A Gift to ALL Catholics *smile*
Comments
-
K.J. said:
Do you speak of the time when a certain "religious organization"
Please reread the forum guidelines Where's our OTK when he's needed[8-)]?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
K.J. said:
Do you speak of the time
Nope.
Not remotely
I think it is time to revisit Milford's original post and quietly walk through that serene artwork.
Thanks again, Milford, Brother.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
You mean the Roman inquisition? See full article at Wikipedia.
The Roman inquisition was a system of tribunals developed by the Holy See during the second half of the 16th century, responsible for prosecuting individuals accused of a wide array of crimes related to heresy, including sorcery, immorality, blasphemy, Judaizing and witchcraft, as well for censorship of printed literature.
0 -
"By 1545 Rome was under the spell of a new austerity. Reform was on the rise. The immoralities of Paul’s younger days were no longer acceptable behavior. The pope’s new rigor was apparent in the institution of the Roman Inquisition and in the Index of prohibited books—works that any Catholic risked damnation by reading. All the books of the Reformers were listed, as well as Protestant Bibles. For a long time merely to possess one of these banned books in Spain was punishable by death. The Index was kept up to date until 1959 and was finally abolished by Pope Paul VI."
Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.) (274). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub.
"Inquisition Roman Catholic tribunal for the investigation, prosecution, and punishment of unrepentent heretics. In the Scriptures, the only punishment for heresy was excommunication, and the early fathers disapproved of physical penalties. According to St. John Chrysostom, putting a heretic to death was in itself “an inexpiable crime.” After Christianity became the state religion, the Catholic Church found it possible to use the power of civil authorities to suppress heresies and to discourage their spread. By 1184, under Pope Lucius III, it became the official policy of the Catholic Church to keep a watch on heretics and to hand over to civil authorities those who refused to recant."
Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson's new Christian dictionary : The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Pubs.
0 -
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
0 -
For crying out loud....
Again and again and again, these issues play out on the forums.
How on earth is this sort of a back and fro-ing edifying?
The forum guidelines were implemented precisely to counter this sort of discussion.
0 -
I think this thread is an example of what can happen when we try to make this forum something it's not nor was intended to be. With over 40,000 members you can not just "big tent" everyone and make blanket judgments about them, good or bad. That is unwise. This is not a brotherhood. It's not the church. It is a meeting place to talk about using Logos Bible Software. Fun and lighthearted is good. Slurs and stereotyping are not good. Just my two cents worth.
0 -
-
Brad Fry said:
This is not a brotherhood. It's not the church.
I think we can all agree on that. I remind you of the title of this thread. (A Gift to ALL Catholics *smile*) If people don't want their pet denomination investigated and commented on, Don't include it in the title or make it central in the original post. [:D]
Brad Fry said:Fun and lighthearted is good. Slurs and stereotyping are not good.
Studying the Word is GOOD. Promoting or Defending a particular denomination is NOT GOOD. Logos is BIBLE software, Not Catholic apologetic software.
0 -
Damian McGrath said:
For crying out loud....
Again and again and again, these issues play out on the forums.
How on earth is this sort of a back and fro-ing edifying?
The forum guidelines were implemented precisely to counter this sort of discussion.
I would agree that it is high time that this nonsense cease. Protestants can point to the Inquisition with justice, but there were similar occurances throughout Europe including about every group EXCEPT FOR the Anabaptists which never engaged in the persecution of those who disagreed with them though there was the Münster Rebellion which took a rather radical turn. It would seem that a climate of intollerance was a part of the cultural mileau of the time. In Geneva there was Michael Servetus (who would have been put to death anywhere in Europe whether in Calvinist, Lutheran, Church of England or Catholic domains). In England there was likewise persecution of Roman Catholics. It would seem that we continue to carry on old conflicts as though they were current events. It is time we put all of this behind us and, ONE AND ALL, acknowledge the brotherhood of all who profess Christ. This has, in some circles, become a continuous conflict resembling the Hattfields and the McCoys. Enough already ! It is time to live one's own faith without attempting to demonstrate that others are the enemy. Must we continue to relive the conflicts of another age ? It is history -- let it rest. Now, if we could only kill off the insane addiction to interlinears.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
It is time we put all of this behind us and, ONE AND ALL, acknowledge the brotherhood of all who profess Christ. This has, in some circles, become a continuous conflict resembling the Hattfields and the McCoys. Enough already ! It is time to live one's own faith without attempting to demonstrate that others are the enemy. Must we continue to relive the conflicts of another age ? It is history -- let it rest.
