No more access to purchased content
Comments
-
Donnie, yes, I am afraid that someone has missed the point... but in this case it is actually everyone here who is worried about loosing the logos app... and the point is that it is impossible to purchase anything from the app, or from logos and put it in the app. It may sound like semantics here, but you can not purchase books for your ipone/ipad, you can only purchase them for your Logos 4 computer, and they will become available for viewing on your iphone/ipad. that is the difference. with amazon, if you so desire, you can purchase a book right from the iphone/ipad and it will become available as soon as you can download it... you can not do this on the logos app. the Logos app is not designed for sales, so therefore apple can not require it to become such... it is not a sales tool. If anyone has a an issue with what I say, then just let it play out and you will see what I mean. worrying about it now, will never solve it!
0 -
Kelly Todd said:
with amazon, if you so desire, you can purchase a book right from the iphone/ipad and it will become available as soon as you can download it... you can not do this on the logos app
I'm missing the distinction. I purchase books for both my Kindle app and my Logos app. They both work the same way. The purchase is made on the Amazon/Logos website and then it's available to me in the respective app. I can't purchase from within the Kindle app...
0 -
DHG said:Kelly Todd said:
with amazon, if you so desire, you can purchase a book right from the iphone/ipad and it will become available as soon as you can download it... you can not do this on the logos app
I'm missing the distinction. I purchase books for both my Kindle app and my Logos app. They both work the same way. The purchase is made on the Amazon/Logos website and then it's available to me in the respective app. I can't purchase from within the Kindle app...
Concur with missing distinction. Currently Kindle app on iOS has button for launching Safari browser to Amazon's web store for Kindle.
Semantic observation: Logos purchases are associated with your Logos account - can be viewed on variety of devices including desktop computers. Currently can purchase Logos resources from Logos web site or Logos sales entering on your behalf - either way order history visible at Logos web site for your account => https://www.logos.com/user/orders
Likewise plan to wait and watch along with postponing iPad 2 purchase plans.
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Kelly Todd said:
Donnie, yes, I am afraid that someone has missed the point... but in this case it is actually everyone here who is worried about loosing the logos app... and the point is that it is impossible to purchase anything from the app, or from logos and put it in the app. It may sound like semantics here, but you can not purchase books for your ipone/ipad, you can only purchase them for your Logos 4 computer, and they will become available for viewing on your iphone/ipad. that is the difference. with amazon, if you so desire, you can purchase a book right from the iphone/ipad and it will become available as soon as you can download it... you can not do this on the logos app. the Logos app is not designed for sales, so therefore apple can not require it to become such... it is not a sales tool. If anyone has a an issue with what I say, then just let it play out and you will see what I mean. worrying about it now, will never solve it!
I understand your point. However, we *can* download our Logos content to the app / device and have it available for offline viewing (thus it is *not* "impossible", as you asserted). With the Kindle app, it's required; with the Logos app, it's optional. So I suppose Apple could let Logos slide (if it's on their radar). Or Logos could remove the "offline" functionality if that's sufficient to make them compliant (which would be horrible as a user). That may have been in Bob Pritchett's mind when he posted his very terse response in this thread.
Note also that Apple has stated that it doesn't matter where you can purchase the content at present. It's whether you can purchase it anywhere and have the content on the device. So *if* Kindle didn't allow purchasing content directly from the device (I know that they do allow it), Apple is saying that since you can purchase it elsewhere (e.g. a regular web browser) and have the content show up on the device, you're out of compliance. You'd have to enhance your application to allow purchasing the same content at the same price via Apple's content purchase mechanisms (you can't even use your own shopping cart).
Even though Apple's hardware is outstanding, I'm a cynic when it comes to Apple's business practices. I don't expect them to back off the letter of their law - if they did, someone like Amazon would have grounds for complaint.
I know if I were Logos, I'd be running toward Android as fast as possible.
Donnie
0 -
Donnie Hale said:
So *if* Kindle didn't allow purchasing content directly from the device (I know that they do allow it)
I'm running the Kindle app on my iPad, and I'm fairly certain I cannot purchase content directly from my device (from the app, that is). I have to use a regular web browser.
0 -
DHG said:Donnie Hale said:
So *if* Kindle didn't allow purchasing content directly from the device (I know that they do allow it)
I'm running the Kindle app on my iPad, and I'm fairly certain I cannot purchase content directly from my device (from the app, that is). I have to use a regular web browser.
That is covered in the latest details to come out (the app launches Safari on the device, which is what I meant in my comment). From the comments that Apple released today, the Kindle software has to be updated to make the purchases go through Apple's content purchasing system. Amazon has until summer to make the change.
Donnie
0 -
Article mentions potential anti-trust concerns => http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/02/15/apples_app_store_subscription_rules_spark_anti_trust_concerns_as_developers_rage.html
Donnie Hale said:Even though Apple's hardware is outstanding, I'm a cynic when it comes to Apple's business practices. I don't expect them to back off the letter of their law - if they did, someone like Amazon would have grounds for complaint.
