Buying Software Second-Hand

When buying the software second-hand, can someone who is not the original owner (i.e. its not registered in his name) sell the software as long as it comes with a valid serial number and activation code?

I'm asking because I found an auction on a popular auction website for Scholar's Gold (but the picture has Series X), and the seller says he has a "a valid serial and activation code", but when corresponding with him, he stated the license is not in his name, and he does not know whose name it is in. He also didn't seem to know very much about the software.

I'm thinking that since he has an activation code already that the software has already been activated, and since its in someone else's name, he has no right to be selling it.

What do ya'll think?

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Comments

Kevin Becker

To transfer a license to another person the owner is supposed to call Customer service and pay a $20 fee.

If this person is not named on the original license I find it unlikely that he has a legitimate copy or bought his second-hand and didn't do the proper transfer process then.

Greg

Kevin,

That's what I'm thinking. I wonder if there is a way to head this off so Logos doesn't have to deal with whoever wins the auction when they can't actually make use of the resources.

NetworkGeek

Call Customer Servicve and tell them about it. They also know who it is registered to.

Rene Atchley

I would highly recommend calling customer service on this issue. I have transferred software in the past and customer service is key to that process...especially since Logos keeps meticulous control of their software through the central validation process of the of their servers. The only reason I have a logos piece of software now is the pain in the rump transferring the software from one person to another. Investigate, coordinate, and call Logos or you could be buying a problem in an auction.

Matthew C Jones

What do ya'll think?

I have purchased used Libronix software from said auction site several times. The only thing of real value that you want to purchase is a legitimate transferable license. The fact is, you could download every file on all 8 CDs directly from the Logos ftp server for free but neither that download nor the CD set will do you any good without the accompanying license to unlock the resources. I agree with Kevin, I seriously doubt you can get these resources unlocked if the Seller does not have a license in his own name.

Another thing to be cautious about is (I am NOT saying it applies in this specific auction listing you are considering) sometimes an unscrupulous Logos user will offer a CD set for sale telling you "just keep it registered in my name" so he can continue using it simultaneously. Logos servers can see what geographical location a computer logs on from. (And this fact doesn't get missed by an omniscient God either!)

Specifics you need to know when considering a second hand purchase of Logos resources:

"Used" Nelson eBible collections are usually registered in someone's name already and the savings buying them used is swallowed up by the transfer fee. (IF they are even registered to the Seller. I have purchased two that were not and lost out.)
I bought the Anchor Bible Dictionary second hand for a SUPER price. Right after I installed it Logos put it on sale for the same price I gave for it. I had to go through the transfer process and my purchase is not reflected in my Orders page. Oft times you are not saving money buying used
It is recommended to confirm a Seller actually has a transferable license to the product you are considering. This can be done by asking the Seller their Logos user name and calling Logos Customer Service to confirm the license. Don't worry, Logos will not transfer a license without confirming it with the owner first. (Usually this is proactively initiated by Logos to prevent someone misrepresenting themselves as a legitimate owner.)
All titles under one license must be transferred together. You cannot buy a package deal and dump individual titles you don't want, nor can you sell a collection license and hold back one or two titles.
Buying cheap titles second hand will not save you anything unless you purchase a lot of individual titles from one Seller and transfer the licenses in one Customer Service transaction. The transfer fee is not per license but per Customer Service action.

The only reason I have a logos piece of software now is the pain in the rump transferring the software from one person to another.

I will be happy to pay the transfer fee if you really hate it that much.[;)] All you would need to do is answer one inquiry from Logos Customer Service!

nicky crane

. Logos servers can see what geographical location a computer logs on from. (And this fact doesn't get missed by an omniscient God either!)

Help! I log in from different countries! [:O] But presumably that would only be a problem if there were log-ins in my name from different parts of the world simultaneously! In fact Logos know I have an Albanian and an English address. And our omniscient Lord knows about that too! [;)]

Matthew C Jones

Help! I log in from different countries! But presumably that would only be a problem if there were log-ins in my name from different parts of the world simultaneously!

Correct. It is those simultaneous log-ins that attract attention. Even if you travel a lot and log in from many different states, your computer has a specific MAC address ( Media Access Control ) that remains static because it is assigned to your network adapter. That is one way the FBI can identify which specific computer at a given address has been used in a crime. And although it is possible to spoof MAC addresses, it isn't worth the penalty when you get caught --- and you would. (Not you personally, Nicky. [:|] )

Matthew C Jones

Incidentally, Microsoft has a huge running list of pirated install codes and blocks installation attempts that use blacklisted licenses. It is kind of obvious when a guy installs one license 2000 times in one month from every imaginable location around the world. I suppose Logos could monitor and intervene if one license were installed on 300 machines logging in from all over the place. No "insider" knowledge here, I just suppose.

nicky crane

And although it is possible to spoof MAC addresses, it isn't worth the penalty when you get caught --- and you would. (Not you personally, Nicky. )

Thanks for the warning, Matthew! I'll take it to heart [:P]

DAL

When I was looking for reviews about logos I came across various websites that offered the illegal unlocks for the Spanish software along with all of the Gold series X books. I immediately reported those to Logos. What really made me upset was that they were thanking God for that website that had given them access to such a wonderful tool. They had "The end justifies the means" slogan. Wow to them that call evil good! (Isaiah 5:20)

Darcy S. Van Horn

Correct. It is those simultaneous log-ins that attract attention.

Interesting and helpful discussion. I have a question related to what Matthew mentioned regarding simultaneous log-ins. I often use the church desktop and my own laptop at the same time when I'm working in my study at the church, and often run Logos on both computers. Is it a problem if I run Logos from two computers simultaneously (both computers are only used by me, and the Logos software on both is registered to me)? Is Logos going to think that one of the computers is someone else running a pirated copy? Any feedback would be helpful. Thanks.

Darcy

Matthew C Jones

I came across various websites that offered the illegal unlocks

Yeah, it is mind-boggling to me.

But Logos 4 will have a lot less of that going on because of the design of the software. I am aware there are pirating efforts to circumvent L4 also but I think they will meet with less success than before. My real question would be, "How can God bless your Bible study if it is done with stolen software?"

To get back on the original topic: It is perfectly legal and ethical to buy second-hand Logos software as long as you get a registrable license with it. If the Seller does not like or use the resource they may part with it cheaply. Also, the Seller may need the money more than the resource at the moment. Good deals can be found but my majority of savings come from scouring the Logos website, subscribing to all the email alerts and reading the blog faithfully. And if it is not on sale and I just "got to have it," I give my salesman a call and beg for a deal. [:D]

David Ogilbee

What if the seller is selling a certain set of commentaries or logos resources and says they are brand new, factory sealed? Is the license registration still an issue? (The seller's feedback is all very positive 99.6%)

Matthew C Jones

What if the seller is selling a certain set of commentaries or logos resources and says they are brand new, factory sealed? Is the license registration still an issue? (The seller's feedback is all very positive 99.6%)

You should be safe but there is still a possibility you are not.

I recall an investigation of Office D**** employees re-wrapping software in the back room after copying install codes. Factory sealed can be spoofed.
If an install code sticker is visible on the outside of the packaging it is possible it has been used. I purchased some of the Fortress Press paperback titles that include the Libronix CD. The CD's were still sealed in the book but some had been registered already. The serial numbers were on a visible sticker.
You should ask the Seller to stand behind their claim it is unregistered or you should be willing to lose the purchase price if they won't. Buying through PayPal gives you certain guarantees as to the description and condition. If an item is counterfeit or used but you purchased it described as "new", you can pursue a refund. Refunds are only successful if there is money in the Seller's account that PayPal can recover.
Also, I had a Seller mail me a piece of registered mail lacking the CD. When I filed my claim with PayPal the Seller produced documentation of a delivery to my address. I could not prove the box was empty so I lost my money.
In spite of all these cautions, I have found a lot of great second-hand buys on Logos/Libronix resources over the years. I do want to point out benefits of buying directly from Logos that you don't get with other Sellers:
You have a money-back guarantee in case you discover the resource is not what you expected it to be. Other sellers can't offer you that once you open the package.
You have a perpetual record of the purchase in case you lose that CD. The Orders page in your Logos account has a download link of all products you have purchased directly from Logos. Your third party purchases are not added to this list. It is easy to forget you own something in Logos when your library starts to get into the thousands of books.

Bottom line is try to deal only with reputable sellers. Try to buy through safe venues. (I have purchased via snail mail and USPS money orders on rare instances.) Sometimes the cheapest price is not always the best deal. I purchased the John Piper Collection a few weeks back from Logos during the 12 Days of Logos Sale. Then I was convinced by Praiser's forum thread to buy the Christmas 2010 Master Collection. Praiser's hard work on the spreadsheet revealed the John Piper Collection was all but completely duplicated within the Master Collection. (Only two books shy of complete.) I contacted Logos Customer Service explaining I did not need two copies of each Piper book. They were very helpful in refunding the purchase. If I had bought the Piper Collection anywhere else I would still own two copies of each book and not received the refund. As much criticism as I get for being over-enthusiastic about Logos, it is based on personal experience

disclaimer: I must confess, I have purchased many resources from other-than Logos.com.

David Ogilbee

Hi Matthew,

thanks for responding to my message. Regarding this independent seller that is selling sets of "brand new, factory sealed" commentaries for Logos on an internet auction site, I wrote an email to this seller and asked why he had so many of this 1 specific set of commentaries (CD-ROM Logos add-on) to sell. He said he has many copies because he has an account with the publisher. I then asked him if the commentary sets he is selling comes with a new activation code/serial number, or if all of these items he is selling is going to come up under his own license as was discussed at the very top of "buying second hand" forum.

This was the seller's response to my question:

"The commentary collection cd-rom that I have available includes its own serial number, so each person who buys this product from me receives a new product with a unique serial number. Thanks"

So based on this information, does it sound like a safe buy? Is it possible for the items to each have a new serial number but still show up as being owned under this seller's logos account?

Thanks for all your help, I appreciate it! If I do end up making this purchase, I will definitely use Paypal.

- David

Matthew C Jones

This was the seller's response to my question:

"The commentary collection cd-rom that I have available includes its own serial number, so each person who buys this product from me receives a new product with a unique serial number. Thanks"

Is it possible for the items to each have a new serial number but still show up as being owned under this seller's logos account?

David,

There was once a time (back in Libronix 3 days) when people could pre-order multiple copies of a Libronix resource at significant savings and re-sell the unopened packages for a tidy profit once they were released. There were some jokes in these forums about it being a retirement investment plan. This was all possible because the CDs were not registered in anyone's name upon sale but upon installation. Therefore, no transfer fees were needed and no license transfers took place. This is still the case with third party publishers like Nelson's eBible & IVP's few titles. (I wonder if Baker intends to resurrect the same with their titles.) Just be aware that DIY installation of resources from CDs will usually (always?) require a Libronix installation or the help of Logos Customer Service to enable Logos 4 downloads. That makes it a bummer when the CD arrives in the mail on the weekend. (I keep a Libronix machine up & running for this & other reasons.)

So based on this information, does it sound like a safe buy?

I've already posted several benefits to buying directly from Logos earlier in this thread. I will almost always defer to my Logos salesman for a purchase, almost always. I'm not telling you to where to buy ... [:#] ... But the only way to get any safer than your proposed transaction is to buy directly from Logos.

I wish you fruitful Bible study with the best software made for that purpose.

Erik

I wanted to remind anyone who might be interested in purchasing a used resource CD to be very careful with whom you are dealing with and to make sure that you ask the seller if they are the original owner or have some assurance from the original owner that they will release the license to you.

I purchased a used resource from a seller on Amazon and when Logos kindly contacted them directly for me (I was also informed that normally you as the buyer must have the license holder contact Logos before they will transfer the license), the owner of the license declined to release the resource and further indicated that they had no idea how I received the CD. I’m not sure what to think, but either the owner was robbed without knowing it or they are telling a bit of a lie and didn’t realize they too would lose their license if they sold the physical CD.

In any event, Logos has been great about this and I am seeking a refund from the seller. Also, to clarify what I was told by Logos, the transfer fee is only $20 per batch if all of the licenses come from the same account holder. If your request has licenses from different Logos licensees, the transfer fee is $20 per unique license holder. Since I was attempting to transfer resources from two different licensees, the fee should be $40 if both transfers had been successful.

EDIT: The seller got back to me and indicated that they purchased the CD at a Salvation Army auction of donated materials. The license holder didn't mention to Logos that it had been stolen, so my guess is they didn't realize that they would have to give up their license as well. Looks like I"m just going to go ahead and pay for the resource download. I'll only buy new CD resources from now on if they are available.

Mark Smith

Eric, while you resurrected a truly old thread, yours is a good cautionary experience and should help others maintain a proper amount of caution. Thank you for sharing it.