Your statement may or may not be correct, but these forums are not the place to propogate such views.
0 -
Mike Pettit said:
Your statement may or may not be correct, but these forums are not the place to propogate such views.
And I suppose that these forums are, in your opinion, the place to foment conflict between different groups of those who profess allegiance to Jesus Christ?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
It is history -- let it rest.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"... George Santayana
~
0 -
Abi Gail said:George Somsel said:
It is history -- let it rest.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"... George Santayana
Yes, remember it -- as a warning against its continuation and not as an excuse to continue it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
And I suppose that these forums are, in your opinion, the place to foment conflict between different groups
The fomenting was initiated in the very title of the thread. An attempt to sell snake oil will inevitably prompt some to challenge the salesman. Justifiably so.
It would seem that Newton was correct:
"Every action is accompanied by a reaction of equal magnitude but opposite direction."
0 -
K.J. said:George Somsel said:
And I suppose that these forums are, in your opinion, the place to foment conflict between different groups
The fomenting was initiated in the very title of the thread. An attempt to sell snake oil will inevitably prompt some to challenge the salesman. Justifiably so.
It would seem that Newton was correct:
"Every action is accompanied by a reaction of equal magnitude but opposite direction."
And so the very mention of the word "Catholic" is a provocation? I say to you "Hatfields" and "McCoys."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1st John 5:1-5)
0 -
Brad Stogsdill said:
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1st John 5:1-5)
One chapter earlier: [:)]
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
0 -
The slurs and stereotypying have come from both sides in this thread. We tend to overlook it when it's not against us.
0 -
Brad Stogsdill said:
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1stJohn 5:1-5)
Very good. Of equal importance is
1 John 4:7–21 (NRSV)
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. 15God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. 16So we have known and believe the love that God has for us.
God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. 17Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. 19We love because he first loved us. 20Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. 21The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
K.J. said:
One chapter earlier:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
1 Corinthians 1:10–14 (NRSV)
10Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. 11For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. 12What I mean is that each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I would remind you of the words of Benjamin Franklin: "If we do not all hang together, we shall most certainly all hang separately." We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam. I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam. We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos). These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English. Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions. There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed. It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24. In these the offensive material has largely been toned down. They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam. We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna. They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq. Will Europe and the United States be next? They will if we fight amongst ourselves.
I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.
It is possible to love our brothers and sisters without supporting the organization that is deceiving them.
0 -
K.J. said:
The fomenting was initiated in the very title of the thread.
You just don't know the original poster & author of the thread title. MCM would never desire to instigate division among believers. He was only sharing something of beauty with all readers.
Matthew 25:34-40 Mother Teresa did good works in the name of Jesus. It matters not what her earthly affiliations were.
Mark 9:41 The beautiful artwork Milford linked to was like a cup of cold water. It was refreshing and satisfying.
K.J. said:It is possible to love our brothers and sisters
without supporting the organization that is deceiving them.And did God tell you to correct all erroneous theology? You have your work cut out for you.
We should not judge people by a label. If I remember correctly MCM is Lutheran. The past actions of others doesn't really matter. I have enough sins of my own I can not pay for. I will not attempt to answer for another's.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
George Somsel said:
We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam.
You pretend to promote peace and harmony on the forums, Then open this can of worms. As our friend Silent Sam would say:
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
And did God tell you to correct all erroneous theology? You have your work cut out for you.
We should not judge people by a label. If I remember correctly MCM is Lutheran. The past actions of others doesn't really matter. I have enough sins of my own I can not pay for. I will not attempt to answer for another's.
