Can someone clarify my Hebrew search result for me?

Kristin

I am sorry for such an ignorant question, but I need to use Logos to look for a specific verb, and I think I did it correctly, but what it said I searched for was unexpected.

I am thus providing a screenshot of my original search query and under that is what it said I searched for. The V must be verb, but that is the only part that I expected.

I would appreciate any clarity anyone is able to provide.

Thanks.

Kristin

Francis

The question marks are essentially filling the rest of the arguments with wildcards (any tense, any person, etc.) when a specific option is not selected under these categories. The S at the end seems to be there to include suffixed forms and might be specific to the SESB morphology.

Tip: I use copilot to find discussions on the forums on specific topics and find it more effective to locate such discussions than the inbuilt search. It's a good way to find answers to some questions. Other times, it will point you to other support articles. Either way, always check the sources (don't just go with the AI summary of its findings). Hopefully when the help center feature in Logos matures, it will become a suitable replacement and better option to find answers from within the app itself.

Kristin

The question marks are essentially filling the rest of the arguments with wildcards (any tense, any person, etc.) when a specific option is not selected under these categories. The S at the end seems to be there to include suffixed forms and might be specific to the SESB morphology.

Hi @Francis

I agree it looks like a suffix form, but as you can see from the actual hit results, these words don't have suffixes. Like Gen 21:8, for example.

While I think I can just delete the S and +, my concern is not only that I don't know what it means, but also since whatever it means it seems like it should also be a wildcard, since my search was every form of this word in the Qal.

Regarding copilot, I don't use that specifically, but I agree just googling something can often produce answers. I think I will try to hunt down and see if I can find a general chart of all of the Logos morphology symbols.

Kristin

Hi @Francis,

I should have found this before I responded, but apparently the Qal is sometimes "q" or "Q" as expected, but sometimes it is "a." For the times it is "a" you are correct that "S" is suffix, but am I misreading it, or not all these words have suffixes? And why was it there at all given my query?

Kenneth Neighoff

If you are searching for that verb just in the qal, use this search query- lemma.h:גדל@Va Doing this I gt 54 results in 51 verses.

Kristin

If you are searching for that verb just in the qal, use this search query- lemma.h:גדל@Va Doing this I gt 54 results in 51 verses.

Hi @Kenneth Neighoff,

Thanks for confirming this, and I am also getting those numbers after deleting the S and + symbols.

However, I am still confused, since as you can see from my screenshot, what you said is what I had searched. So why did Logos add the S? Or had I searched for that? And if so, where is it in my screenshot? This is the first time I am truly trying to work with a specific word, and how Logos handled it has been unexpected.

Kenneth Neighoff

Kristin,

I wish I knew how to answer your question. I used the web app for my search, and it should be less Morph categories that your screen shot. I will have to wait until I am home and can use my computer.

Francis

See the BK Mitchell post here. The S is automatically added by the search, like the question marks.

Darryl

I'm not sure if this is correct as I am new to Logos, but it looks like '+S' is the wild card designator for person (1p, 2p, 3p, unmarked). You can confirm this by selecting/deselecting the options for 'Person' to see how that changes the search syntax (as well as adjusting the categories before and after 'Person' to confirm that '+S' only refers to 'Person'). Likewise, scanning the results confirms this because there are at least 2p, 3p, and infinite absolutes (unmarked) in the research results. This seems to confirm that '+S' is the wild card for 'Person' (as you can specify person, '+S1', '+S2', '+S3', and unmarked '+SU').

Kristin

I'm not sure if this is correct as I am new to Logos, but it looks like '+S' is the wild card designator for person

Hi @Darryl,

Thanks for your response. I think part of why I find it so confusing is because S "sometimes" means that. When I looked up the morphology chart, Q can be a "Q" or "q" or "a" or "Z."

Likewise, an "S" can mean what you said, but it might also be a "Passive Participle" or "Hi?pilpel" etc.

I am sure once someone has the secret code memorized it is clear, but I am finding it difficult since the same letter can mean multiple things. (like S).

Andrew Batishko

The +S suffix was recently discussed here:

https://community.logos.com/discussion/246180/extra-characters-in-bhs-sesb-morphological-search

With a link to the code definitions on the wiki here: https://community.logos.com/kb/articles/2141-morphology-codes

Kristin

Hi @Andrew Batishko,

Thank you for posting that, and that is the link I had found as well. On that link, however, an S can mean multiple things, as well as other letters. So it can be kind of confusing.

MJ. Smith

@Vincent Setterholm

BHW and BHS SESB currently treat pronominal suffixes in the same 'segment' as the word they are attached to, and then have the suffix information tacked on to the end of the morph code. While LHB, AFAT and BHS/WIVU all split the pronominal suffixes out into separate segments. So if you're using only BHS SESB or BHW, you're going to miss out on some of our in-house data work that involves hanging data on individual segments. For example, we've done work disambiguating pronouns by tagging their referent (e.g. where 'him' or 'his' = Moses in some particular instance). You'll miss out on some of that context-sensitive information that comes not from the Hebrew Bible itself, but from our in-house ancillary databases, when you're working with databases that segment the text very differently than the LHB and AFAT. And this, then, is also a reason why one might keep BHS/WIVU around even if one had BHS/SESB - assuming BHS/WIVU gets an update at some point.

Yes, letters may have multiple meanings as they may be used in multiple columns. It is the column that determines what the letter means in context.

Kristin

Yes, letters may have multiple meanings as they may be used in multiple columns. It is the column that determines what the letter means in context.

Hi @MJ. Smith,

Ya, that much is clear. It is just that in addition to the letter, the order of the letters also matters, and so it takes awhile to get used to with a new system. (I have not ever personally seen a Qal stem as anything other than “Q” or qal”) so it just takes a minute.

Also, several of the letters have multiple symbols. So Qal is “a” and “q” and Qal passive is “Q” and “Z.” Further, “Q” is “Qal Passive” AND “Truly Qal Passive.” 

So I am sure it makes sense once someone is used to it, but it is just not particularly intuitive.

MJ. Smith

Order does not matter. One can specify multiple values for a column. Only the column matters to determine meaning of a letter within a particular morphological coding system.

morph.sesb.h:V[ab]??????+S finds Qal and Pi'el. I think when you said "order" you were referring to what I call "columns.,morph.sesb.h:V[ab]P??P??+S adds perfect and plural requirements - both requested by P but the meaning is distinguished by column.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

My resource title modifications has year prefix. Three Hebrew morphologies use "V" for verb while one uses "v". Three morphologies find 51 Qal verses while one finds 54 Qal verses.

LHB has publication year of 2012 while resource file shows 2023 update.

Keep Smiling 😊