Understanding a word in the original language - what resources do I have in In Logos version is 4.2
When I want to know exactly what a word means in the original language (Hebrew) in a particular verse, where do I go to find the best translation of THAT word in that exact verse? Not like Strongs where it tells me the word meant “This or that” so many times and something else a number of times. That is NOT helpful. I want to know what the word means in that exact instance only!
My Logos version is 4.2 SR-2
What books/helps might I have that will help me
Thanks so much for your help
Comments
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What you ask is difficult because there can be disagreement over what specific nuance a word conveys in particular contexts.
My first port of call would be to look up the word in a lexicon (HALOT, CHALOT, BDB) and see if that verse is listed as an example of a particular meaning. This will give you some idea of the range of meaning the word can convey. Then I would compare how different translations translate that particular word. I would pay close attention to any footnotes the NET Bible might have on a word.You can also look to a technical commentary or the better expository commentaries to discuss the particular meaning of a word.
Remember context is king!
Prov. 15:23
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One of the many things that I have learned from Mark Barnes' videos is that if you click on the Louw-Nida numbers during a word study, it is keyed to give you the precise definition that most people (scholars?) agree to be the very best translation for that particular word for that instance. Strong's is numbered just specifically for that word, Louw-Nida is keyed for that word in that particular verse. Maybe he (or someone else) can explain it better. Without being a person with knowledge of the ancient languages, I think that this is about as close to "for sure" that I can get. Once I get the Louw-Nida information, I start digging further.
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MarCia Mooney said:
What books/helps might I have that will help me
If you have Vine's, it helps me (from a layperson's view).
(if you click on the above image, your browser should show you a zoomed view)
- When i hover over the Strong's number, Logos4 pop-up the definition from Vine's (if that number is found in Vine's).
- Clicking on the number opens Vine's to that location. As you can see Vine's gives a clearer definition that a layperson as myself can grasp.
- But you will need it prioritized in your Library for this to happen.
As for exact definition per scripture reference, Kevin's explanation is best.
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Rick Hypes said:
One of the many things that I have learned from Mark Barnes' videos is that if you click on the Louw-Nida numbers during a word study, it is keyed to give you the precise definition that most people (scholars?) agree to be the very best translation for that particular word for that instance. Strong's is numbered just specifically for that word, Louw-Nida is keyed for that word in that particular verse. Maybe he (or someone else) can explain it better. Without being a person with knowledge of the ancient languages, I think that this is about as close to "for sure" that I can get. Once I get the Louw-Nida information, I start digging further.
Unfortunately L-N is a Greek language thing. It cannot help with a Hebrew word study.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
Unfortunately L-N is a Greek language thing.
Thanks for the correction Kevin, I read through MarCia's post way too quickly.
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MarCia Mooney said:
When I want to know exactly what a word means in the original language (Hebrew) in a particular verse, where do I go to find the best translation of THAT word in that exact verse? Not like Strongs where it tells me the word meant “This or that” so many times and something else a number of times. That is NOT helpful. I want to know what the word means in that exact instance only!
My Logos version is 4.2 SR-2
What books/helps might I have that will help me
Thanks so much for your help
Kevin has already noted that you should consult one of the better lexica such as HALOT or BDB, but I would recommend a further step. Note how the words are used in various contexts and the other words with which they are used. This will give you a sense of the significance of the word you are trying to understand. Don't simply look at the entry and note that it is used in the senses X, Y, and Z and that the lexicon cites your passage under Y. Dig a little deeper.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Kevin has already noted that you should consult one of the better lexica such as HALOT or BDB, but I would recommend a further step. Note how the words are used in various contexts and the other words with which they are used. This will give you a sense of the significance of the word you are trying to understand. Don't simply look at the entry and note that it is used in the senses X, Y, and Z and that the lexicon cites your passage under Y. Dig a little deeper.
George is right, I should have expressed this concept explicitly. One way you can do this is performing a lemma search and then saving the results as a passage list which you can then print out and take notes on the word's usage. Sometimes viewing the results with the Aligned view can be helpful also.
Prov. 15:23
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Hi George
George Somsel said:Kevin has already noted that you should consult one of the better lexica such as HALOT or BDB, but I would recommend a further step. Note how the words are used in various contexts and the other words with which they are used. This will give you a sense of the significance of the word you are trying to understand. Don't simply look at the entry and note that it is used in the senses X, Y, and Z and that the lexicon cites your passage under Y. Dig a little deeper.
