Geneva Bible
Considering the Geneva Bible is arguably the most important Bible ever printed in the English language; I am amazed that it is not in Libronix! After investigation, it seems realistic that an interlinear version could actually be built using the same TR versions used for the Geneva Bible.
According to the latest copies of the NKJ, Biblical scholars are rethinking the validity of the eclectic CT; this is based on the underwhelming support that has not been found and the overwhelming support that continues to mount in favor of the Greek common texts.
I am not here to argue whether or not the Geneva Bible, that hundreds of people died for over a period of hundreds of years to protect, preserve and translate, is based on the most accurate Greek texts. I am just making the statement that is seems odd that Libronox has not paid much attention to this particular text.
Comments
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Ken Avery said:
Considering the Geneva Bible is arguably the most important Bible ever printed in the English language; I am amazed that it is not in Libronix! After investigation, it seems realistic that an interlinear version could actually be built using the same TR versions used for the Geneva Bible.
According to the latest copies of the NKJ, Biblical scholars are rethinking the validity of the eclectic CT; this is based on the underwhelming support that has not been found and the overwhelming support that continues to mount in favor of the Greek common texts.
I am not here to argue whether or not the Geneva Bible, that hundreds of people died for over a period of hundreds of years to protect, preserve and translate, is based on the most accurate Greek texts. I am just making the statement that is seems odd that Libronox has not paid much attention to this particular text.
Support for the critical text is not so underwhelming as you would pretend, nor is support for other texts so very overwhelming. Even should the CT be displaced, it will not be by the TR which is a corrupt text by any standard. If it were to be displaced, it would be by the Byz Maj, but I don't see that happening -- not any time soon nor any time late. Hav ing said that, I have no objection to the Geneva Bible being published -- "Let a thousand schools compete." My only purpose in writing in response is to note that you are off base in your presuppositions and have been "picked off" [baseball terms for those not from the US -- when a runner is caught without having his foot on the base and is touched by the fielding team with the ball, he is said to be "picked off.")
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Support for the critical text is not so underwhelming as you would pretend, nor is support for other texts so very overwhelming. Even should the CT be displaced, it will not be by the TR which is a corrupt text by any standard. If it were to be displaced, it would be by the Byz Maj, but I don't see that happening -- not any time soon nor any time late. Hav ing said that, I have no objection to the Geneva Bible being published -- "Let a thousand schools compete." My only purpose in writing in response is to note that you are off base in your presuppositions and have been "picked off" [baseball terms for those not from the US -- when a runner is caught without having his foot on the base and is touched by the fielding team with the ball, he is said to be "picked off.")
Now what is this? Ken(TR) at the hands of an angry puritanical textual critic George Somsel.[6]
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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George,
This post is not about yours nor my opinion; it is about history, it is about Libronix giving respect to an effort that took hundreds of years and hundreds of lives to complete. The effort and lives given that culminated in the Geneva Bible is not in question; it is recorded in history along with the fruit of the Reformers and the men who's shoulders they stood on.
The least we can do is honor their sacrifice and publish their work, considering; their work, had a profound impact on the world that exists today. I say this work is just as worthy of publication as the "Message" and all the other translations that are not considered perfect by some. How can people contrast the differences in underlying texts if all they are ever offered is one opinion, the opinion of the CT folks.
Are the CT translations so frail that they cannot stand side-by-side with possibly the most accurate English Bible translation and be examined; this raises more concerns than answers, why hide all of the common text Bibles and mainly produce CT Bibles? Oddly, the KJV is a "Latinized" version of the Geneva Bible and that is the only real translation that is offered to those of us who do not see the "science" behind the CT.
Why are we not given Reformation Bible choices and given hundreds of CT translations? This stinks of censorship, I can purchase the Bibles and find plenty of disagreement between scholars to know that the matter is not settled; though, in Libronix I am not given choices.
The question is why not the Geneva Bible?
God bless you and keep you,
Ken
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Ken Avery said:
The question is why not the Geneva Bible?
I agree that the Geneva Bible is interesting for historical reasons. I don't see a reason not to publish it.
Instead of complaining that it's not published, why not simply request it? But why stop there? Why not the Tyndale and Wycliffe Bibles?
If memory serves, it has been requested before. So far there hasn't been much interest it.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Ted Hans said:
Now what is this? Ken(TR) at the hands of an angry puritanical textual critic George Somsel.
Ted,
How can this be? The Puritans carried the Geneva Bible with them. "Puritanical textual critic" is an oxymoron, is it not?
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Matthew C Jones said:Ted Hans said:
Now what is this? Ken(TR) at the hands of an angry puritanical textual critic George Somsel.
