TIP OF THE DAY 144: "Time" before creation

MJ. Smith

I am adding these posts to the previous tip list L/V 10 Tip of the Day (when it doesn't time out)

POST ISSUE: “Time” before creation

It is easy to forget that time as we know it is a dimension of the physical universe. However, the Bible and rabbinic literature speak of events and things which precede the creation of the physical universe/time. The classic position of Augustine Anselm, and Aquinas is that God and eternity is atemporal (Psalm 90:2; Exodus 3:14; 2 Peter 3:8). Some theologians, like Karl Barth, suggest that the act of creation transcends our understanding of time, occurring in God's own temporality that is "beyond all created time." William Lane Craig championed the view that God is timeless without creation but with creation, God entered time. Process theology holds that God is bound by time and evolves with creation. Here we look at some Biblical and rabbinic references to events and things “before” creation. While the Logos search fails miserably at identifying the verses with a general query, if you know your Bible text, a Bible search for "before the foundation" for example can help tease out examples. Milestone searches on the Bible references will identify commentaries on the passages. Searches on the name and topic keyword used by that person will identify theological discussions on a framework in which to understand the notion of time in this context.

QUESTION: List some events and things mentioned in the Bible which precede creation.

SOFTWARE: A smart all search is productive for finding information about each of these events and things but was not productive in finding the items that met the criteria of preceding creation.

ANSWER 1: from Perplexity with the prompt: List 5 events mentioned in scripture that predate creation; list 5 things mentioned in scripture that predate creation.

Here are five events and five things mentioned in the Bible that are understood to predate or transcend creation:

Events:

• God's eternal existence (Psalm 90:2)
• The eternal generation of the Son by the Father (John 1:1)
• God's plan of salvation (Ephesians 1:4)
• God's foreknowledge of the elect (Romans 8:29)
• The eternal procession of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26)

Things:

• The Word (Logos) (John 1:1)
• God's Wisdom (Proverbs 8:22-23)
• God's love (John 17:24)
• The Kingdom prepared for the righteous (Matthew 25:34)
• The names written in the Book of Life (Revelation 13:8)

It's important to note that these "events" and "things" are understood more as eternal realities within the Divine Nature rather than temporal occurrences. They reflect the mystery of God's eternity and His relationship to creation, rather than literal pre-creation happenings.

ANSWER 2: From ChatGPT with the prompt: what events mentioned in the Bible occurred before the creation of the world:

Before the creation of the world as described in the Bible, there are a few events and concepts mentioned that are often associated with the "pre-creation" period, though they may not always be described in a linear, historical sense as we understand events. Here are some key points:

1. The Existence of God: The Bible presents God as existing eternally before the creation of the world. In the opening verse of the Bible (Genesis 1:1), "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," it implies that God existed prior to the beginning of the created order. In Christian theology, God is eternal and without beginning or end (Psalm 90:2).
2. The Creation of Angels: While the Bible doesn't provide a detailed timeline for the creation of angels, many theologians infer that they were created before the physical universe. Passages like Job 38:4-7 suggest that angels (referred to as the "morning stars" and "sons of God") were present when God laid the foundations of the earth. This is often understood to mean they were created prior to the earth itself.
3. The Fall of Satan: In Christian theology, Lucifer (later known as Satan) was originally an angel before his fall. Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 describe the pride and eventual rebellion of this angel, which led to his downfall. While the Bible does not specifically date this event in relation to the creation of the world, it is often assumed by theologians that it occurred before the physical creation, as it is believed that Satan was already in opposition to God's purposes by the time humanity was created.
4. God's Plan of Redemption: The Bible speaks of God's plan to redeem humanity through Christ before the foundation of the world. This is particularly highlighted in passages like Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20, which suggest that God had already set in motion His plan for salvation before the world was even created, and that Jesus Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
5. The "Creation" of Time: Genesis 1 begins with the phrase "In the beginning," which is understood to mark the start of time itself. Before this "beginning," there was no time as we understand it. In Christian theology, this suggests that time itself was part of creation and did not exist before it.

These are the major events or theological concepts linked to the "before creation" narrative in the Bible. Most of the details are theological or inferred from scripture, as the Bible doesn't provide a comprehensive timeline or narrative for events that happened prior to creation.

MJ. Smith

QUESTION: List some events and things mentioned in rabbinic literature which precede creation.