With respect to looking at how words are used in various contexts and with other words.
How much would you say that this needs to be constrained by author / book or can it be used more widely?
For example is it valid to look at how a word is used in one of the Gospels and expect Paul to use it similarly or - on the other hand - is is reasonable to expect that the way Paul uses a word in one letter would be similar to his use of it elsewhere?
Similarly, is it valid to look at the use of a word in the Psalms to inform what Isaiah would have meant when using the same word?
Appreciate your thoughts on this.
Graham
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi George
George Somsel said:Kevin has already noted that you should consult one of the better lexica such as HALOT or BDB, but I would recommend a further step. Note how the words are used in various contexts and the other words with which they are used. This will give you a sense of the significance of the word you are trying to understand. Don't simply look at the entry and note that it is used in the senses X, Y, and Z and that the lexicon cites your passage under Y. Dig a little deeper.
With respect to looking at how words are used in various contexts and with other words.
How much would you say that this needs to be constrained by author / book or can it be used more widely?
For example is it valid to look at how a word is used in one of the Gospels and expect Paul to use it similarly or - on the other hand - is is reasonable to expect that the way Paul uses a word in one letter would be similar to his use of it elsewhere?
Similarly, is it valid to look at the use of a word in the Psalms to inform what Isaiah would have meant when using the same word?
Appreciate your thoughts on this.
Graham
First of all, it isn't simply a matter of usage in particular books. What must be considered is the type of literature in whose context a particular word is used. Is it used in fairly straightforward "historical narrative" or is it used in a prophetic oracle of woe? Is it used in a psalm of praise or in an enthronement psalm? The gattung or genre of the writing is important for understanding its use. While the particular book in which it is found is of importance (I'm thinking very particularly in the NT where Paul may use a word in a much different manner from the apocalypticist), it is the narrower context which is more important. It is, of course, important to do a global survey of the use of a particular word, but sometimes (frequently) that is not sufficient.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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For Hebrew, the grammatical structure of a word might change the definition. If you have Logos Scholar, you can see the actual structure of a word. If you search for that specific structure, you will get closer to the meaning. And I agree, context will pinpoint which shade of meaning is implied.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Michael Ballai said:
For Hebrew, the grammatical structure of a word might change the definition. If you have Logos Scholar, you can see the actual structure of a word. If you search for that specific structure, you will get closer to the meaning. And I agree, context will pinpoint which shade of meaning is implied.
It is necessary to note that one does not simply choose one possibility from a range of possible meanings because he happens to like that meaning in the context. There must be a solid basis in similar contexts to undergird that understanding. Too often I have seen students simply choose a gloss for a word because they happened to like that meaning -- as a matter of fact, I remember having done something similar myself once upon a time.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I don't mean this to sound too obvious, but to get what a specific word means in a specific verse, the only real way to to compare the english translations. I know that sounds too simple, but most english translations are the combined work of teams of scholars who ask the exact same question you're asking. So, comparing the translations is a good first step. If you have commentaries that include their own translations, that is your next best step, since they typically explain why they chose a translation in a specific verse. Good luck!!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
I don't mean this to sound too obvious, but to get what a specific word means in a specific verse, the only real way to to compare the english translations. I know that sounds too simple, but most english translations are the combined work of teams of scholars who ask the exact same question you're asking. So, comparing the translations is a good first step. If you have commentaries that include their own translations, that is your next best step, since they typically explain why they chose a translation in a specific verse. Good luck!!
Of course, you could always skip the work and the difficulty and simply stick to the English. Why learn Greek and Hebrew? [6] Yes, I'm being the devil's advocate.
EDIT: You say that not all English versions agree? Well, flip a coin. [B][B][B]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Graham Criddle said:
Hi George
George Somsel said:Kevin has already noted that you should consult one of the better lexica such as HALOT or BDB, but I would recommend a further step. Note how the words are used in various contexts and the other words with which they are used. This will give you a sense of the significance of the word you are trying to understand. Don't simply look at the entry and note that it is used in the senses X, Y, and Z and that the lexicon cites your passage under Y. Dig a little deeper.
With respect to looking at how words are used in various contexts and with other words.