Ted,
How can this be? The Puritans carried the Geneva Bible with them. "Puritanical textual critic" is an oxymoron, is it not?
I stand corrected Matthew. I was speaking functionally & not ontologically, i do see the irony though[:D]Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ken Avery said:
This post is not about yours nor my opinion; it is about history, it is about Libronix giving respect to an effort that took hundreds of years and hundreds of lives to complete. The effort and lives given that culminated in the Geneva Bible is not in question; it is recorded in history along with the fruit of the Reformers and the men who's shoulders they stood on.
The least we can do is honor their sacrifice and publish their work, considering; their work, had a profound impact on the world that exists today. I say this work is just as worthy of publication as the "Message" and all the other translations that are not considered perfect by some. How can people contrast the differences in underlying texts if all they are ever offered is one opinion, the opinion of the CT folks.
Ken,
To a pragmatist (like George) defining the value of a book by the lives sacrificed for it doesn't go very far. Consider modern day Jihadists. The fruit of the believers who read the Geneva Bible should carry some weight. The real beauty of both the Geneva Bible and the King James Bible is the underlying text. (Although the English rendering is also exquisite.)
The very fact we have current "new" scholarship that constantly contradicts last decade's "new" scholarship proves the fallibility of the scholars. It is easy to see the "science" of textual criticism requires constant revisions and tools for critical analysis. Gone are the days Bible study was done with a Bible, pen and blank noteook. Those likely to use the Geneva Bible probably won't be buying as much additional tools to interpret the "true meaning" of the text.
Still, having the Geneva Bible in our Libronix library would be welcome by many users (for whatever reasons.) An interlinear should not be difficult as you point out. I would enjoy both very much. But I probably ascribe too great a respect for the Geneva Bible compared to others on the forum.
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Richard DeRuiter said:Ken Avery said:
The question is why not the Geneva Bible?
I agree that the Geneva Bible is interesting for historical reasons. I don't see a reason not to publish it.
Instead of complaining that it's not published, why not simply request it? But why stop there? Why not the Tyndale and Wycliffe Bibles?
If memory serves, it has been requested before. So far there hasn't been much interest it.
You make a great point; how does one make this sort of request?
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Mee-thinks you just did!! The unseen Logos gods are watching and taking notice. (Right Logos!?)
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Ken Avery said:
You make a great point; how does one make this sort of request?
Well, you could do it right here in the Suggestions forum (they are monitored by Logos staff). To make it clear that you are making a request, instead of continuing this discussion, start a new thread. Many I've seen state the request in the subject line. Something like: Request: Geneva Bible in Libronix Format, would be one way to do it.
Then keep your request simple and to the point. Justify your request with a couple of brief non-provocative statements (it's amazing how these threads can get hi-jacked to promote personal agendas or points of view - hence the 'non-provocative' adjective). There is a lot of interest in Puritan studies that have been expressed in this forum (more so in the past on the newsgroups), and the Geneva Bible seems like an indispensable tool for such studies. Anyway, I don't want to write your request for you.
Please note, that even if no Logos staff respond in the forum, your request will be seen and noted by someone at Logos. Often such requests are made multiple times before anything (visible) happens.
You may be interested to know that the Geneva Study Bible notes are available as a PBB from www.stilltruth.com (search for it there), though I didn't see the Geneva Bible itself there. You do need the PBB reader to view these books (only available with boxed sets at this time).
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Randy Hartman said:
Mee-thinks you just did!! The unseen Logos gods are watching and taking notice. (Right Logos!?)
[:D]
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Ken Avery said:
This stinks of censorship
There's no censorship going on. We've just been very busy. We already offer a dizzying array of TR and Byzantine Greek texts for your study and comparison purposes. I'd love to see the Geneva and the Bishop's Bible, if for no other reason than those were the Bibles readily available to Shakespeare, and might help me spot biblical allusions in his works.
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VincentSetterholm said:Ken Avery said:
This stinks of censorship
There's no censorship going on. We've just been very busy. We already offer a dizzying array of TR and Byzantine Greek texts for your study and comparison purposes. I'd love to see the Geneva and the Bishop's Bible, if for no other reason than those were the Bibles readily available to Shakespeare, and might help me spot biblical allusions in his works.
Thanks, i will add an Amen to that. Does that mean we are likely to this happen ( Geneva and the Bishop's Bible)?
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:
Does that mean we are likely to this happen ( Geneva and the Bishop's Bible)?
It means these were on a short list of resources we've recently discussed. But I don't know where they ultimately fell in the priority list.
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VincentSetterholm said:Ted Hans said:
Does that mean we are likely to this happen ( Geneva and the Bishop's Bible)?
It means these were on a short list of resources we've recently discussed. But I don't know where they ultimately fell in the priority list.
Thank you very much for the response. Kind Regard & Every blessings.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Not to be ungrateful for all of the wonderful Greek texts; I was really hoping to read some of the most important English Bible Translations ever written in English, in English. The Bishops Bible is not that interesting considering it's sorted past; I am more interested in English Bibles founded on Tyndale's translation and the underlying text the Reformers so desperately endeavored to preserve; the Geneva Bible is the crowning glory of their sacrifice.
Anyone familiar with the history of the English Bible, the different translations and the series of translations leading up to the Geneva Bible will notice the conspicuous no-inclusion of these great works in Libronix. My list would be: Wycliffe, Tyndale, Matthew's, and Geneva; this is a nice representation of English Bibles based on the Vulgate and non-Alexandrian Greek texts.
Fortunately several other Bible Software companies have picked up the ball that Libronix so obviously dropped; for whatever reason, it is not important to me why, it is just conspicuously missing.
God bless you and keep you,
Ken0 -
VincentSetterholm said:Ted Hans said:
Does that mean we are likely to this happen ( Geneva and the Bishop's Bible)?
It means these were on a short list of resources we've recently discussed. But I don't know where they ultimately fell in the priority list.
Yes, thank you for the response; you have my apologies for the little chip on my shoulder, the more I learn the more defensive I get [:)]
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Ken Avery said:
Not to be ungrateful for all of the wonderful Greek texts; I was really hoping to read some of the most important English Bible Translations ever written in English, in English. The Bishops Bible is not that interesting considering it's sorted past
What do you mean? Did it get mixed with the AV?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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The Bishops Bible was an attempt to bring the translation back to the Vulgate in opposition to Tyndale's Greek.
The official decree from James VIII was to make a "correct translation" using the proper "Bishop's Bible" as the foundation; thus, the KJV that eliminates the bad stuff in the margins and brings the translation closer to the Vulgate.
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George Somsel said:Ken Avery said:
Not to be ungrateful for all of the wonderful Greek texts; I was really hoping to read some of the most important English Bible Translations ever written in English, in English. The Bishops Bible is not that interesting considering it's sorted past
What do you mean? Did it get mixed with the AV?
"Sordid" past, George. & Ken. See how we lose the beautiful English by dumbing down our newest translations?
I just can't wait to see the vocabulary list for NIV2038! [:|] All 18 words of it.
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Matthew C Jones said:George Somsel said:Ken Avery said:
Not to be ungrateful for all of the wonderful Greek texts; I was really hoping to read some of the most important English Bible Translations ever written in English, in English. The Bishops Bible is not that interesting considering it's sorted past
What do you mean? Did it get mixed with the AV?
"Sordid" past, George. & Ken. See how we lose the beautiful English by dumbing down our newest translations?
I understood precisely. My point was that one should not use a word if he doesn't understand it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ken Avery said:
Please forgive my ignorance, I am merely a plowboy.
The problem is not ignorance. The problem is pretending to know when you do not. If you wish to use a word, be sure you know its meaning or learn its meaning before using it. Otherwise, use a word you do know.
BTW: Is that picture from Petra?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
The problem is not ignorance. The problem is pretending to know when you do not.
Sometimes the problem is tact.
Ken, you're not only forgiven, you're understood and appreciated.
George, Ken used the word correctly. He only misspelled it."Sorted" and "sordid" are a homophones, after all - at least nearly so in American English.
But let's not get in a fight over words, what they mean, or how to spell (pronounce?) them. We know what Ken meant.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Matthew C Jones said:
Puritanical textual critic
Okay - enough about Puritans. They kicked my great-great-great-great-great ...grandmother out of the Boston colony - she was banned until the late 1940's but at least she was finally allowed back... she somehow never showed up. (Think Anne Marbury Hutchinson ... and I can claim Rebecca Norse/Nurse of Salem fame as well).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Richard DeRuiter said:
George, Ken used the word correctly. He only misspelled it."Sorted" and "sordid" are a homophones, after all - at least nearly so in American English.
But let's not get in a fight over words, what they mean, or how to spell (pronounce?) them. We know what Ken meant.
Yes, we all know what Ken meant. I know what George meant, too. I understand and appreciate & wholeheartedly agree with everything Ken has expressed in this thread. I do not accept George's verdict that people "pretend" to know things. I was reading graduate level texts in the 6th grade. I had no peers to discuss these subjects with in English. Therefore, I had quite a few words in my vocabulary that I would mispronounce. This is quite common in a reading-centric education. Our plough-boy brother (Ken) apparently has a verbal-centric education evidenced by his correct usage and understandable misspelling. It is nothing to apologize for, and is definitely not "pretending!" .......If anything, it proves his point we can really benefit from having the rich language of the Geneva Bible.