If publishers could offer in-app purchasing on iOS devices with 50 % markup, then everybody wins - consumer can chose to use one click convenience within app so $ 150 purchase has $ 45 going to Apple with $ 105 to publisher for $ 100 item in publisher's store (publisher receives $ 5 that helps defray cost of managing orders for 2 digital stores) with same royalties paid to copyright holders. Appears Apple hoping to bring more customers to publisher via millions of Apple's devices so publisher needs 42.86 % more sales to receive same revenue (e.g. publisher's 21 sales of $ 10 = $ 210 needs 30 sales of $ 10 on iOS for publisher to receive $ 210).
Donnie Hale said:I know if I were Logos, I'd be running toward Android as fast as possible.
Another item on my watch list is Oracle's lawsuit filed against Google about Android - mentioned in forum discussion => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3685/214702.aspx#214702 - later reply include Google's plan to fragment Android market.
Thankful can use Logos application on iPad - currently not have recommendation for future mobile purchase(s) - watching and praying so everyone smiles [8-|]
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
It seems that this battle has been brewing for a long time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/28/business/media/28media.html
Amazon has established itself as the "low price leader" in the e-book business and Apple clearly wants a cut. Their reported new policy/strategy will essentially force competitors to hand over most (if not all) of their profit to Apple. As a result, it will drive e-book prices higher. That is good news for Apple because it will allow them to make the healthy margins that they have always wanted plus enable them to take a huge cut of any competitors' profits. Kind of reminds me of how John D. Rockefeller forced the railroads to give him a rebate not only his oil shipments but also on those of his competitors. It looks as if Logos and similar app developers are going to be collateral damage in this war. If Apple requires app developers to sell any products that are available outside of the app inside the app and at the same price, it looks like the Logos app that we have come to know and love will be history. Also disturbing is the reported possible ban of any books sold outside of the app store from being downloaded by the app.
It looks like the rebellion against Apple has begun:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/15/rhapsody-wont-bow-to-apples-subscription-policy-issues-statem/
I hope Logos will clarify things soon given this new development.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
If publishers could offer in-app purchasing on iOS devices with 50 % markup, then everybody wins - consumer can chose to use one click convenience within app so $ 150 purchase has $ 45 going to Apple with $ 105 to publisher for $ 100 item in publisher's store (publisher receives $ 5 that helps defray cost of managing orders for 2 digital stores) with same royalties paid to copyright holders. Appears Apple hoping to bring more customers to publisher via millions of Apple's devices so publisher needs 42.86 % more sales to receive same revenue (e.g. publisher's 21 sales of $ 10 = $ 210 needs 30 sales of $ 10 on iOS for publisher to receive $ 210).
Unfortunately, Apple has said that in-app purchases must be the same or less than the price offered outside the app.
I would really appreciate some clarification from Logos as I am considering an ipad. The last response from them was not very satisfying at all.
0 -
This recent clarification is good news, and I'm not sure it's been fully understood. The confusion stems from the new subscription model that Apple is launching. There is not yet any official confirmation that the new subscription model will have exactly the same rules as the purchasing of individual resources (what Apple calls content). Let me quote the relevant passage from Apple's press release:
Apple does require that if a publisher chooses to sell a digital
subscription separately outside of the app, that same subscription offer
must be made available, at the same price or less, to customers who
wish to subscribe from within the app. In addition, publishers may no
longer provide links in their apps (to a web site, for example) which
allow the customer to purchase content or subscriptions outside of the
app.So, to clarify:
- Apple does say that subscriptions must be made available to purchase in the app if they are available outside the app.
- Apple does not say that content must be made available to purchase in the app if it is available outside the app.
- Apple does say that apps may not link to a website where content may be purchased.
Therefore, assuming Apple don't change this again:
- Your Logos content is safe.
- Logos won't need to add 10,000 resources into Apple's in-app purchasing scheme, and lose 30% of the revenue.
- Logos will need to remove the 'news' item on the home page that links to the Logos store.
<edit>I appreciate that some sites are reporting that Apple are treating content and subscriptions in the same way: "Amazon must also implement Apple's single-click in-app purchasing of content". But none of them are quoting Apple or Amazon directly. Until they do, there's no reason to believe it.</edit>
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Mark--
I think that you need to re-read the first line of the press release:
"Apple® today announced a new subscription service available to all
publishers of content-based apps on the App Store℠, including magazines,
newspapers, video, music, etc."Logos is a publisher of a "content based app". Also, video and music are included leading me to believe that it goes beyond periodicals. Plus, there is a big "etc." there that can mean any kind of content including books.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
What does that change? It says that Apple announces a new subscription service that's available to all publishers. It most certainly does not say that Apple announces that all publishers must switch to a new subscription service. We need to understand that there are two purchasing models here: a subscription service (which is new), and content service (which is not). Just because a subscription service is available to content-based apps doesn't mean that they have to use it.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
What does that change? It says that Apple announces a new subscription service that's available to all publishers. It most certainly does not say that Apple announces that all publishers must switch to a new subscription service. We need to understand that there are two purchasing models here: a subscription service (which is new), and content service (which is not). Just because a subscription service is available to content-based apps doesn't mean that they have to use it.