How much would you say that this needs to be constrained by author / book or can it be used more widely?
For example is it valid to look at how a word is used in one of the Gospels and expect Paul to use it similarly or - on the other hand - is is reasonable to expect that the way Paul uses a word in one letter would be similar to his use of it elsewhere?
Similarly, is it valid to look at the use of a word in the Psalms to inform what Isaiah would have meant when using the same word?
First of all, it isn't simply a matter of usage in particular books. What must be considered is the type of literature in whose context a particular word is used. Is it used in fairly straightforward "historical narrative" or is it used in a prophetic oracle of woe? Is it used in a psalm of praise or in an enthronement psalm? The gattung or genre of the writing is important for understanding its use. While the particular book in which it is found is of importance (I'm thinking very particularly in the NT where Paul may use a word in a much different manner from the apocalypticist), it is the narrower context which is more important. It is, of course, important to do a global survey of the use of a particular word, but sometimes (frequently) that is not sufficient.
Logos offers Learn Greek and Hebrew videos => http://www.logos.com/product/5876/learn-to-use-biblical-greek-and-hebrew-with-logos-bible-software
The Hebrew series has 11 videos; third one is a Hebrew word study (video is 2 hours and 25 minutes in length). After discussing various lexicons and putting them away (reminded me of George's never an interlinear), learned a Bible Word Study (BWS) of a lemma includes distribution summary - can click for graphical report of occurrences in biblical genres. Also, BWS has grammatical relationship examples. Likewise, clicking BWS verses - look at context - may find synonyms. Hebrew BWS video also discusses couple fallacies (diachronic and restrictive) and polysemy (Hebrew & English).
Observation: Bible Study (and higher) packages include Dictionary of Biblical Languages (DBL) with Semantic Domains:
Aramaic => http://www.logos.com/product/691/a-dictionary-of-biblical-languages-w-semantic-domains-aramaic
Greek => http://www.logos.com/product/693/a-dictionary-of-biblical-languages-w-semantic-domains-greek (links to Louw-Nida lexcion)
Hebrew => http://www.logos.com/product/692/a-dictionary-of-biblical-languages-w-semantic-domains-hebrew
Logos has a blog entry about using DBL's Semantic Domains => http://blog.logos.com/archives/2005/09/_when_you_are_s.html
Logos has a product guide for Hebrew text and tools => http://www.logos.com/hebrew/ot - Technical commentary list includes UBS Handbooks => http://www.logos.com/product/7842/the-united-bible-societies-old-testament-handbook-series that tries to clearly describe what is being expressed in every verse, important for translation along with cross cultural illustrations (included with Scholar's Gold, Scholar's Platinum, and Portfolio)
Noticed an advanced set of reference grammars in pre-publication still gathering interest => http://www.logos.com/product/4679/biblical-languages-reference-grammars-and-introductions
Also noted pre-publication of Qumran Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls => http://www.logos.com/product/5961/qumran-biblical-dead-sea-scrolls-database with morphological tagging shipping soon.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Noticed an advanced set of reference grammars in pre-publication still gathering interest => http://www.logos.com/product/4679/biblical-languages-reference-grammars-and-introductions
There are some good items in this collection such as Smyth's Greek Grammar and Driver's A Treatise on the Use of the Tenses in Hebrew. There is also Westcott & Hort's Introduction to the New Testament in the Original Greek which sets forth the principles which they used (and which are largely still used) in textual criticism. Unfortunately there is a lot of dated, though perhaps still valuable, material in the collection. It might have better been divided into areas of interest such as Greek, Hebrew, Latin, other.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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There is an old Blog post that is relevant to this discussion. It is the basis for the video in the Hebrew series mentioned above. It can be found at: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/06/you_are_smarter_than_a_lexicon.html
Right-clicking on a word, selecting the lemma, and choosing Bible Word Study is a great way to study a word. Clicking on a word in the translation ring will show the passages where it occurs so that you can see the word in use for yourself. Keep in mind that you will want to view the context for each of those occurances to understand the meaning of the word in context. That is one of the keys to a word study. Don't just look at the verse. Examine it in context of the paragraph, chapter and book.
Windows 7, Nexus 7
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I want to thank everyone for their very good advice! I appreciate every comment, especially yours Denise - Very down to earth, common sense!
Blessing to all of you!