SOFTWARE: A smart all search is productive for finding information about each of these events and things but was not productive in finding the items that met the criteria of preceding creation. Note that the rabbinic literature offerings in Logos/Verbum are rather small.

Answer 1: from Perplexity with the prompt: List 5 events mentioned in rabbinic literature that predate creation; list 5 things mentioned in rabbinic literature that predate creation.

Events Predating Creation

Creation and Destruction of Previous Worlds

God created and destroyed multiple worlds before ours (Genesis Rabbah 3:7; Chagigah 16a).

Midrash compares this to a king building a palace over a "garbage heap" (remnants of prior worlds).

Contemplation of the Patriarchs

God "contemplated" creating Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis Rabbah 1:4).

Contemplation of Israel

The nation of Israel was part of God’s pre-creation plan (Genesis Rabbah 1:4).

Contemplation of the Temple

The Jerusalem Temple was part of God’s blueprint (Genesis Rabbah 1:4).

Planning of Redemption

Redemption through the Messiah was ordained before creation (Targum Zechariah 4:7; Testament of Moses 1:14).

Things Predating Creation

Torah

The Torah existed 2,000 years before creation (Pesachim 54a; Genesis Rabbah 8:2).

Repentance

The concept of teshuvah (repentance) was established before the world (Nedarim 39b).

Gan Eden (Garden of Eden)

The Paradise for the righteous was prepared beforehand (Pesachim 54a).

Gehenna

The realm of punishment for the wicked existed pre-creation (Nedarim 39b).

Throne of Glory

God’s celestial throne was created before the universe (Genesis Rabbah 1:4).

Key Notes

• Purpose: These ideas emphasize God’s foreknowledge and sovereignty, using pre-creation motifs to highlight divine intentionality.
• Metaphorical vs. Literal: Rabbinic texts often use these concepts symbolically rather than chronologically (e.g., "Torah" as wisdom guiding creation).
• Source Texts: Mainly from the Talmud (Nedarim 39b, Pesachim 54a) and Midrash (Genesis Rabbah).

For example, Genesis Rabbah 3:7 states: "God created worlds and destroyed them until He made this one, declaring: ‘This one pleases Me; the others did not.’"

Answer 2: From ChatGPT with the prompt: what events mentioned in the rabbinical literature occurred before the creation of the world:

In rabbinic literature, which includes the Talmud, Midrash, and other Jewish writings, there are various teachings, stories, and concepts about events that occurred "before the creation of the world." These teachings often delve into deeper theological and mystical discussions, some of which expand on what is found in the Hebrew Bible. Here are some key events and concepts that are mentioned in rabbinic literature related to the time before creation:

1. The Existence of God Before Creation

In rabbinic thought, it is emphasized that God existed before the creation of the world. This concept is foundational in Judaism, as God is understood to be eternal and without beginning or end. In the Midrash (e.g., Genesis Rabbah), God is depicted as creating the world "ex nihilo" (out of nothing) and having planned the creation before the world came into being.

The Talmud (e.g., Chagigah 12a) teaches that God alone existed before the world, and all creation was His will. The idea that God existed before time itself is foundational to understanding the relationship between God and the universe in rabbinic thought.

2. The "Primordial Light"

In some rabbinic teachings, especially in Midrash Rabbah and later mystical texts like the Zohar, there is a reference to a "primordial light" that existed before the creation of the physical world. This light is often interpreted as a metaphor for God's divine presence and the energy that emanated from Him before the structured creation of the world. The light is mentioned in Genesis 1:3 ("Let there be light"), and the rabbis often discuss how this light was created before the physical universe was formed.

Some sources suggest that this light was hidden by God after creation, reserved for the righteous in the world to come (see Bereshit Rabbah 3:4).

3. The Creation of the Torah

One of the most important concepts in rabbinic literature is the idea that the Torah itself existed before the world. According to the Talmud (Nedarim 38a), "The Torah was already created before the world was created." This idea is deeply connected to the belief that the Torah is not just a collection of laws and narratives but a divine blueprint for creation.

The Midrash also elaborates that God consulted the Torah when creating the world. It is described as being "written" before creation and being a source of divine wisdom used in shaping the universe (see Midrash Tehillim 90:2 and Zohar 1:16b).

4. The Creation of the World as a Divine Plan

Rabbinic literature often speaks of God's creation of the world as being part of a divine plan that predated creation itself. The Talmud (Pesachim 54a) and Midrash (Genesis Rabbah) suggest that God's decision to create the world was not arbitrary, but part of an eternal plan that existed in God's mind. This plan, in some views, was based on the Torah and the potential for humanity to fulfill God's will.

In some mystical and kabbalistic sources, the creation of the world is described as having taken place through a series of divine emanations, or "Sefirot," which existed before the physical world came into being. These concepts are especially prominent in Kabbalistic teachings but are rooted in earlier rabbinic sources.

5. The Creation of the "Primordial Man" (Adam Kadmon)

In Kabbalistic thought, especially as expounded in texts like the Zohar, the "Primordial Man" (Adam Kadmon) is seen as a mystical being that existed before the physical creation of the world. The idea is that before the material world was created, God created a spiritual, archetypal human being, which represents the divine blueprint for all of humanity. This "Primordial Man" serves as a spiritual vessel for the divine light.

This concept is somewhat an extension of earlier rabbinic teachings about the creation of humanity but is more fully developed in Kabbalistic literature.

6. The "Unfinished World" (Olam Ha-Ba)

Rabbinic literature, especially in Kabbalah, speaks of an "unfinished world" (Olam Ha-Ba or the World to Come) that existed before creation in some spiritual form. This world represents the divine ideal that is the ultimate purpose of creation. The notion of the Olam Ha-Ba is tied to the idea that God's plan for the world is both ongoing and eternal, and the goal of creation is to restore or achieve a perfected world. Some teachings suggest that in the beginning, before the material universe was fully created, this perfect spiritual world existed in a "latent" form.

7. The "Wisdom" (Chochmah) and "Understanding" (Binah)

Before the creation of the world, according to some rabbinic texts, attributes like Chochmah (Wisdom) and Binah (Understanding) were essential principles that existed in God. These are often personified in rabbinic thought as divine attributes or intermediaries through which God created the world. In Kabbalistic thought, these attributes correspond to the first two Sefirot of the divine emanation.

The Midrash and later Kabbalistic texts elaborate that these principles existed before creation and were integral to God's planning and executing the creation of the world (see Proverbs 8:22-30, which speaks of Wisdom being present at the creation of the world).

8. The Covenant with the Patriarchs

Another rabbinic concept tied to "before creation" is the idea that God made a covenant with the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) before the creation of the world. This is found in the Talmud (Berakhot 6a), where it is stated that God made a covenant with the patriarchs before creating the world, foreseeing that their descendants would be chosen to receive the Torah and fulfill His will.

9. The "Hidden Light" and the "World to Come"

Some sources describe a "hidden light" (or "primordial light") that existed before creation and was hidden away by God. This light represents an esoteric divine presence that would be revealed in the World to Come, a time of redemption and fulfillment of God's ultimate plan. This hidden light is thought to be something that predated the physical creation of the universe.

Conclusion

In rabbinic literature, the period before creation is rich with mystical and theological interpretations. Events such as the creation of the Torah, the existence of primordial wisdom, and the eternal covenant with the patriarchs are central to understanding the divine plan. These ideas often intertwine with mystical concepts in Kabbalah, which deepen the understanding of God's actions and intentions before the material world came into being.

ASUNDER

Hath God really said, "In the beginning" …

Bill

POST ISSUE: “Time” before creation

It is easy to forget that time as we know it is a dimension of the physical universe. However, the Bible and rabbinic literature speak of events and things which precede the creation of the physical universe/time. The classic position of Augustine Anselm, and Aquinas is that God and eternity is atemporal (Psalm 90:2; Exodus 3:14; 2 Peter 3:8). Some theologians, like Karl Barth, suggest that the act of creation transcends our understanding of time, occurring in God's own temporality that is "beyond all created time." William Lane Craig championed the view that God is timeless without creation but with creation, God entered time. Process theology holds that God is bound by time and evolves with creation. Here we look at some Biblical and rabbinic references to event and things “before” creation.

QUESTION: List some events and things mentioned in the Bible which precede creation.

SOFTWARE: A smart all search is productive for finding information about each of these events and things but was not productive in finding the items that met the criteria of preceding creation.

@MJ. Smith Your tips are interesting rabbit trails that also normally instruct on using Logos to research them, yet I notice you did not show any Logos Smart Search results for your question here even though you mention it in the statement below your question.

Is this because Logos does not have any of the authors resources in which to explore the whole context of what you cited for them in your statements above? Do you have access to links for those author's resources you cited?