I think you're right, Mark, as far as the subscription service / model goes. However, Apple has also said that Amazon's Kindle app for iPhone/iPad, which most definitively is *not* about subscriptions, has to be updated to remove access to buy on the device outside of Apple's content purchase mechanisms and that they must provide in-app purchase functionality via Apple's on-device content purchase mechanisms in the iPhone/iPad Kindle app.
Donnie
0 -
Donnie Hale said:
I think you're right, Mark, as far as the subscription service / model goes. However, Apple has also said that Amazon's Kindle app for iPhone/iPad, which most definitively is *not* about subscriptions, has to be updated to remove access to buy on the device outside of Apple's content purchase mechanisms and that they must provide in-app purchase functionality via Apple's on-device content purchase mechanisms in the iPhone/iPad Kindle app.
I've seen evidence that they need to remove links to purchase on Amazon's website. But have you seen evidence from Apple that they need to provide in-app purchase functionality for all out-app purchases? I've read that in online articles, but I've not seen any quotes from Apple that actually say that. If you've seen it, please put up the link and I'll revise my post.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
I think that Apple is being very careful in their press releases. Their language is deliberately nuanced so that they will be able to step back in case things get "too hot in the kitchen". I am sure that they are gauging developer, end-user and regulatory response. What is important to remember is that the event that started all of this was the rejection of the Sony Reader app for offering in-app purchasing. That leads me to believe that Apple will be going after content providers for a percentage of sales.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Tony Thomas said:
What is important to remember is that the event that started all of this was the rejection of the Sony Reader app for offering in-app purchasing.
Yes, and apart from the resources in the news, Logos doesn't offer this. So no problem, right?
Tony Thomas said:That leads me to believe that Apple will be going after content providers for a percentage of sales.
Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. But there's a lot of scaremongering going on from various news/blog sites. Tecca says, "all apps must make the content they use available for purchase from within the app itself". But Apple's never said that, it's pure speculation or more likely a misunderstanding by journalists more eager to get out a 'good' story than to properly research the facts.
We should stick to the facts, and leave the speculation to others. I repeat, there's currently no evidence that the Logos app or purchasing model is in danger.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Tony Thomas said:
What is important to remember is that the event that started all of this was the rejection of the Sony Reader app for offering in-app purchasing.
Yes, and apart from the resources in the news, Logos doesn't offer this. So no problem, right?
Tony Thomas said:That leads me to believe that Apple will be going after content providers for a percentage of sales.
Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. But there's a lot of scaremongering going on from various news/blog sites. Tecca says, "all apps must make the content they use available for purchase from within the app itself". But Apple's never said that, it's pure speculation or more likely a misunderstanding by journalists more eager to get out a 'good' story than to properly research the facts.
We should stick to the facts, and leave the speculation to others. I repeat, there's currently no evidence that the Logos app or purchasing model is in danger.
Check this out, then:
"Later Tuesday, Apple spokeswoman Trudy Muller confirmed that those
rules apply not only to newspaper and magazine publishers, but also to
content sellers like Amazon.com, which offers a Kindle app for the
iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad."To meet Apple's guidelines, Amazon must remove its "Shop in Kindle
Store" link from its Kindle application. That link, which opens the iOS browser and displays Amazon's Web-based e-bookstore, is currently the easiest way for Kindle app users to purchase new books."Amazon did not immediately reply to a request for comment on the new
rules, or answer questions about how customers will be able to buy books
and whether it will continue to offer an iOS e-reader."Sans the "Shop in Kindle Store" link, users can still purchase books
outside of the App Store -- on Amazon's Web site, for instance, or
through a non-Apple Kindle app -- then have them loaded to an iPhone or
iPad."Amazon must also implement Apple's single-click in-app purchasing of
content; Apple would skim 30% off the top of all such purchases,
however."Apple did not specify a deadline that developers must meet to modify
their existing apps, and Muller did not reply to a follow-up question
asking for that date."The latest news adds to the controversy sparked earlier this month when Sony announced that Apple had rejected its e-reader app. At the time, Sony said it had "reached an impasse" with Apple over its in-app purchasing rules."
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Donnie Hale said:
I think you're right, Mark, as far as the subscription service / model goes. However, Apple has also said that Amazon's Kindle app for iPhone/iPad, which most definitively is *not* about subscriptions, has to be updated to remove access to buy on the device outside of Apple's content purchase mechanisms and that they must provide in-app purchase functionality via Apple's on-device content purchase mechanisms in the iPhone/iPad Kindle app.
I've seen evidence that they need to remove links to purchase on Amazon's website. But have you seen evidence from Apple that they need to provide in-app purchase functionality for all out-app purchases? I've read that in online articles, but I've not seen any quotes from Apple that actually say that. If you've seen it, please put up the link and I'll revise my post.
Apple Insider article http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/02/15/legacy_apps_must_comply_with_apples_app_store_subscription_rules_by_june_30.html includes link to Digital Daily article => http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20110215/june-30-deadline-for-apple-subscriptions/
Wondering if Apple sent a memo to Logos with June 30 deadline for implementing in-app purchasing ?
Apple's iOS reference library http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/navigation/ includes In App Purchase Programming Guide (content updated Feb 15) => http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/NetworkingInternet/Conceptual/StoreKitGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html - needs iOS developer account to read business requirements at App Store Resource Center.
Also noted App Store Review Guidelines updated => http://developer.apple.com/appstore/guidelines.html (likewise needs iOS developer account to view current review guidelines)
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Tony Thomas said:
"Amazon must also implement Apple's single-click in-app purchasing of
content; Apple would skim 30% off the top of all such purchases,
however.I've read it before. But where's the quote from Apple that says every Kindle book offered on Amazon's website must also be offered in-app? It's Computerworld's paraphrase of what she said - and they've got it wrong. The actual quote from Trudy Muller is this:
"We are now requiring that if an app offers customers the ability to
purchase books outside of the app, that the same option is also
available to customers from within the app with in-app purchase." (source - although the commentary in that source has also misinterpreted the statements)Here's the crucial bit that several people have misunderstood: "if an app offers customers the ability to
purchase books outside of the app".So, as long as the app itself doesn't allow customers to purchase books there is not a problem. Nothing in what has been said suggests that software companies can't allow apps to access material purchased off-app. It's only been said that the apps themselves can't allow such a purchase to be made from the app itself.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Tony Thomas said:
I think that Apple is being very careful in their press releases. Their language is deliberately nuanced so that they will be able to step back in case things get "too hot in the kitchen". I am sure that they are gauging developer, end-user and regulatory response. What is important to remember is that the event that started all of this was the rejection of the Sony Reader app for offering in-app purchasing. That leads me to believe that Apple will be going after content providers for a percentage of sales.
After doing a whole lot of reading I can say personally I am opposed to this move, apple wishes to gain different revenue streams and is treating the iOS like a total store rather than a mall. As a store they do have a right to ask for a percentage, a very standard one. Most retail stores get 30-40% take on periodicals. In the end this is Apples way of trying to give a strong nudge to their version of things. Itunes for music and vides, ibooks for reading. It has been pointed out you are not being able to read nook books on a kindle and vise-versa. Apple is already facing antitrust suites because of this. Popular systems are expected to be lost (netflix, Rhapsody for sure has said they will not be participating). I have no issues with Apple requiring a percentage but apple demanding the price be the same or less is very wrong. But Amazon did something very similar with their kindle, telling publishers what they were going to charge if they wanted to be in their electronic store. I have very few iBooks because I can only read them on my phone, apple has said they have no plans for a desktop version. I believe Apple will be forced to blink I do think Apple has the right and should be getting periodical fees but books and other context should be taken care buy ads and not a retail level percentage. I am personally calling Apple to express my concerns and would encourage others to do so too. I do know one person reported Apple policy was because legally they could not treat periodicals different than other APPS.
-Dan
0 -
but when you purchase a logos book it is not purchased for the logos app... it is purchased for Logos ver. 4 on your desktop/laptop. the Ipad/iphone app only allows you to see them and use them. If you had no logos ver. 4 on your desktop, you would not have access to anything.... the Logos app is not a stand alone tool, but rather free gift from logos so that you can see your books on your phone. to prove my point, go to your kindle app and purchase a book... as soon as it is downloaded, it is available for you to read... go to your logos app, and download a book... well you cant. and further more, if you don't have logos 4 for your desktop, the app would be useless... it can not sell you anything... it is impossible.
0 -
Oh, okay! I THINK I get it now.... "IF AN APP" seems like the clarifying point. They aren't saying "If a company..." (like Logos) offers the ability to buy content... what they are saying is that "IF THE COMPANY'S APP gives you the opportunity to make a purchase IN THE APP, then Apple wants a cut." Which if you stop and think about it... kinda makes sense... because the APP then would be acting like a store... and it means that Apple's iPad is providing the venue for advertising and selling your products... hence, it makes sense they'd want a cut of some kind. But if I understand correctly, you CAN'T make a purchase directly or indirectly (through a link) in the Logos app, as there is no such link. However, the Kindle app DOES have such a link. Hence the problem. Am I understanding correctly? If so, kudos to the Logos team for properly designing the app to comply from the beginning. Good business call and good witness.
0 -
Emily, I think that you have it! Well done.
0 -
Computer World article http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9209838/Antitrust_fight_against_Apple_s_App_Store_rules_faces_steep_climb - notes Apple wants all content providers (which would include Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Logos) to remove links to outside purchasing web sites along with adding Apple's in app purchasing at same prices as external (with 30 % cut for using Apple's store infrastructure). Article also mentions Google's OnePass 10 % competition for content publishers.
EmileB said:Oh, okay! I THINK I get it now.... "IF AN APP" seems like the clarifying point. They aren't saying "If a company..." (like Logos) offers the ability to buy content... what they are saying is that "IF THE COMPANY'S APP gives you the opportunity to make a purchase IN THE APP, then Apple wants a cut." Which if you stop and think about it... kinda makes sense... because the APP then would be acting like a store... and it means that Apple's iPad is providing the venue for advertising and selling your products... hence, it makes sense they'd want a cut of some kind. But if I understand correctly, you CAN'T make a purchase directly or indirectly (through a link) in the Logos app, as there is no such link. However, the Kindle app DOES have such a link. Hence the problem. Am I understanding correctly? If so, kudos to the Logos team for properly designing the app to comply from the beginning. Good business call and good witness.
Logos home page on iPad has News section with Books on sale - clicking on a Book opens Safari on iPad to Logos web page http://www.logos.com/checkout with shopping cart containing Book for purchase.
Kelly Todd said:go to your logos app, and download a book... well you cant.
Apologies Pastor Kelly, your statement is incorrect - can use Logos to download books to iPad that are licensed to my Logos account (with appropriate Logos 4 package purchase).
In Logos application on iPad, changing available offline mode to ON usually downloads Logos resource to iPad for offline use - have downloaded many Logos resources on iPad for use without network connection (offline). Some resource downloads have problems => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/29280.aspx
Thankful can quickly navigate to Bible verse using Logos on iPad while sitting in church pew (without network connection); also Thankful can quickly switch Bible versions. Recently Logos added split screen to iPad application - Thankful can open compare 2 Bible versions or have 1 Bible open along with a commentary.
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Appears one company already planning to pull out of Apple's App Store => http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9209861/Rhapsody_blasts_Apple_s_30_cut_from_in_app_subs?taxonomyId=77&pageNumber=1 since business model unsustainable with in app prices being the same as external.
Article also mentions convenience for consumers being able to purchase digital content with one-click using in app purchasing - fascinating electronic store model.
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Apologies Pastor Kelly, your statement is incorrect - can use Logos to download books to iPad that are licensed to my Logos account (with appropriate Logos 4 package purchase).
but you can not purchase the books only download the content. If you want to stand on apples principles here, go ahead and give them 30% of what logos sells the download for... the download is free from your desktop to your iPhone.... so 30% of free is still nothing. I honestly believe that we need to end this discussion. Logos has not said anything, people are getting all worked up about something that they can do absolutely nothing about, so with that said, I have answered your point, but will say nothing more on the subject.
0 -
Kelly Todd said:
but you can not purchase the books only download the content.
Correct - today do not have option to purchase Logos resources in Logos application on iPad (or any iOS device) - have to use a web browser (on iPad or desktop or other device).
Repeating disclaimer - personally not work for Apple nor own Apple stock - am an enthusiastic Logos user that recognizes Apple extending their store business model from music content to all digital content, including subscriptions and one-time book purchases.
Apple wants to create convenient electronic store for all digital content using Apple mobile devices that has over 100,000,000 million shoppers. If consumer choses easy one click purchase in-app on Apple device, then Apple wants 30 % of new purchase revenue. If consumer chooses to purchase externally, Apple gets nothing (while consumer can download new purchase to Apple device). Apple wants all iOS content applications to have same or better pricing as external store along with prohibiting iOS content applications from linking to external web site on iOS device. Also, Apple can block digital content from being downloaded to iOS application that does not offer in app purchasing (started this thread).
With Apple's 30 % cut of new purchases, content publishers need 43 % more in app sales to receive same revenue (e.g. publisher's 21 sales of $ 10 = $ 210 would need 30 sales of $ 10 on an Apple device for same $ 210 revenue). Not know if Logos plans to comply with Apple's extended content pricing model or remove iOS application from Apple's App Store (so Biblia.com becomes only Logos resource access on iOS devices).
From business perspective, Logos has a decision to make: Does modifying iOS application to comply with Apple's pricing model (adding in app purchasing and removing links to Logos web purchases) offer positive return on investment so Logos can pay employees and copyright holders along with turning a profit ?
If Logos modifies iOS application, wonder if new resource purchased in iOS application would be licensed for other platforms ? (or have 70 % discount on Logos web site to unlock resource for other platform use).
Wonder if Apple would allow advertising during in app purchasing - if purchase in app, resource licensed to iOS devices and 70 % discount at Logos web site to unlock resource for other platforms. If purchase at Logos web site for same price, resource usable on all Logos platforms.
Logos has sales figures for 5 books on sale in iOS application - potential indicator of Logos in app purchasing. Suspect in app purchasing could include resource description from Logos web site (only need to maintain one catalog of resources).
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
EmileB said:
Oh, okay! I THINK I get it now.... "IF AN APP" seems like the clarifying point. They aren't saying "If a company..." (like Logos) offers the ability to buy content... what they are saying is that "IF THE COMPANY'S APP gives you the opportunity to make a purchase IN THE APP, then Apple wants a cut." Which if you stop and think about it... kinda makes sense... because the APP then would be acting like a store... and it means that Apple's iPad is providing the venue for advertising and selling your products... hence, it makes sense they'd want a cut of some kind.
Yes! That's exactly what I think is being said.
EmileB said:But if I understand correctly, you CAN'T make a purchase directly or indirectly (through a link) in the Logos app, as there is no such link. However, the Kindle app DOES have such a link. Hence the problem. Am I understanding correctly? If so, kudos to the Logos team for properly designing the app to comply from the beginning. Good business call and good witness.
This isn't quite true. There are a couple of links on the Home page of the Logos app that allow you to purchase up to 5 specific resources. But it would be very easy to remove these links, so it's not a major problem.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Ok...not having the iPad yet, I was going on what I've understood from others regarding the app itself. It does seem like maybe the "News" section might need to be altered. Bob seemed pretty confident about Logos' compliance, so it seems like it's either altready addressed to Apple's satisfaction, or could relatively easily be made to do so.
BTW, Mark... credit to where credit is due... I think you were the one to clear this up. Your insights were what turned the lightbulb on for me. Thanks! I was preparing to purchase the iPad 2 upon release... specifically for its ability to run Logos... but when I heard this news today, it pulled me up short and I was preparing to abandon plans to go with the iPad 2 as well as with the purchase of an MBA. I'll be returning to the mission field at the start of May (after an almost 5 year absence) and I was preparing to make the purchases of equipment I'll need on the field. I can't afford to make a mistake as it would be pretty difficult to rectify later considering where I'm headed. But I have returned to feeling fairly comfortable with making those purchases now.
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
... But where's the quote from Apple that says every Kindle book offered on Amazon's website must also be offered in-app?
iPhone Development Blog includes descriptions of 3 section 11 additions to Apple App Store review guidelines => http://iphoneincubator.com/blog/
Observation: not know how Apple will enforce new guidelines 11.13 (add in app purchasing for content) and 11.14 (remove links to web store) - third blog option is intriguing - wonder if Apple would approve application(s) that comply with 11.14, but not 11.13 (e.g. Kindle without links to Amazon's web store)
Previous Apple iOS App Store review guidelines available => http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/app-store-guidelines.pdf - section 11 ended with guideline 11.11
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Tony Thomas said:
"Amazon must also implement Apple's single-click in-app purchasing of
content; Apple would skim 30% off the top of all such purchases,
however.I've read it before. But where's the quote from Apple that says every Kindle book offered on Amazon's website must also be offered in-app? It's Computerworld's paraphrase of what she said - and they've got it wrong. The actual quote from Trudy Muller is this:
"We are now requiring that if an app offers customers the ability to
purchase books outside of the app, that the same option is also
available to customers from within the app with in-app purchase." (source - although the commentary in that source has also misinterpreted the statements)Here's the crucial bit that several people have misunderstood: "if an app offers customers the ability to
purchase books outside of the app".So, as long as the app itself doesn't allow customers to purchase books there is not a problem. Nothing in what has been said suggests that software companies can't allow apps to access material purchased off-app. It's only been said that the apps themselves can't allow such a purchase to be made from the app itself.
From reading this:
"Later Tuesday, Apple spokeswoman Trudy Muller confirmed that those rules
apply not only to newspaper and magazine publishers, but also to
content sellers like Amazon.com, which offers a Kindle app for the
iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad."It sounds like Gregg got independent verification from Trudy. I am checking with him for verification.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
iPhone Development Blog includes descriptions of 3 section 11 additions to Apple App Store review guidelines
It is worth noting that the review guidelines are not the developer agreement. There is leeway on how these guidelines are applied. That said, 11.12 is certainly limited to subscriptions but 11.13 is certainly intended to include any digital content purchased through iOS. The key phrase is, "This applies to both purchased content and subscriptions". It is interesting to note that the developer agreement (not the guidelines) specifically states that anything purchased within iOS may only be used on iOS. This would present a challenge to companies offering a dual-purchase model (website and in-app).
It looks like there is a little wiggle room in 11.14 - linking to a page to buy a particular book would be ruled out, but can an app still link to a web-based product page? Probably not, but the guideline doesn't explicitly rule that out.
If Apple rigidly applies 11.13, it will certainly present a problem for companies like Logos and Amazon. I could not find anything in the developer agreement requiring in-app purchase of external content, so Logos does follow the developer terms, but if the guidelines require it, the app may still be rejected anyway.
It is important to note, however, that Amazon just released an update to their iOS Kindle app and it was approved and distributed via the app store - this even after the Sony app was rejected. So Apple is at least for now approving apps that have external content without in-app sales.
0 -
According to Gregg, he confirmed with Trudy that Amazon must drop its link to the Kindle store and offer in-app purchasing. So, it seems that Logos would be held to the same requirements.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
This discussion has continued way beyond its usefulness - why worry about what may be as there is nothing any of us can do about it. Logos will work with Apple with our best interests in mind and whatever happens GOD is still in control and there are more important issues to deal with.
I did find the discussion interesting at first but it takes up time to follow the threads with nothing productive or useful that I can glean from them.
Once something concrete is announced from Logos then we can discuss any appropriate action - if any should the decision be something that negatively impacts us.
Respectfully
0 -
it's funny that the whole world seems to be up in arms because Apple wants to charge publishers 30%. There is an interesting article (see link) that explains how Amazon and Barnes & Noble charge much higher rates than that but no one seems to worry about that. This has gotten blow way out of proportion. read the article. How will Apple's policy effect Logos? I don't know, I don't believe it will but we'll find out soon enough.
http://www.macworld.com/article/157945/2011/02/app_store_subscriptions.html?lsrc=top_1
0 -
Stephen Weasler said:
it's funny that the whole world seems to be up in arms because Apple wants to charge publishers 30%. There is an interesting article (see link) that explains how Amazon and Barnes & Noble charge much higher rates than that but no one seems to worry about that. This has gotten blow way out of proportion. read the article. How will Apple's policy effect Logos? I don't know, I don't believe it will but we'll find out soon enough.
http://www.macworld.com/article/157945/2011/02/app_store_subscriptions.html?lsrc=top_1
You are confusing publishers with resellers. It is one thing for a publisher to hand over 30% and keep 70%. It is another thing for a reseller to hand over 30% and keep 10-20%.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Tony Thomas said:
You are confusing publishers with resellers. It is one thing for a publisher to hand over 30% and keep 70%. It is another thing for a reseller to hand over 30% and keep 10-20%.
No, he's not. He's saying that Amazon charges newspapers 30% (or more) and Apple will too. Whether it's right or wrong, it is the same.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
I am confused as to why people are getting upset with this discussion. Obviously, if there is an issue with the Logos app being acceptable to Apple after June 30, then it is important to make that clear. Several people in this thread, myself included, were planning iPad purchases in order to run the Logos app. Whether or not that app will be acceptable after June 30 is a big deal to some of us.
What is clear is that there is a LOT of uncertainty that has been caused by the latest Apple fight with Sony. Several app makers have said they will pull their apps from the Apple store. True, they may be over-reacting, or even reacting properly to a circumstance that doesn't apply to Logos, but the changes are certainly not clear to many. Discussions like this are helpful in hashing those things out and helping us figure out what is really going on. I, for one, really appreciate the links to the various sources that have been posted. Had it not been for this thread, I may have purchased a new iPad with no clue that there was even a hint of an issue with the very app I was purchasing it to run.
0 -
Scott H. Clark said:
Several app makers have said they will pull their apps from the Apple store. True, they may be over-reacting, or even reacting properly to a circumstance that doesn't apply to Logos, but the changes are certainly not clear to many.
Historical observation: NBC pulled out then returned to iTunes => http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/09/22/nbc_strongly_opposed_to_apples_99_cent_itunes_rental_model.html
Scott H. Clark said:Discussions like this are helpful in hashing those things out and helping us figure out what is really going on. I, for one, really appreciate the links to the various sources that have been posted. Had it not been for this thread, I may have purchased a new iPad with no clue that there was even a hint of an issue with the very app I was purchasing it to run.
Likewise have learned a lot following links and researching - did generate some ideas that have been summarized in new thread => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/29983.aspx
Concur with wondering about future of Logos application on iOS devices. Have enjoyed using Logos on iPad in church services; Thankful for Logos library content access offline. Planning to continue using Logos Bible Software in church - currently not know if Apple device will be appropriate in few months (even though Apple is # 1 mobile device manufacturer worldwide and makes great products for consumer usage).
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Tony Thomas said:
You are confusing publishers with resellers. It is one thing for a publisher to hand over 30% and keep 70%. It is another thing for a reseller to hand over 30% and keep 10-20%.
No, he's not. He's saying that Amazon charges newspapers 30% (or more) and Apple will too. Whether it's right or wrong, it is the same.
My point is that 30% may be a fair rate for publishers and content providers. It isn't for retailers (like Logos and Amazon) as it is essentially a money grab for virtually all of the profits.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Very....
0 -
Apple app restrictions will apply to e-books
http://www.thebookseller.com/news/apple-app-restrictions-will-apply-e-books.html
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
thebookseller.com said:
Apple will require "all publishers of content-based apps" available via
its app store to remove links that offer that content for sale outside
of it, the company has said.Exactly. So long as Logos removes the five links from the home page, it will be fine.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Mark Barnes said:thebookseller.com said:
Apple will require "all publishers of content-based apps" available via
its app store to remove links that offer that content for sale outside
of it, the company has said.Exactly. So long as Logos removes the five links from the home page, it will be fine.
What about this:
"Apple confirmed it would now require publishers to allow in-app
purchases, and that if an offer was made "outside the app" the same--or
better--offer must be made inside the app. Apple will take a cut of 30%
of all in-app purchases, made via its app store, but will still allow
content to be used that has been purchased externally."It sounds to me like they'll have to do more than remove the links.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
0 -
Todd Phillips said:Mark Barnes said:thebookseller.com said:
Apple will require "all publishers of content-based apps" available via
its app store to remove links that offer that content for sale outside
of it, the company has said.Exactly. So long as Logos removes the five links from the home page, it will be fine.
What about this:
"Apple confirmed it would now require publishers to allow in-app
purchases, and that if an offer was made "outside the app" the same--or
better--offer must be made inside the app. Apple will take a cut of 30%
of all in-app purchases, made via its app store, but will still allow
content to be used that has been purchased externally."It sounds to me like they'll have to do more than remove the links.
It says the same thing in this article:
"Apple had previously said the "in-app clause" was already part of the
developer guidelines, but was not enforced, and said that publishers
had to allow in-app purchases along with links to external sources.
http://www.thebookseller.com/news/apple-app-restrictions-will-apply-e-books.htmlDirector of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Todd Phillips said:Mark Barnes said:thebookseller.com said:
Apple will require "all publishers of content-based apps" available via
its app store to remove links that offer that content for sale outside
of it, the company has said.Exactly. So long as Logos removes the five links from the home page, it will be fine.
What about this:
"Apple confirmed it would now require publishers to allow in-app
purchases, and that if an offer was made "outside the app" the same--or
better--offer must be made inside the app. Apple will take a cut of 30%
of all in-app purchases, made via its app store, but will still allow
content to be used that has been purchased externally."It sounds to me like they'll have to do more than remove the links.
It says the same thing in this article:
"Apple had previously said the "in-app clause" was already part of the
developer guidelines, but was not enforced, and said that publishers
had to allow in-app purchases along with links to external sources.
http://www.thebookseller.com/news/apple-app-restrictions-will-apply-e-books.htmlDirector of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Todd Phillips said:Mark Barnes said:thebookseller.com said:
Apple will require "all publishers of content-based apps" available via
its app store to remove links that offer that content for sale outside
of it, the company has said.Exactly. So long as Logos removes the five links from the home page, it will be fine.
What about this:
"Apple confirmed it would now require publishers to allow in-app
purchases, and that if an offer was made "outside the app" the same--or
better--offer must be made inside the app. Apple will take a cut of 30%
of all in-app purchases, made via its app store, but will still allow
content to be used that has been purchased externally."It sounds to me like they'll have to do more than remove the links.
It says the same thing in this article:
"Apple had previously said the "in-app clause" was already part of the
developer guidelines, but was not enforced, and said that publishers
had to allow in-app purchases along with links to external sources.
http://www.thebookseller.com/news/apple-app-restrictions-will-apply-e-books.htmlDirector of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
0 -
Tony, and others:
First let me say that logos is working on improvements for the app, so that means to me that they are not too worried about this issue with Apple for what ever reason, which might include the fact that it is impossible to purchase a book for the Ipad, Iphone, Itouch. you can purchase a book for your computer, and by grace or Logos they will with the help of the logos app allow you to see it on your idevice... but you can not purchase anything directly for the idevice. Now this becomes even more true in that if they did have to put a link in the app to sell a book, since they don't sell ibooks, then 30% of nothing is still nothing. Logos has never sold a single file for the Idevice... only for your computer which the logos app will not run on! some may see this as semantics, but at this point there is nothing that apple can do when the files are not sold.
0 -
Kelly Todd said:
First let me say that logos is working on improvements for the app, ...
Thankful for Logos application improvements [8-|] on iOS devices.
Kelly Todd said:... but at this point there is nothing that apple can do when the files are not sold.
Apple's option is removing eBook reader applications from Apple's App Store because in-app purchasing not added to iOS application. However, Apple's in-app purchasing can not handle complete eBook catalogs:
Wonder if Amazon's Kindle, Barnes & Noble Nook, and Kobo applications will be available in App Store after June 30 (their book catalogs are immensely too big for in-app purchasing). Looking at Logos web site, found 5,177 products => http://www.logos.com/products/search?sort=pricelo&pageSize=60 (too many for Apple's in-app store). Amazon already working on web based Kindle reader:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000579091
Kelly Todd said:Tony, and others:
First let me say that logos is working on improvements for the app, so that means to me that they are not too worried about this issue with Apple for what ever reason, which might include the fact that it is impossible to purchase a book for the Ipad, Iphone, Itouch. you can purchase a book for your computer, and by grace or Logos they will with the help of the logos app allow you to see it on your idevice... but you can not purchase anything directly for the idevice. Now this becomes even more true in that if they did have to put a link in the app to sell a book, since they don't sell ibooks, then 30% of nothing is still nothing. Logos has never sold a single file for the Idevice... only for your computer which the logos app will not run on! some may see this as semantics, but at this point there is nothing that apple can do when the files are not sold.
Historical observation: in 2009, Logos published per user licensing for resource content => http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/10/license_and_registration_please.html and http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/440
Logos resource content is no longer purchased for your computer. Logos licenses resource content to an individual's library that can be used in any Logos Bible Software application, including desktop computers, mobile devices, and web browser. Some publishers restrict content usage to desktop computers. Logos 4 desktop applications use your Logos library licenses to download content to your computer for your use.
Libronix 3 and Logos 4 Bible Study applications are now free - can use both versions with your Logos library. Logos web order page https://www.logos.com/user/orders has resource download instructions for Libronix 3 and Logos 4 applications on PC and Mac.
As a Logos user, I have the option of not using any Logos desktop application to access content in my Logos library. Currently, desktop Logos applications have more features than mobile applications and web browser.
Keep Smiling [:)]
0
said:
