A Gift to ALL Catholics smile

Milford Charles Murray

Peace to all! And! Joy in the Lord!

I always share that I am part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. *smile*

There is only one true church composed of all true believers.

I don't want to get into any theological discussions that in any way abuse the Forum Guidelines.

But, today I want to share something that I find very beautiful..... *smile*

MJ has given us some details about the term "catholic" in the past, e.g. this old, old post: (from her point of view)

MJ. Smith Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 5:08 PM

Robert Pavich:
Roman Catholic

Robert, you may already know this but may I give a technical adjustment? Yes, I know this is 'off topic' but it's interesting trivia.
Roman Catholic is short-hand for Roman Rite Catholic. The Catholic Church includes:

Roman liturgical tradition
Latin (Roman) Rite
Mozarabic Rite
Anglican use (recently expanded)
Ambrosian Rite
Braga Rite
Dominican Rite
Carthusian Rite
Carmelite Rite

Alexandrian liturgical tradition
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church

Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
Maronite Church
Syriac Catholic Church[
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Armenian liturgical tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church

Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Church

Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
Albanian Greek Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church[
Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
And yes, there are a few others but I can't find their names at the moment.

So I guess there is 'catholic' (single, early church), Catholic (American default of Roman Catholic), CATHOLIC (all the rites that somehow ultimate are in communion with the Bishop of Rome a.k.a. the Pope) and CATHOLIC (add in schismatics but not heretics)
Now I promise to sit down and shut up. Zip it!

            * * * * *

         Just smiled again, MJ! As I did the first time I read it...

O.K.!               My gift!            Particularly to MJ and Damian, Brother and Sister! *smile* BTW   I am Lutheran!

I've been to the Sistine Chapel! What a wonderful experience!

     Now, courtesy of the Vatican, you can go there too! Right now!

Be patient with yourself as you navigate this web site. Move your mouse around. Fantastic technology! You can see the ceiling also, the floors, the walls, zoom in and out, listen to marvelous music on your speakers.    Wow!

http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

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Comments

Rosie Perera

That is a beautiful website!! Beautiful music and art! Thank you for the gift.

TCBlack

It is breathtaking in it's scale and breadth.

I am curious, are the wall hangings concealing more fresco's or are there plain walls beneath, or perhaps other areas beyond?

Andreas Holmberg

Thank you for the link to the Sistine Chapel.

I've been to the Vatican Museum twice and the chapel is outright awesome! Plus it's where the cardinals gather when they are to elect a new pope.

However, the chapel is much more peaceful and serene on the internet than in real life. So many people squeezing to get in and guards yelling out every other minute to "keep silent" and not to take photos. Nonetheless the chapel and the whole Vatican Museum together with the Egypt Museum in Cairo and the British Museum in London are, in my mind, the top three museums of the world.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222555#Comment_222555

However, the chapel is much more peaceful and serene on the internet than in real life. So many people squeezing to get in and guards yelling out every other minute to "keep silent" and not to take photos.

I've been told that the trick to being able to see it with fewer people is to go first thing in the morning, rush past all the other museum rooms and go straight to the Sistine Chapel. You'll be the first ones there and can have a bit of peace and quiet while the rest of the tourists are looking at other (wonderful) stuff in the museum. Then if you want to go see the rest of the museum, you do have to pay for a second entrance ticket and start over again, because they funnel you through one way and there's no returning. But it's worth the double price of admission to have the Sistine Chapel almost to yourself for a few moments. EDIT: Then again, now that I've divulged this secret online, everyone's going to want to do it...

Hapax Legomena

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222558#Comment_222558

I did the "reverse entry" trick to the Sistine when I visited the Vatican Museums in college (1982). The chapel is nomally at the end of the one-way tour. I went "backwards" and arrived there first. I was in the chapel alone for 15 minutes! Unforgettable.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222574#Comment_222574

A (now retired) curator of the Vatican museums was a Western province Dominican (as is my parish). For several years the church auction included a private tour of the Sistine chapel that began 1 hour before the chapel opened. Shall we say the bidding was frenzied?[:)]

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222606#Comment_222606

An historic protestant does not see himself as a schismatic, he sees himself as adhering to the Church and refusing to embrace apostasy.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222609#Comment_222609

Mike your post is not only not on topic, it is also dangerously close to breaching the Forum Guidelines. Don't forget to read them.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222617#Comment_222617

My post was in direct response to the topic being discussed and in particular the statement made that CATHOLIC included schismatics. How on earth can it not be on topic when it interacts directly with the opening post? I also attempted not to be polemical.

To label someone a schismatic is a very serious allegation, I was just pointing out that this was an assertion that is a matter of perspective.

Why not point out the original allegation was " dangerously close to breaching the Forum Guidelines"?

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222635#Comment_222635

Mike--sure, I wouldn't like being labeled a schismatic, either. But I took it all with a grain of salt. I think it is your more extreme "embrace apostasy" bit (that didn't need to be added to prove your point) that was the "kicker."

(and I come from a branch that sometimes has graphed themselves as rooted completely to the "New Testament church" and completely bypasses 1700 years of history and ecclesiology. I obviously don't embrace that view point, even as I am still part of that crowd)

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222637#Comment_222637

Thanks for the view. I right clicked on it and went full screen and then clicked print screen and sent it to my desktop background. I will enjoy looking at it for a while.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222609#Comment_222609

An historic protestant does not see himself as a schismatic,

And Catholics do not see historic protestants as schismatics. This is not the language of my church.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222654#Comment_222654

And Catholics do not see historic protestants as schismatics. This is not the language of my church.

Welcome Damian - I trust life is calming down a bit for you. Let us know how it is going.

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222655#Comment_222655

[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222658#Comment_222658

I will wallow in irenic silence.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222635#Comment_222635

To label someone a schismatic is a very serious allegation, I was just pointing out that this was an assertion that is a matter of perspective.

If you read closely you will note that I did not indicate at all who was schismatic or heretical. I assumed that historical Protestant Christians would place themselves as the first meaning of the term - the small c catholic.

When you are more familiar with the forums and my posts you will understand why my boss used to complain that I wrote too concisely and too precisely. He kepts reminding me it didn't cost any more to add additional words[;)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222654#Comment_222654

An historic protestant does not see himself as a schismatic,

And Catholics do not see historic protestants as schismatics. This is not the language of my church.

Editted:

Damian - I trust you noted that I did not apply that language to historic Protestants either. I was just ensuring that I wasn't accused of including some of the early sects that were semi-Christian. ... it took how many months for someone to think I was referring to Protestants when the original point was that there are a variety of senses of "Catholic" - universal sense, popular sense, more accurate popular sense and 'shared communion' sense. I omitted from the discussion any group that would not apply "catholic" to themselves.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222609#Comment_222609

An historic protestant does not see himself as a schismatic, he sees himself as adhering to the Church and refusing to embrace apostasy.

Your sentence is technically correct. But not all believe in one true church!

Some readers may be unfamiliar with perspectives that reject one universal church. Check out these terms:

Close Communion (Necessary because a member of one independent congregation is not a member of others)

"Baptist Briders" (multiplicity of the brides of Christ, acceptance proven by the parable of 10 virgins)

Ecclesia in connection with an end days rapture. (Idea: the one church comes into existence only when the many churches are raptured)

Baptist Succession (Idea: the true church precedes the crucifixion of Christ and was started by John the Baptist. Jesus was baptized into this church and it has an unbroken succession from the beginning. Believers have been called by many names other than "Baptist".) I actually have a book that asserts this claim.

There are other viewpoints expressed through church polity and "Restoration Movements" like Campbelism, Pentecostalism, Mormonism. Look at these resources:

Perspectives Series (4 vols.)

Zondervan Counterpoints Collection (14 vols.)

I have worshiped with IFB congregations since 1996 but find myself embracing the one (universal) body of Christ because of Romans 6:3-5 . I know we can play the semantics game and say all true believers are of the "family of God" but then the denial they have been baptized into the same body seems contradictory.

ps: I also believe the Church began on the day of Pentecost. [A]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222635#Comment_222635

My post was in direct response to the topic being discussed and in particular the statement made that CATHOLIC included schismatics. How on earth can it not be on topic when it interacts directly with the opening post? I also attempted not to be polemical.

To label someone a schismatic is a very serious allegation, I was just pointing out that this was an assertion that is a matter of perspective.

Why not point out the original allegation was " dangerously close to breaching the Forum Guidelines"?

Let's just say that referring to someone's views as "apostasy" is rather unfriendly. There is surely a better way to express yourself such as "embrace a view which does not, in our opinion, comport with the scripture"? We can disagree and even detail our disagreements without what basically amounts to calling names.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222655#Comment_222655

Welcome Damian - I trust life is calming down a bit for you. Let us know how it is going.

Thanks Floyd,

Not yet calming down. One of our schools received about 3/4 million dollars in damage. Minor damage everywhere else - including my house... Lot's of work to be done and contractors to employ.

Four funerals in two days last week. One funeral from before the cyclone to go.

Everything that was postponed still has to happen. So, the next week will also be quite frantic. I definitely know that I'm alive.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222671#Comment_222671

Damian - I trust you noted that I did not apply that language to historic Protestants either.

Martha, you weren't even in my mind. I was simply responding to Mike.

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222655#Comment_222655

[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]

steve clark

Thanks Milford!

That is a very nice site.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222673#Comment_222673

I have worshiped with IFB congregations since 1996 but find myself embracing the one (universal) body of Christ

I have attended—and served as pastor—or IFB Churches longer than that, and I have always embraced, and taught, the one (universal) Body of Christ. In fact, that was taught in the IFB college I attended (not by all professors, however). But, then, I was never your typical IFB pastor. [:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222637#Comment_222637

I wouldn't like being labeled a schismatic, either. But I took it all with a grain of salt.

A final point for sake of clarity: The Great Schism is the common description of the split of the Byzantine and Western churches circa 1054. This is the context that I expected schismatic to be read. The primary split within the Western Church is known as the Reformation, which as Matthew has shown resulted in groups that consider themselves "catholic" and groups that do not. A post on the use of the term "catholic" does not include the latter group.

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222735#Comment_222735

I don't want to get into any theological discussions that in any way abuse the Forum Guidelines.

But, today I want to share something that I find very beautiful.....

[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]

Why play the catholic card at all? Why not just offer the gift to anyone who is interested? Why assume that "non catholics" would not appreciate great art? Dredging up a year-old inflammatory thread is not my idea of promoting peace.

God Bless

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222735#Comment_222735

I wouldn't like being labeled a schismatic, either. But I took it all with a grain of salt.

A final point for sake of clarity: The Great Schism is the common description of the split of the Byzantine and Western churches circa 1054. This is the context that I expected schismatic to be read. The primary split within the Western Church is known as the Reformation, which as Matthew has shown resulted in groups that consider themselves "catholic" and groups that do not. A post on the use of the term "catholic" does not include the latter group.

no worries here, Martha! But thanks, anyway. (and notice I did not say "I don't" but, I wouldn't . . . [;)]

K.J.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222740#Comment_222740

I don't want to get into any theological discussions that in any way abuse the Forum Guidelines.

But, today I want to share something that I find very beautiful.....

HHHMMMmmm~~~

[Y]

Why play the catholic card at all? Why not just offer the gift to anyone who is interested? Why assume that "non catholics" would not appreciate great art? Dredging up a year-old inflammatory thread is not my idea of promoting peace.

[Y]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222740#Comment_222740

Dredging up a year-old inflammatory thread is not my idea of promoting peace.

Folks - this has become bizarre. What is inflammatory about giving the following definitions:

catholic with a small c includes everyone who wants to be considered part of a/the universal church
Catholic with a capital C is the common vernacular shortcut for the vernacular "Roman Catholic"
Catholic with a capital C more accurately includes all the rites tied in some manner to the bishop of Rome
Catholic with a capital C can be justifiably expanded to include those who are considered schismatic - otherwise defined as those who under the right conditions may share the reception of the Eucharist with those tied in some manner to the bishop of Rome

Why a historic Protestant would assume that these definitions label them schismatic - unless they believe ecumenical conversations have led to a mutual understanding of a schismatic relationship - is beyond me. The definitions clearly relate to the definition of "catholic" - not to definitions of Christian, Protestant, schismatic, heretic ... For people to object to how someone chooses to label a thread that is a gift to all forum users is [select term of choice] - the post clearly was intended to be especially of interest to Catholics not exclusively for Catholics. The post was clearly intended to be a thank you for broadening the understanding of what composes the "Catholic Church". So let me accept the thanks with a "you are welcome - and thank you for the link" with a by now rather cross "enough already."

fgh

I've been to the Sistine Chapel! What a wonderful experience!
Now, courtesy of the Vatican, you can go there too! Right now!
Be patient with yourself as you navigate this web site. Move your mouse around. Fantastic technology! You can see the ceiling also, the floors, the walls, zoom in and out, listen to marvelous music on your speakers. Wow!
http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

Also don't miss the Necropolis under St Peter, with Peter's grave: http://www.vatican.va/various/basiliche/necropoli/scavi_english.html. It's bit tricky to navigate, but worth it. And don't miss going there if you're in Rome. You might need to book in advance, though.

I am curious, are the wall hangings concealing more fresco's or are there plain walls beneath, or perhaps other areas beyond?

I suspect that the "wall hangings" are frescos. [;)]

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222935#Comment_222935

So let me accept the thanks with a "you are welcome - and thank you for the link" with a by now rather cross "enough already."

You get to determine what is "enough"? You can be as grumpy as you like for as long as you like...but last I heard...you are a forum participant, just like we commoners. I didn't challenge your definitions of the word "catholic", nor did I imply that they were inflammatory. I said the thread was inflammatory. Anyone who checked to see where the OP's quote came from will, indeed find a very inflammatory thread. I still see no need to go down that road again. If someone want's to supply a link to a site that displays the Sistine Chapel, Why does it have to be exclusively for capital C Catholics? That just causes further division...when just simply offering that link to the whole forum could serve to unify the members.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222941#Comment_222941

Also don't miss the Necropolis under St Peter, with Peter's grave: http://www.vatican.va/various/basiliche/necropoli/scavi_english.html. It's bit tricky to navigate, but worth it. And don't miss going there if you're in Rome. You might need to book in advance, though.

You can book a gravesite there? [6]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222943#Comment_222943

So let me accept the thanks with a "you are welcome - and thank you for the link" with a by now rather cross "enough already."

You get to determine what is "enough"? You can be as grumpy as you like for as long as you like...but last I heard...you are a forum participant, just like we commoners. I didn't challenge your definitions of the word "catholic", nor did I imply that they were inflammatory. I said the thread was inflammatory. Anyone who checked to see where the OP's quote came from will, indeed find a very inflammatory thread. I still see no need to go down that road again. If someone want's to supply a link to a site that displays the Sistine Chapel, Why does it have to be exclusively for capital C Catholics? That just causes further division...when just simply offering that link to the whole forum could serve to unify the members.

Sam, practice what your name implies and just be silent on this subject. MJ is one of the most amicable persons on the forum -- unlike me since I'm a curmugeon. If she say "Enough", believe me when I say "It's enough." Or, in the immortal words of Archie Bunker -- "STIFLE."

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222945#Comment_222945

Or, in the immortal words of Archie Bunker -- "STIFLE."

I can quote Archie, too ! "Who rattled your chain, Meathead?"

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222947#Comment_222947

I can quote Archie, too ! "Who rattled your chain, Meathead?"

You did. Besides, at least there's something in the head.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222947#Comment_222947

The post stated that CATHOLIC included all those in communion with Rome (or schismatics) and excluded heretics.

Why this was said I have no idea, but you cannot go around making statements like that and expect it to go unchallanged. It has since been pointed out that Rome does not view protestants as schismatics so where does that leave us?

It is not a question of being insulting, as a statement of theology I am sure it is very respectable from its own perspective but for a statement like this to be made and then to say how terrible it is that it is challenged is ridiculous.

This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222944#Comment_222944

You can book a gravesite there?

You can book a gravesite on the floor above -- if you get yourself elected pope first. [:P]

(I believe the one last occupied by John Paul II is being vacated. I also believe that's the same one that was earlier occupied by John XXIII, so it's housed at least two saints, and is nicely situated opposite the grave of our Swedish queen Kristina (who, btw, before she abdicated and converted, was seriously planning to make the entire future US a Swedish colony [:D]))

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222956#Comment_222956

This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

Precisely, so let's get back to the subject.

K.J.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222958#Comment_222958

This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

Precisely, so let's get back to the subject.

We should use you as an example of how to stay on topic? [:D] I see a new MVP on the horizon.

You can book a gravesite there?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222956#Comment_222956

Why this was said I have no idea, but you cannot go around making statements like that and expect it to go unchallanged. It has since been pointed out that Rome does not view protestants as schismatics so where does that leave us?

If you read what has been said multiple times:

1. many Protestants consider themselves as catholic with a small c - that is where those Protestants go

2. Protestants who do not consider themselves as catholic with a small c are not covered - the definitions are for "catholic" which is a subset of "Christian".

Can you please explain to me what the grounds for the challenge are? Am I obligated to say:

I wish to describe the various uses of the word "Catholic"
Before I can do so, I must define the word "Christian"
Before I can do so, I must define the term "member of a religious organization"
Before I can do so, I must define "religion"
Before I can do so, I must define "belief"
Before I can do so, I must define "consciousness"
Before I can do so, I must define "living being"
Before I can do so, I must define "created"
Before I can do so, I must define "creator"
Before I can do so, I must define .... oops, I guess I do have a problem[:D]

This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

And the Oxford English Dictionary is a theological text? I agree the forum is for Logos ... and no doctrinal position has been pushed. Be glad you all aren't my kids ... I'd make you apologize to Milford before you could have supper.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222962#Comment_222962

Milford - Thanks for the link. I've never been there but would love to go.

George - I had to look up the word "curmugeon". Never seen it before - I learned something.

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222962#Comment_222962

Be glad you all aren't my kids

Oh, Believe me. I am glad...I may be elated ! [:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222967#Comment_222967

Be glad you all aren't my kids

Oh, Believe me I am glad...I may be elated !

[Y]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222966#Comment_222966

George - I had to look up the word "curmugeon". Never seen it before - I learned something.

Not original with me. I believe MJ first called me that -- possibly offlist.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222962#Comment_222962

Be glad you all aren't my kids ... I'd make you apologize to Milford before you could have supper.

No pie ! No pie !
And you shall have no pie !

[:D]

Paul C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222961#Comment_222961

[Y]

This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

Precisely, so let's get back to the subject.

We should use you as an example of how to stay on topic? I see a new MVP on the horizon.

You can book a gravesite there?

[Y]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222961#Comment_222961

I see a new MVP on the horizon.

I seriously doubt that.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222941#Comment_222941

I am curious, are the wall hangings concealing more fresco's or are there plain walls beneath, or perhaps other areas beyond?

I suspect that the "wall hangings" are frescos.

Really? I thought they were tapestries. I've just had another look and I seriously can't tell, They still look like tapestries. If those are frescos than Michelangelo was even more talented than I thought! Just an observation.

Seriously I can't imagine the talent that went into painting all of this...on a scaffold...on your back...day after day.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/223101#Comment_223101

If those are frescos than Michelangelo was even more talented than I thought!

There are lots of older houses in Stockholm and other places where you'd walk in believing you saw marble and mahogany or walnut or something, but all it is is cheap pine wood and some paint. And doors, windows, draperies, statues may well be paint as well. In the old days any decent painter could do it. It was much cheaper than actually using mahogany and so on. And I'm not talking about the artistic kind of painter, I'm talking about the kind that paints your house. If those wall hangings are frescos, I doubt they were made by Michelangelo. More likely by a pupil. He would have had more important things to do.

It's called trompe-l'œil (cheat-the-eye). Have a look at Wikipedia for the real masters (just so you understand: the dome in that first picture doesn't actually exist).

Going there reminded me to look up the Sistine Chapel as well. Yes, they are painted: "The walls are divided into three main tiers. The lower is decorated with frescoed wall hangings in silver and gold." Though it seems that on special occasions there really are real tapestries there, copies of originals by Raphael, depicting the lives of Sts Peter and Paul.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222740#Comment_222740

Silent Sam Replied: Sat, Feb 19 2011 9:10 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

I don't want to get into any theological discussions that in any way abuse the Forum Guidelines.

But, today I want to share something that I find very beautiful.....

Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

God Bless

Dear Silent Sam! *smile*

And, indeed, Peace to you and Joy in the Lord always!

Thank you for your post! *smile*

Actually, I didn't find it pleasant; but, in retrospect, it is likely good that you posted! *smile*

In retrospect perhaps you do have a valid point. Perhaps I should have posted differently. If I had any intimation that this would “flame up,” I most certainly would have.

I read your post last Saturday evening, have ruminated over it many hours before I now respond. I have talked to the Lord about it extensively and pondered whether I should even reply. I have decided to reply, and may God bless my words that go out!

The point I was trying to make when I sent my original post -– entitled as you know -- A Gift to ALL Catholics -- *smile* -- is that both capital C Catholics and small C catholics have much in common and much to be thankful for in spite of various differences. I believe that the Holy Spirit can work more harmony between us as together all we Christians face a very dark and difficult world -- as we live here in these eschatological times which for various reasons we call “the last days,” with all the wars and rumours of war and all the other signs of the last times.

I recognise that there are many serious doctrinal differences between denominations. For sure! However, let us at least talk to one another and recognise our "common Christianity," if you will. I know I should expand further in this area, but my post is long enough without that! There is a lack of a better description of this point available to my mind at this moment.

This predates St. Peter’s Basilica which was begun in 1506, but not completed until 1626. One of the things that kicked off the Reformation was Luther saying in his 95 Theses posted on the Castle Church door in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517 -- (my translation) ”Hey! Let’s talk about those Indulgences for St. Peter’s. Seems to me that this doesn’t mesh with the teachings of Holy Scripture. I want to go by Scripture!”

(Note: The 95 Theses are available from Logos, last I looked – in English and Latin – for the grand total sum of $ .95 American, 93 cents for Canadian dollars.)

It was at Rome at that time in 1510 that, supposedly, Luther discovered that “The Just Shall Live by Faith” meant truly that he who is justified by faith shall live. For Luther that centred on Jesus Christ and Him alone. Sola Scriptura, Sola Fidei, Sola Gratia! By Faith alone. By Grace alone. Based on the Holy Scriptures alone. (my translation) You, yourself, can research the whole story of Luther crawling up the steps meditating and praying at each one and ending up with this earth-shattering conclusion! That is a study on it's own.

Sadly The Great Schism (between the Eastern Church and the Western Church had already taken place. There was in the West only one Church with Rome as headquarters.

Because of that and for other reasons I feel that in a sense the Sistine Chapel is also important to me as a small “c” catholic. It is a lot more to me than “great art.” That’s why I was so excited and wanted to share that Web Site with my Logos Brothers and Sisters. It really is an incredible web site.

I had appreciated MJ’s post which - in my mind’s eye - I thought had cleared up some misunderstandings that various people have. Obviously I was wrong! *smile*

Wrong Again! *smile* It so often happens in my life! Like Fonzie, I don’t like to admit, “I was wrong!”

It is interesting to note that Logos Bible Study Magazine “confesses” a version of the Apostles’ Creed in every issue, one line of which reads: “we believe in the holy catholic church.” On the other hand, Logos lists its resources available to all - but of special interest to certain denominations - as Catholic, with a capital C.

Also, having experienced the forgiveness of my sins through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour, I continually praise our Triune God; and delight in the Peace of God that transcends all understanding. In spite of the difficulties and tears and sorrows of a normal life, His Divine Grace and the Holy Spirit within have given and keep me in Great Joy, if not always happiness. This Peace of God is so important to me that I truly, from the heart, wish others “Peace!,” even as did the Lord Jesus after His Resurrection and the Apostle Paul in so many references. And I have always made every effort to share that Peace and wish that Peace to others as I am able.

Concluding, some of my feelings are based on Ephesians 4, so very, very important to me!

Ephesians 4TH CHAPTER
Christ’s Gifts to the Church

1 I, a prisoner in the Lord, encourage you to live the kind of life which proves that God has called you.

2 Be humble and gentle in every way. Be patient with each other and lovingly accept each other.

3 Through the peace that ties you together, do your best to maintain the unity that the Spirit gives.

4 There is one body and one Spirit. In the same way you were called to share one hope.

5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 one God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything.

7 God’s favor has been given to each of us. (ESV)

When I posted my original post, I recalled that Martin Luther at the age of 27 was sent to Rome on a pilgrimage and that he was there in 1510 even as Michaelangelo was on the scaffolds working on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. It is quite unlikely that they would have let him anywhere near the Sistine Chapel because of the construction activities. *smile*

And! Absolutely finally: (I wonder how many denominations have this in their hymnal! Lots, I would think!

The Church's One Foundation

1 The Church’s one foundation     Is Jesus Christ her Lord;
She is His new creation     By water and the Word.
From heav'n He came and sought her     To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her     And for her life He died.

2 Elect from ev'ry nation,     Yet one o’er all the earth,
Her charter of salvation:     One Lord, one faith, one birth.
One holy name she blesses,     Partakes one holy food,
And to one hope she presses,     With ev'ry grace endued.

3 Though with a scornful wonder     This world sees her oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,     By heresies distressed,
Yet saints their watch are keeping;     Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping     Shall be the morn of song.

4 Through toil and tribulation,     And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation     Of peace forevermore
Till with the vision glorious     Her longing eyes are blest,
And the great church victorious     Shall be the church at rest.

5 Yet she on earth has union     With God, the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion     With those whose rest is won.
O blessed heav'nly chorus!     Lord, save us by Your grace
That we, like saints before us.     May see You face to face.

Peace to you! And! Joy in the Lord always!