I also notice that results you received from AI contain very few answers from texts within the Bible referencing to your question, but most are from other non Bible religious resources. Though interesting they are not from the Bible as your question states. So the AI you use is not finding or not using the Bible for its response from what I can see. It uses what others say they see from the Bible instead.

When I perform an all Logos smart search for your question I get no relevant results, but I do get results pertaining to events and things mentioned in the Bible preceding the new creation from what other say they see in the Bible.

However, when I do a smart Bible search for the same question I get initially nine relevant results from my top Bible.

IMO there are two really critical flaws I see with answers given by AI searches done outside of Logos.

The first is, there is not enough detail about resource citations, or links to them, so a person can easily locate and explore the whole context of its author's thoughts in order to verify what AI has put together is accurate and the truth.

The second is it doesn't know how to search the Bible.

Logos, on the other hand does this very well for both types of searches. Logos may be limited to a very large number of resources compared to other AI "world" libraries, but it covers adequately in most cases every rabbit hole I may chose to Smart Search and links me to the exact resource and text it quotes. That is what I appreciate about Logos AI searching.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363100#Comment_1363100

Of course … the creation of time … but obviously, God was "before" he created time. So is your comment strictly theological/metaphysical? I tried to avoid that by the contextual note providing a variety of perspectives and listing references to the occurrences in literature. If you believe any of my references to be inaccurate, please be specific.

MJ. Smith

Is this because Logos does not have any of the authors resources in which to explore the whole context of what you cited for them in your statements above? Do you have access to links for those author's resources you cited?

I was unable to get any results out of the smart search that focused on the "before time" aspect. It always selected other terms as the key terms. Interestingly, I didn't get new creation results. When I got near to my topic, it was focused on election and predestination i.e. proof texts for doctrine rather than less controversial examples. I had at a minimum expected to see Mike Heiser pop up as outside time. From the results I got I suspect that the routine prioritizing results as at fault for being unable to identify the correct terms as key.

I also notice that results you received from AI contain very few answers from texts within the Bible referencing to your question, but most are from other non Bible religious resources. 

I looked for examples three places (1) Scripture where references are fairly sparse (2) rabbinic literature which is slightly less sparse but includes instances that have bled into mainstream culture and (3) parabiblical literature which has many references with most of them obscure. You are correct that the first category is limited but it can be expanded. For example, the prompt "list 20 biblical "events" that precede creation using the Eastern Orthodox canon to define Biblical." in Perplexity continuing my previous conservation yielded:

Here is a list of 20 theological realities or "events" described in the Eastern Orthodox canon (including the Septuagint and New Testament) that are understood to precede creation as part of God’s eternal plan or divine nature. These are framed as timeless truths, not temporal events, since time itself began with creation:

1. The Eternal Existence of the Trinity

Meaning: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist eternally in perfect communion.

Scripture: John 1:1–3, John 17:24.

Theology: The Trinity’s life transcends time (Psalm 89:2 LXX).

2. The Pre-Existence of the Logos (Christ)

Meaning: Christ, the Word, existed with God before creation.

Scripture: John 1:1, Proverbs 8:22–30 (Wisdom as Christ).

Theology: Origen interpreted Genesis 1:1 as referring to Christ (Homilies on Genesis).

3. The Divine Council of the Trinity

Meaning: The plan of creation and salvation was ordained in the Trinity.

Scripture: Ephesians 1:4–5, 1 Peter 1:20.

4. The Foreordination of the Cross

Meaning: Christ’s sacrifice was planned before creation.

Scripture: Revelation 13:8 (“the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”).

5. The Election of the Saints

Meaning: Believers were chosen in Christ before time.

Scripture: Ephesians 1:4.

6. The Eternal Throne of Glory

Meaning: God’s throne symbolizes His unchanging sovereignty.

Scripture: Psalm 102:25 LXX, Wisdom 9:4.

7. The Pre-Existence of Divine Wisdom

Meaning: Wisdom (identified with Christ) was “begotten before all ages.”

Scripture: Proverbs 8:22–30, Wisdom 7:22–8:1.

8. The Heavenly Jerusalem

Meaning: The Church as the Bride of Christ pre-exists in God’s plan.

Scripture: Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 21:2.

9. The Book of Life

Meaning: Names of the saved were written eternally.

Scripture: Revelation 13:8, 17:8.

10. The Angels’ Creation

Meaning: Angels were created before the material world.

Scripture: Job 38:4–7 LXX, Wisdom 9:9.

11. The Promise of Eternal Life

Meaning: God’s gift of immortality was planned before time.

Scripture: Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9.

12. The Pre-Existence of the Law (Torah)

Meaning: The Law reflects God’s eternal righteousness.

Scripture: Wisdom 9:1–2 (“Wisdom fashioned all things”).

13. The Mystery of the Incarnation

Meaning: Christ’s human nature was foreknown.

Scripture: 1 Peter 1:20.

14. The Plan for the Church

Meaning: The Church as Christ’s Body was ordained.

Scripture: Ephesians 3:9–11.

15. The Victory Over Chaos

Meaning: God’s triumph over primordial disorder (symbolic, not temporal).

Scripture: Psalm 73:12–14 LXX (defeat of Leviathan).

16. The Glory of the Resurrection

Meaning: Christ’s resurrection power existed in God’s plan.

Scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:7.

17. The Eternal Sabbath

Meaning: Rest in God transcends creation.

Scripture: Hebrews 4:3–4 (God’s rest “from the foundation”).

18. The Pre-Existence of Mary’s Role

Meaning: Mary as the New Eve was part of God’s plan.

Theology: Liturgical hymns call her “prepared throne of God.”

19. The Judgment of the Nations

Meaning: The final judgment reflects God’s eternal justice.

Scripture: Matthew 25:34 (“the kingdom prepared from the foundation”).

20. The New Creation

Meaning: The eschatological renewal was foreordained.

Scripture: Revelation 21:1, Isaiah 65:17.

Key Orthodox Perspectives

Timelessness: These “events” are eternal divine realities, not chronological (Basil the Great, Hexaemeron).

Christocentric: All pre-creation truths find fulfillment in Christ (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16).

Sacramental Vision: Creation reveals God’s eternal energies (St. Maximus the Confessor).

For example, St. John Chrysostom taught that Genesis 1:1 reveals Christ as the “Beginning” (Homilies on Genesis), while Origen saw creation as a reflection of the Trinity’s glory (On First Principles). The Orthodox Church rejects literalistic “creationism” but affirms creation’s theological purpose (Public Orthodoxy, 2018).

This list aligns with the Eastern Orthodox canon, which includes the Septuagint and deuterocanonical books like Wisdom of Solomon.

As for references, here is a start - yes, I asked for major theologians and then specifically requested that specific theologians be added. If you need more specifics, I may be able to find them in my notes.




Theologian/Movement	Dates	Stance	Key Works & References
Karl Barth	1886–1968	God’s eternity includes the potentiality of time. Time flows from God’s Trinitarian nature; Christ’s incarnation unites eternity and temporality.	Church Dogmatics (God’s self-revelation in time); CIS Article.
Jürgen Moltmann	1926–	Tripartite creation (Original, Continuous, New). God’s creative act is ongoing, with creation inherently oriented toward eschatological fulfillment.	The Trinity and the Kingdom (creation from divine love); Biologos.
William Lane Craig	1949–	God is timeless sans creation, temporal post-creation. Time begins with the first event (Big Bang); God enters time relationally.	Time and Eternity; Biola University Blog.
Process Theology	20th century	Rejects creatio ex nihilo; God and world co-create. Time is the "process of becoming"; God is mutable and affected by creation.	Whitehead’s Process and Reality; Stanford Encyclopedia.
Augustine of Hippo	354–430	Time began with creation; God exists timelessly. Eternity is God’s "ever-present now."	Confessions (Book XI); The Literal Meaning of Genesis.
Thomas Aquinas	1225–1274	God’s timeless eternity transcends creation. Creatio ex nihilo affirms God’s absolute sovereignty.	Summa Theologiae (1.44.2).
Gregory of Nyssa	c. 335–c. 395	Christ’s incarnation was eternally planned. Creation reflects God’s pre-temporal wisdom.	On the Six Days of Creation.
Maximus the Confessor	580–662	Christ’s incarnation is the "preconceived goal" of creation. Eternal logoi (divine ideas) guide creation.	Ambigua; Questions to Thalassius.
Process Theologians	20th century	God and world co-evolve. Rejects static eternity; God is "fellow sufferer" with creation.	Hartshorne’s The Divine Relativity; Creation.com Critique.

Key Concepts from the Search Results

1. Karl Barth:
   • God’s eternity is Trinitarian, with Christ as the intersection of eternity and time (Source 1).
   • "Eternity becomes time without ceasing to be eternity" (Lexham Press).
2. Jürgen Moltmann:
   • Creation is a continuous, eschatological process (God in Creation).
   • God’s love for the world is rooted in the Trinity’s internal relationality (Religion Online).
3. William Lane Craig:
   • Relational theory of time: "Time begins with the first event" (Biola).
   • God transitions from timelessness to temporality at creation (Time and Eternity).
4. Process Theology:
   • Rejects creatio ex nihilo; God and world are interdependent (Stanford Encyclopedia).
   • "To be is to create" (Hartshorne).

Contrasting Views

• Classical Theism (Augustine, Aquinas):
  • God is timeless, immutable, and unaffected by time.
• Process Theology:
  • God is temporal, mutable, and co-creates with the world.
• Barth/Moltmann:
  • Bridge classical and modern views, emphasizing Christ’s role in uniting eternity and time.

For example, while Craig argues God enters time at creation, Process Theology asserts God always exists in time alongside the world.

James Johnson

I was banned for this very thing, talking about theology…. How is this post any different then comments I made disagreeing with theological topics?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363209#Comment_1363209

I am trying to teach Logos/Verbum users how to think about time as an element of Biblical events. I have carefully referenced multiple theological positions without taking a position myself and to offer references with minimal interpretation. How would you suggest I handle the use of "time" in Bible references that are outside our understanding of created time? Pretending they don't exist is not a viable option. What are your suggestions as to how to remain theologically neutral?

As for your specific case, sorry but I don't recognize the thread knowing only your name. I suspect the difference lies in "disagreeing" - I have taken no position nor promoted a position rather I presented a breadth of positions limited primarily by my limited knowledge of options.

Aaron Hamilton

How is this post any different then comments I made disagreeing with theological topics?

@James Johnson Escalating when asked to tone it down is the wrong response.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363209#Comment_1363209

I'm of the opinion that it is a bit off; but in the other way. I think people should have the ability to discuss theology. Maybe a dedicated off-topic place or something. But that would require a generous amount of moderation and risk to company reputation; and what would be the benefit of this effort, when there are social media websites for those debates anyway.

Someone like this Mr. Smith who is educated on things, I would welcome what they have to say, if I agree or not. I would also insist on the ability to challenge things, if posts are allowed then challenges should be too.

If not, then how would this company publish their own theological teachings, some of the content even fed directly into the software app. That's pretty one-sided if you ask me. Such is the nature of power I suppose. The victors write the history books after all.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363188#Comment_1363188

I should have studied your references before saying anything.

My answer is the same when people claim this or that religion is older than Christianity. I reply with it's pretty hard to go back further than "the beginning".

The 'Answers In Genesis' ministry teaches that Genesis is the most important book. That we don't have a gospel without it, or anything else. How does God have authority and power to judge and to grant everlasting life without also being the Creator and maintainer of all things.

The word "the" destroys the multiple universes theory, being singular. "Beginning" destroys claims of anything existing outside or apart from God, including simulation theory. "Heaven and Earth" directly references the two and only two realms in existence. 1 John, referencing Genesis, destroys the claim that Jesus Christ is not God. The plants being made before the sun destroys the gap theory.

I will have a look at your references, but I'm swamped right now. I've bitten off more than I can chew with this, sorry about that.

MJ. Smith

@ASUNDER

Be cautious when presenting the position of any particular group. I know it is a real balancing act to present someone's position without appearing to support/refute it.

I am genuinely surprised by the reaction to this post, especially since I used quotes in the post header as an acknowledgement that many of the ways these Bible passages are discussed explicitly reject the idea that time has meaning in this context. I fear I may have created a monumental task for myself if I am to understand why this particular post created such a response.

James Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363210#Comment_1363210

It clearly states do not discuss….we can't be one sided here. You are an MVP and should be held to a higher standard. You just made a whole topic on theology when the rules clearly state to "use one of the many web forums or focused groups"…. To say you have not taken any theological stance does not give you the privilege to start a theological post. Rules are rules for a reason, and this could spark a debate.

What if for example I disagree with everything you stated and start debating over it, then get banned again? wouldn't you feel bad that it was you initially breaking the rule "no discussion" that caused me to debate and thus get banned yet again?

I am just pointing out that if one user is told not to do something, then all users should be held to that same standard, especially someone with almost 60k posts.

And then to warn another person of breaking rules is just crazy to me. YOU started this thread. Common now..

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363218#Comment_1363218

The rules are the rules. I've acknowledged I was in the wrong, and even repented of it. But now to see this? … I have to call double standard on this post.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363228#Comment_1363228

My intention was only to answer your question. It wasn't the discussing or disagreeing that resulted in the ban, but the ensuing response.

That said, I'll admit to not having taken the time to read this thread thoroughly. But if there was a particular comment or thought that rubbed you the wrong way, I would encourage you to point it out.

James Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363222#Comment_1363222

I 100% agree, and think that logos should implement some sort of forum separated to this topic so each denomination can talk about their stance in the forums. There is nothing wrong with it, if its done respectfully however, rules are rules and I was banned a few months ago for talking about theology on the forums.

At the end of the day its about fairness. Either uphold the rule, or remove it all together, or create for us a space that allows it.

If we have a separate forum for healthy debate and challenge, to see how it plays out, and go from there I think that would be awesome. This post could even be the start of it, and moved to that forum, if created. I would like to respond to this post differently but I am at risk of being banned again, and I wont be baited into that.

James Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363229#Comment_1363229

Nothing rubbed me the wrong way, in fact, I find the OP to be very knowledgeable and provide interesting concepts, however I can not engage because I am at risk of being banned if I disagree with something, or affirm something to do with my own theology.

The perfect example is in the OP's response to another member posting in THIS thread…

So imagine if I were to disagree with something and address that, how that would go for me? I am already skating on thin ice.

I think that logos should give us another forum where these types of conversations are permitted and warn the user that they are not of the position or take responsibility for anyone else's beliefs, and thus held accountable etc. and just let us have this space..

People too easily get offended. At least this way a member wouldn't be forced to see these posts in the regular forums and have to actually click into the forum and possibly sign or check mark some sort of acknowledgement stating they could be offended or whatever..

MJ. Smith

@James Johnson

I have already explained that from my perspective I have not discussed theology only hermeneutics. I should hope that is accurate as I know little theology but a great deal about hermeneutics. I genuinely did not know that this would spark a debate and I still am totally baffled as to why it has. To me simply reading Ephesians 1:4 raises the question that I have asked so obviously that I can't imagine not asking the question. I have not attempted to answer the question, only to raise it. Beyond that, I have no desire to argue with you; I would rather spend my time trying to understand why asking this particular question created such unexpected results.

Aaron Hamilton

I have already explained that from my perspective I have not discussed theology only hermeneutics.

@MJ. Smith I think this statement is important. Perhaps it would be beneficial to readers for certain tips of the day to explain why the following questions are important for hermeneutics. It may not always be as clear to others as it is to you, and understanding your perspective would allow the reader to better apply the information.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363233#Comment_1363233

I have been working through the posts on time (123 to present) adding a preface to the post clarifying the purpose of the post. This is in response to @Francis who convinced me that I was expecting too much recognition of structure. What I had not taken into account is the effect of dividing a single document into post-sized units. Your suggestion falls into a similar category, and I will try to take it into account. I will be most effective when I can anticipate possible reactions; I fear it will still be retroactive when the response blindsides me as much as this one did.

MJ. Smith

You have to love Logos. I ran a smart all search with the prompt Mike Heiser on things/events before the creation of time and got many references to Summa Theologica. So, I went back to Perplexity where I got this result:

Michael Heiser's work addresses several concepts related to events or entities that existed before the creation of time:

Divine Council: Heiser argues that God was speaking to a divine council in Genesis 1:26 when saying "let Us make man in Our image"4. This implies the existence of other divine beings before creation.

Sons of God: Heiser notes that "the sons of God" existed before creation, as mentioned in Job 38:76.

Foreknowledge: Heiser discusses God's foreknowledge of events, including those that didn't actually occur, suggesting divine knowledge preceding creation35.

Pre-existence of Christ: While not explicitly mentioned in the search results, Heiser's work generally affirms traditional Christian views on Christ's pre-existence.

Eternal divine plan: Heiser acknowledges God's plan and foreknowledge of events before they occur, though he argues this doesn't necessarily equate to predestination5.

Heiser's work emphasizes that these concepts should be understood within the ancient Near Eastern context of the biblical authors, rather than through later theological frameworks17.

Citations:

https://www.ordinarylifeextraordinarygod.org/post/pre-adamic-races-were-adam-and-eve-the-first-humans

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/question-answer/P80/michael-heiser-on-monotheism

https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/bdfy3n/michael_heisers_strawmen_of_reformed_theology/

https://www.heiserheresy.com

https://drmsh.com/predestination-and-free-will-a-summary-of-the-naked-bibles-position/

https://restitutio.org/2020/11/28/who-is-the-us-in-genesis-1-26/

https://drmsh.com/the-cosmology-of-genesis-1-and-the-old-testaments-pre-scientific-worldview/

Answer from Perplexity: pplx.ai/share

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuB8Sd0NAxE

I offer Mike Heiser as an example of someone who asked the same question as my post was suggesting you should ask. If one were to map the Bible across a timeline one needs three major divisions - (1) pre-Genesis 1:1 what I would normally call the eternal now (2) historical time (3) eschatological time. Without all 3 divisions, you have Bible verses that you can't handle. That is a hermeneutical issue. Options for handling pre-Genesis 1:1 have historically ranged from God totally outside time to God totally within time. Which option is chosen has both hermeneutical and theological consequences which is why I offer no evaluation of the options. The purpose of the post is simply to remind you that the timeline must handle such verses in some manner and to point you towards a variety of ways you may wish to explore to handle them.

Note that here by the use of the term "eternal now" I would say I am moving into theology and my personal position. In the teaching post I avoided referencing my personal position or any ranking of the options presented. I will be reviewing the introductory Post Issue to clarify the purpose of the post, assuming I can see where it went astray.

John

When I read the first post, I was looking for “How this relates to Logos software or resources” and did not see it. Quotations from various AI sources but not specifically from Logos search.

But I had no complaint. @MJ. Smith ’s posts are always informative and interesting. Now that I see the reaction, I do understand it. It is my view that the forums are more enjoyable when there is a liberty to freely express oneself, and thus I would not be quoting the rules against others.

On the other hand, I understand that there must be some moderation, at least enough to gently inform everyone of what the rules are in order to avoid total chaos.

I would err on the side of tolerance and thus probably would not be a good moderator. But Logos over many years has been very tolerant. I hope that this does not change.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363227#Comment_1363227

I didn't mean to discourage you or put you down with this.
It sucks when you put your soul into a work and then people just put you down for it.

One example of many: Way back I had put in like a month of solid work to make a really nice YouTube video. It was basically my first one with a voiceover. I was so excited for everyone to see what I did. I got basically no response to it, and eventually I got one comment that said "f**g trash".
I didn't make videos for like three years after that, and I still haven't made an update to that particular one.
So I know it's the worst when you put things out there and you just get punched in the head for trying. 😣
I just wanted to compare some of my own notes with you.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363230#Comment_1363230

Ya. Being able to express our views is one of the beauties of the internet.
Us keyboard warriors like to tell people how it is, and we have a mandate to make disciples. And the one who turns people to righteousness is wise.

But I also understand this software is a platform, not a publisher. It's like going on the YouTube forum and discussing the videos instead of how YouTube works. No, that's what the comment section is for. And this is why God invented Reddit. So we can see the full of extent of the depravity of unbridled heresies running rampant in the world. Some of the dumbest things I've ever encountered has been in the last few years. Things that twenty years ago I would never guess people would actually believe.

Bill

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363197#Comment_1363197

@MJ. Smith Thank you! I appreciate your response to my questions, for all the details and the links. Also for the post on Mike Heiser, all interesting scents for my beagle nose to track the rabbit🐰

I apologize to everyone for dropping firecracker in a hornet's nest.

I thought my question and your response was informational only and not intended to create a theological discussion.

MJ. Smith

@John

When I read the first post, I was looking for “How this relates to Logos software or resources” and did not see it. Quotations from various AI sources but not specifically from Logos search.

Thank you. I can understand this reaction although it made me laugh. It is not my fault that Logos fails miserably at this topic - even when directed towards Heiser. I have reworded the introduction to make explicit the use of Logos when it's search fails miserably. Also note, however, that the posts hang together. The obvious link to Logos may appear in the previous post especially since these posts are structured around the data Logos makes available to us.

My addition to the introductory paragraph

While the Logos search fails miserably at identifying the verses with a general query, if you know your Bible text, a Bible search for "before the foundation" for example, can help tease out examples. Milestone searches on the Bible references will identify commentaries on the passages. Searches on the name and topic keyword used by that person will identify theological discussions on a framework in which to understand the notion of time in this context.