As you boldly point out what you consider my errors?
0 -
K.J. said:George Somsel said:
We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam.
You pretend to promote peace and harmony on the forums, Then open this can of worms. As our friend Silent Sam would say:
HHHMMMmmm~~~ But in your opinion it is perfectly acceptable to attack a fellow Christian.
Duuuuh~~~ Perhaps we can have a diet of worms. [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Brad Fry said:
you can not just "big tent" everyone and make blanket judgments about them, good or bad. That is unwise. This is not a brotherhood. It's not the church
You are right Brad. I've said it before & I'll say it again. There is NO WAY POSSIBLE to reconcile all the different theological beliefs espoused in the content of Logos resources. They are mutually exclusive and by and large intolerant of other views. To adhere to one set of beliefs I have to reject 90% of the rest.
Milford's original post was not asking anyone to convert. (For the evangelicals among us: It is not an "altar call.") Most believers have a spiritual heritage. Most of us are proud of our own, some are ashamed of their own. The original post was only an attempt to share beauty from MCM's own spiritual heritage.
This did not need to become another "War of the Roses." Not every forum reader even claims the name of Jesus. But those of us who do need to defer judgement of others to the Lord. He knows who are his. 1 Kings 19:14 , 1 Kings 19:18
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
George Somsel said:
I would remind you of the words of Benjamin Franklin: "If we do not all hang together, we shall most certainly all hang separately." We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam. I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam. We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos). These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English. Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions. There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed. It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24. In these the offensive material has largely been toned down. They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam. We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna. They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq. Will Europe and the United States be next? They will if we fight amongst ourselves.
I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
This looks like something Glenn Beck would scribble on a chalkboard, Is that where you found it? [:P]
~
0 -
K.J. said:
As you boldly point out what you consider my errors?
I have not & will not address your theology. I would probably agree with a bulk of it ( Matthew shivers here )
I am only asking you to reconsider your application of it to flog a fellow Christian for holding out a sweet smelling rose.
Go read all the posts made by Milford Charles Murray and you will see his words are those of a gentle soul, a "Peacemaker." Within that context I think you will agree he wasn't espousing division, conversion or condemnation. Unity in love is what I see. And that is something the Lord said all Christians should want.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
George Somsel said:
Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime)
Now that should serve to quell the divisiveness. When the Tea Partiers crawl out from under their respective rocks, things will be much more peaceful.
0 -
Abi Gail said:George Somsel said:
I would remind you of the words of Benjamin Franklin: "If we do not all hang together, we shall most certainly all hang separately." We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam. I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam. We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos). These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English. Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions. There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed. It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24. In these the offensive material has largely been toned down. They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam. We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna. They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq. Will Europe and the United States be next? They will if we fight amongst ourselves.
I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
This looks like something Glenn Beck would scribble on a chalkboard, Is that where you found it?
I suppose the reference to Glenn Beck is supposed to be a putdown, but I assure you that I wrote it myself. If you don't like the truth, tough.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
K.J. said:
I remind you of the title of this thread. (A Gift to ALL Catholics *smile*) If people don't want their pet denomination investigated and commented on, Don't include it in the title or make it central in the original post.
K.J. said:The fomenting was initiated in the very title of the thread. An attempt to sell snake oil will inevitably prompt some to challenge the salesman.
Some people here -- most notably KJ -- must have totally missed that this thread was not started by a [Roman] Catholic! It was started by someone I believe is a Lutheran. One, I might add, who though he was being nice and inclusive when he referred to everyone here as Catholic, in the sense of the Creed, and probably didn't have a clue that some people might take offense.
No [Roman] Catholic here put that word in the title. No [Roman[ Catholic here has made any attempt to "sell snake oil". So why are [Roman] Catholics the ones being attacked??? If you want to "challenge the salesman", at least have the decency to challenge the OP, who made the sale, and not those completely innocent of that post! And why not do it by simply and kindly informing him that his innocent and kindly meant words were nevertheless offensive to you, instead of going straight into attack mode? You can't expect everyone here to know exactly what might be offensive to everyone else. I'm pretty sure, though, that you know very well when you yourself are being offensive, and you deliberately choose to be so, which is something very very different from accidentally offending someone while trying to be nice!