MarCya
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Thanks all - appreciated
Graham
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George Somsel said:
It might have better been divided into areas of interest such as Greek, Hebrew, Latin, other.
SYRIAC!!! That other language is called SYRIAC! I won't object if you ever put Dutch into the category "other" or "minority languages", but Syriac (and Aramaic as a whole) is too important for Biblical studies and patristics to be classified in this way.
Denise Barnhart said:I don't mean this to sound too obvious, but to get what a specific word means in a specific verse, the only real way to to compare the english translations.
And perhaps you could compare a few non-english translations as well? [;)]
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Excellent suggestion concerning multiple languages, especially if you're multi-lingual. One of the early US presidents had his personal NT verse favorites in 4 languages, of which he was fluent in all four.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
Excellent suggestion concerning multiple languages, especially if you're multi-lingual. One of the early US presidents had his personal NT verse favorites in 4 languages, of which he was fluent in all four.
I'm guessing, but I would suppose that would have been Jefferson.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I don’t mean to sound snarky or ungrateful for all your help, because I VERY much appreciate every comment. But truthfully - I didn’t understand many of the answers.
I am an uneducated grandmother who accepted Christ at the age of 9. I have read my bible nearly every day since, and still have thousands of questions.
Even though I am not the sharpest tack in the box, I LOVE scripture, and try my best to understand it – and I so believe I have a pretty good command of scripture thanks to the Holy Spirit. But what I am looking for now, in this day and age is a better understanding of the words which people seem to be changing with time; such as, “The number ONE in I Timothy 3:2 means one at a time, instead of one living wife period! I want to be able to know exactly how that word and many, many, others were meant originally. Too often people go to the bible to try and justify their own opinions/sin rather than seeking ONLY truth no matter what that truth might be.
So thank you all again for your very courteous, and extensive answers – but if there is someone who can offer something a little more at my level I would surly appreciate it!
I have the basic LOGOS program and can’t afford to upgrade or buy more references. I will have to make do. I also do not know how to prioritize a certain reference once I find it.
Blessings to all who seek God's Holy Truths.
MarCya
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MarCia Mooney said:
But what I am looking for now, in this day and age is a better understanding of the words which people seem to be changing with time; such as, “The number ONE in I Timothy 3:2 means one at a time, instead of one living wife period! I want to be able to know exactly how that word and many, many, others were meant originally.
Honestly, there would be no way to tell for sure what Paul had in his mind when he wrote it, nor what Timothy would have understood by this.
But we can study what he said and he literally (as best as I can do) said this: "It's necessary then that the overseer be irreproachable, of one woman a man, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, a skillful teacher." (That's pretty close to how the Lexham English Bible does it -- one of, if not the most literal in the Logos library.)
Now most take 'of one woman a man' to mean 'a one woman man,' or less literally, but a (probably) more accurate translation 'a husband of one woman.' Whether we should see this as 'a husband of one woman at a time,' or 'a husband of one and only woman for his life-time,' would be difficult to decide, since Paul doesn't specify. So we know what he said, but we are hard pressed to make that statement answer our question about whether he was talking about marital faithfulness (a 'one-woman man' marital infidelity was not uncommon in the cultural context), polygamy (unlikely in that cultural context), the matter of divorce & remarrying (not unheard of in that cultural context), or even whether an overseer who becomes a widower should abstain from marrying again (let alone whether a single man may be an overseer).
There are three steps in the interpretive process, and in this case step one is pretty easy. It's steps two and three that we find difficult. Here are those steps: 1) What does it say? 2) What did it mean to the original listeners? 3) What does it mean for us today? Your question that opened this discussion is about that first step. Sometimes the second step is obvious, after having done the first. Other times, it's not quite so clear. In this case a Bible Background Commentary can be somewhat helpful, but (IMHO) can't really settle the issue.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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MarCia Mooney said:
“The number ONE in I Timothy 3:2 means one at a time, instead of one living wife period! I want to be able to know exactly how that word and many, many, others were meant originally.
Do you have the New English Translation (NET Bible) in your Logos library? If not, you can access it at http://biblia.com/. The NET Bible contains all kinds of notes which can help you understand the original text better. The note at I Timothy 3:2 says:
4 tn Or “a man married only once,” “devoted solely to his wife” (see 1 Tim 3:12; 5:9; Titus 1:6).
The meaning of this phrase is disputed. It is frequently understood to
refer to the marital status of the church leader, excluding from
leadership those who are (1) unmarried, (2) polygamous, (3) divorced, or
(4) remarried after being widowed. A different interpretation is
reflected in the NEB’s translation “faithful to his one wife.”As you can see (and as Richard already pointed out) the issue can't really be settled.
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Thank you Hendrik, that was MOST helpful. I copied your message with the hyperlinks and will keep it handy for further use.
I have the Lexham English Bible and was wondering if there is a sister book for the Old Testament that I might already have in my Logos 4.2 study program?
Thanks again for you help! ... MarCya...
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MarCia Mooney said:
I have the basic LOGOS program and can’t afford to upgrade or buy more references.
Wondering if you have purchased a Logos 4 base package ? (e.g. Home, Bible Study, Original Languages, Scholar's, etc)
Logos has a comparison chart of resources => http://www.logos.com/comparison - some Logos 4 program features need appropriate resources.
MarCia Mooney said:But what I am looking for now, in this day and age is a better understanding of the words which people seem to be changing with time; such as, “The number ONE in I Timothy 3:2 means one at a time, instead of one living wife period! I want to be able to know exactly how that word and many, many, others were meant originally.
Concur with Kevin Becker's initial response:
Kevin Becker said:What you ask is difficult because there can be disagreement over what specific nuance a word conveys in particular contexts.
United Bible Societies (UBS) Handbook suggests a footnote for 1 Timothy 3:2 for ONE contextual nuance:
... Next, the bishop must be the husband of one wife. This looks as if it does not need further explanation, but the statement is more complicated than it seems. Does it mean, for example, that bishops should be married, and that unmarried men are disqualified? Or is this a statement against polygamy, so that a man with more than one wife cannot become a bishop? Or again, does this prohibit second marriages, so that a man who desires to be a bishop should not get married again, even though he is divorced or even if his first wife dies? (See for example, the note in TEV.) Or, finally, does this put stress on faithfulness to one’s wife? (See, for example, NEB “faithful to his one wife.”) This last interpretation assumes that the person is married, but it does not rule out polygamy, divorce, and remarriage, and does not necessarily prohibit a widower from marrying again. All four options are possible, although the last option may have some advantages, since unfaithfulness in the marriage relationship was a common occurrence in the world of the New Testament. If translators follow this final option “faithful to his one wife,” then they should put the other main option “have only one wife” in a footnote. ...
Arichea, D. C., & Hatton, H. (1995). A handbook on Paul's letters to Timothy and to Titus. UBS handbook series; Helps for translators (66–67). New York: United Bible Societies.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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MarCia, Hendrik-Jan's last answer (NET Bible Notes from Logos) is indeed the best, for a quick, pretty complete, and specific answers, I use it constantly, especially when I'm a church. I'm guessing you have the basic Logos package for home study? If so, then your next best choice is to use your Bible Knowledge Commentary, which I also use when I'm at church for quick answers. It's similar to NET and you should have it in your package. Like NET, it explains the use of the words in a verse, especially where it's not clear. It's indexed by verse; you can either type in the passage, or link your commentary to your Bible and it will follow your study. It tends to be conservative, which I think you prefer.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Yes I was raised conservative - but honestly that's not the issue! Conservative or liberal is NOT what I seek, because both can be wrong. I just want truth - I don't care one way or the other what that truth is – I am not looking to justify my opinions, I just want to KNOW for a fact that when I teach my kids something in Sunday School class, I can feel certain that I am not teaching heresy! I’ve taught Sunday school for over 40 years now and I try my very best to teach the Holy Scripture without putting my own personal slant on things. I believe that would be a sin and I pray to God that I NEVER mislead any of these young minds. That’s why it is so important for me to understand the words as they were originally intended!
As far as the Bible Knowledge Commentary – it has been my best tool for years, but I still try to rely on the Holy Spirit as much as possible before I resort to commentaries.
Thanks again Denise!
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MarCia Mooney said:
was wondering if there is a sister book for the Old Testament
Not yet but it will come eventually I think.
As others have implied and I am sure you already know, the Bible is not like a legal document where every possible interpretation is taken into account. Take the possibilities offered from LEB and NET and compare to similar passages. They may narrow the possibilities. Then just do your best knowing that you've done your best and still have questions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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said:
