reported it as a bug

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    Thanks, Graham

    I sure wish there was a way to reply to you instead of a general post.

    Oooh, another new suggestion

  • NB.Mick
    NB.Mick MVP Posts: 16,028
    edited January 6

    I think the quote function in the bottom row of each post is meant for that.

    Have joy in the Lord! Smile

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,815

    Hi Larry, I hit the ""Quote button at the bottom of your post to reply to you.
    I was suggesting a workaround if that was applicable, but you (and I) should be able to work as expected.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    OK, that works. But how much time is being spent on people trying to figure out how things work when it used to work fine before? Everybody knows what REPLY means.

    thank you

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,815
    edited January 6

    But how much time is being spent on people trying to figure out how things work when it used to work fine before? Everybody knows what REPLY means.

    Larry, I just pasted a part of your reply and used the Paragraph marker outside the reply box to make it a quote (it appears as an X when clicked):-

    When you want to use a person's name (in a quote or when addressing a post), type @ followed by their name as it appears in a post.

    New forum, new ways!

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • Larry Craig
    Larry Craig Member Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭

    @Dave Hooton

    I have nothing against new ways, but they are supposed to be improvements. A lot of people wasted a lot of time because Logos removed a simple reply button.

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,815

    I have a number of niggles (about 6!) that need fixing and am requesting 2 features we had in the old Forum to limit the posts we can view i.e. Unread and treat all as Read.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,625

    @Larry Craig

     A lot of people wasted a lot of time because Logos removed a simple reply button.

    I suspect there were also a lot of us who barely noticed the change in wording from "reply" to "leave a comment" because we saw it simply as a change in wording not a change in function. I suspect that those of us who are on multiple forums found the new forum quite familiar while those on few "modern" forums found it much more of a shock. It is important to those who find it familiar to remember many do not.

    .

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."