Oh, yes, in case you've missed it: I'm Lutheran too, so don't try to blame this post as well on Catholics! Though if I hadn't already been pretty catholic, threads like this would certainly make me so. The chasm between the poison on one side and the humility on the other is astonishing! The fruit and the tree, you know...
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
0 -
Luap said:George Somsel said:
Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime)
Now that should serve to quell the divisiveness. When the Tea Partiers crawl out from under their respective rocks, things will be much more peaceful.
Who is hiding under a rock? While I have never attended any Tea Party event, I am very much in agreement with it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
Milford's original post was not asking anyone to convert. (For the evangelicals among us: It is not an "altar call.") Most believers have a spiritual heritage. Most of us are proud of our own, some are ashamed of their own. The original post was only an attempt to share beauty from MCM's own spiritual heritage.
Milford strikes me as a wonderfully sweet guy. Not a doubt in my mind about that. Also no doubt that the original post was simply an attempt to share something beautiful. It was the inclusion of why everyone fits under the umbrella of "Catholic", including the "schismatics" that I believe many bridled at. I'll have to admit that my brow furrowed most when MJ expressed her disbelief that people could get so worked up about this because she "was raised as a Campbellite and even in that framework - Restoration "Protestant" can't see the problem nor imagine that my Church of Christ (with music think Standard Publishing flavor) pastor grandpa / elder dad could find a problem." Campbellite? "Even in that framework"? Hardly the words of peacemaking.
No one likes for their faith to be criticized. That's not to say there's not a place for that. But this is not that place, whether you are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist or Church of Christ. And no one likes for their faith to be ridiculed, period. I am grateful that my faith has been informed by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Alexander Campbell and C.S. Lewis. But most importantly I want my faith to be from Jesus Christ through his Word. Logos Bible Software is a tool toward that aim. This forum is at its best when it is used for that purpose.
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
Go read all the posts made by Milford Charles Murray and you will see his words are those of a gentle soul, a "Peacemaker."
I totally understand Milford's motives. I never believed that his motives were divisive. However, when he prefaced his post with a paragraph which seemed to promote the theory that all Christians must be catholic(on some level, by some definition)...like it or not. Debate was inevitable.
If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination, then try to sell the theory that everyone is part of that movement...like it or not, what do you think the outcome would be?
0 -
George, George.. I was going to complement you for some of your posts here earlier today, and then you have to bring up islam and politics and destroy all the good you did. Shame!
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
0 -
fgh said:
George, George.. I was going to complement you for some of your posts here earlier today, and then you have to bring up islam and politics and destroy all the good you did. Shame!
Like Hester Prin in The Scarlet Letter I will wear that which was intended as an affront as a badge of honor. Someone needs to mention the elephant in the room.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
fgh said:
If you want to "challenge the salesman", at least have the decency to challenge the OP, who made the sale, and not those completely innocent of that post!
By the time I entered the conversation, that challenge had been made. I saw no need to repeat it:
Silent Sam said:Why play the catholic card at all? Why not just offer the gift to anyone who is interested? Why assume that "non catholics" would not appreciate great art? Dredging up a year-old inflammatory thread is not my idea of promoting peace.
And furthermore it's not so much that Milford was the one selling snake oil first hand, but rather, quoting a sales pitch that he had bought into.
0 -
K.J. said:
If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination,
Milford wasn't using the name of a denomination, but a word from the Creed, a word which most Protestants would be offended to be denied, not to be called.
K.J. said:what do you think the outcome would be?
Easy, I'm quite happy to be both catholic, orthodox and evangelical! As are Catholics and Orthodox everywhere, and, I would hope, most Protestants.
K.J. said:By the time I entered the conversation, that challenge had been made. I saw no need to repeat it.