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Ken Avery said:
The Bishops Bible is not that interesting considering it's sorted past
I don't know it's sordid past but THAT makes it sound interesting to me. [6]
But if we're going for historic value, I'd vote for the psalters:
1) Vesparian Psalter
2) Bede's Abbreviated Psalter
3) Eadwine's Canterbury Psalter
4) Paris Psalter
5) Richard Rolle of Hampole
6) West Midland Psalter
7) Geneva Psalter
8) Scottish Psalter
9) Tate-Brady
....
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Geneva bible would be cool I suppose. I have a dead wood version. The reformed church (today, for the most part) is using ESV and NASB and neither bible is based on TR. I truly believe that the TR is of great use and I know of some KJV only people. With that said, a Geneva bible would be great for those who value that bible as their primary source, a comparison source, or a historical source and I support the idea of it, but I wouldn't purchase it for me.
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Chris said:
I truly believe that the TR is of great use and I know of some KJV only people. With that said, a Geneva bible would be great for those who value that bible as their primary source, a comparison source, or a historical source and I support the idea of it, but I wouldn't purchase it for me.
In addition to the eSword module, I've got it in audio version and leather bound study Bible, Sometimes I carry it to my IFB KJVO church. Some strange glances have been thrown my way. [^o)]
I really enjoy the Geneva Bible. But then I like reading Alexander Pope too.
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George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:George Somsel said:Ken Avery said:
Not to be ungrateful for all of the wonderful Greek texts; I was really hoping to read some of the most important English Bible Translations ever written in English, in English. The Bishops Bible is not that interesting considering it's sorted past
What do you mean? Did it get mixed with the AV?
"Sordid" past, George. & Ken. See how we lose the beautiful English by dumbing down our newest translations?
I understood precisely. My point was that one should not use a word if he doesn't understand it.
Good, I learned a new word here. I tried to make sense from the "sorted past" [:)] The word "sordid" I have never noticed before. Thanks.
Bohuslav
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George Somsel said:Ken Avery said:
Please forgive my ignorance, I am merely a plowboy.
The problem is not ignorance. The problem is pretending to know when you do not. If you wish to use a word, be sure you know its meaning or learn its meaning before using it. Otherwise, use a word you do know.
BTW: Is that picture from Petra?
George,
The fact that I used the wrong word in the proper context; that is, as Richard put it, a homophone of the correct word does not indicate lack of knowledge of the word, It simply means I used the wrong spelling of the word in the proper context. Making fun of people who have dyslexic tendencies is not very nice; though, in your case, I understand the need to divert attention away from the main theme and focus on the small and insignificant details of one's mistake,
My journey is much different than yours, I seek the truth; whereas, you appear to seek to be correct, In this particular case, you have succeeded, congratulations, you are absolutely correct about the proper use and spelling of the word sorted (to sort) verses sordid.
The picture is of Petra and inspired by Matthew 24:16, Revelation 12:6 and 14, Isaiah 33:13-16; 41:17-20; 65:8-16 and Micah 2:12 as explained by Dr Arnold Fructenbaum in his book "Footsteps of the Messiah", simple reading even a plowboy can understand: http://www.logos.com/products/details/3034
God bless you and keep you,
Ken0 -
Vincent,
IF Logos encodes the Geneva bible into the Libronix format, please do not forget the notes!
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James W Bennett said:
Vincent,
IF Logos encodes the Geneva bible into the Libronix format, please do not forget the notes!
Oh yes, Please do include the notes.
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Matthew C Jones said:James W Bennett said:
Vincent,
IF Logos encodes the Geneva bible into the Libronix format, please do not forget the notes!
Oh yes, Please do include the notes.
[:D]
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Yes Geneva Bible by itself and not in a package of 20 bibles (like is currently on community pricing) [Y]
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Hey everybody,
I ran across the Geneva Bible in one of those old Libronix collecions. It is Essentially [;)] a very cheap collection in a boxed set and can be found all over the internet.......
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Super Tramp said:
Hey everybody,
I ran across the Geneva Bible in one of those old Libronix collecions. It is Essentially
a very cheap collection in a boxed set and can be found all over the internet.......IF you have the unlock codes (or what ever it is called for the libronix version) with the E4 disk
I have it and I agree with the other posters, the notes would be nice, but I do not forsee that as being included in the collecion
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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