But you did see the need to attack Catholics and the Catholic Church?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
0 -
K.J. said:
If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination, then try to sell the theory that everyone is part of that movement...like it or not, what do you think the outcome would be?
I believe the original post was espousing the unity of believers in one body. I don't think it was a denominational claim over everyone's souls.
The word "catholic" with a small "c" means universal. The vast majority of Christianity embraces this concept. I was shocked to learn a few years ago there are groups who believe in not in just a multiplicity of congregations, but in a multiplicity of Churches with a capital "C." That is to say: a multiplicity of the bodies of Christ! While I can not reconcile this theological view with my understanding of scriptures, I welcome those holding such views to the Logos forums. Who knows, with enough Bible study they may amend their views to be more closely aligned to mine [:D].
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
fgh said:
But you did see the need to attack Catholics and the Catholic Church?
I would disagree with that assessment. I do not attack the members of the organization. They are lambs to the slaughter. My issue is with the organization deceiving them, And any attempt to connect me with that organization.
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
The word "catholic" with a small "c" means universal. The vast majority of Christianity embraces this concept.
I am not convinced that is the case. On what statistics do you base such a supposition? Even if the majority does hold that opinion, does that require the minority to accept their view...and be herded under that umbrella? Furthermore, it is the attempt to promote that theory that derailed the OP's original intent.
Ex 23:2
You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice
NASU
0 -
An appeal to all Catholics and Catholic defenders. A fire will go out if you quit adding wood. So please follow the example of our Savior and allow yourself to be wronged and hopefully this thread will die.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
Wiki Table of Contents0 -
K.J. said:
And any attempt to connect me with that organization.
It is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the concept of "one body of Christ." Further discussion without a semantic common ground will be fruitless.
K.J. said:They are lambs to the slaughter. My issue is with the organization deceiving them,
An unsaved co-worker of mine was very adamant about his commitment not to accept "the mark of the beast" in the last days. I tried to explain to him it was not the refusal of the "666" that would save him, but the calling on the name of Jesus..
Likewise it is not the refusal to be a member of any denomination that gets you saved, but the calling on the name of Jesus.
How scary it will be for some to get to Heaven and discover there are some "Catholics" living there, purchased by the blood of the Lamb! [:D]
1 John 4:15 1 John 4:19-21 1 John 5:1
No organization posted in this thread. Only people who have called on the name of Jesus.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Brad Fry said:
because she "was raised as a Campbellite
First, let's not hold Milford responsible for what Martha said. I have always been intrigued with why people part ways with their childhood spiritual upbringing. I am a great fan of Francis A. Schaeffer. I was a bit surprised with his son Frank's move to Orthodox Christianity. disclosure: I have been attending an IFB church since 1996.
I share the "Campbelitte" heritage with MJ, yourself, and about a dozen other forum regulars. My Bible college transcript sits in a file cabinet in Joplin, MO. (Hometown to College Press.) My parents attended seminary in Cincinnati and were missionaries for the Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ. Rich Mullins also attended Bible college there and felt it good to write a song called "Creed" Here is verse 3: (emphasis mine)
I believe in God the Father
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son our Lord
I believe in the Holy Spirit
One Holy Church
The communion of Saints
The forgiveness of sin
I believe in the resurrection
I believe in a life that never endsWhat do Martin Luther, Alexander Campbell, and the Wesley brothers have in common? None of them intended to start a denomination. They were only students of the Bible trying their best to be faithfully obedient.
Brad Fry said:But most importantly I want my faith to be from Jesus Christ through his Word. Logos Bible Software is a tool toward that aim. This forum is at its best when it is used for that purpose.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
It is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the concept of "one body of Christ
What is clear is that you are not qualified to judge what I am familiar with. The "Body of Christ" existed long before it was associated with the word "catholic"
Matthew C Jones said:How scary it will be for some to get to Heaven and discover there are some "Catholics" living there, purchased by the blood of the Lamb!
NO ! That thought has never crossed my mind, or passed over my lips. The grass roots Catholic who is applying the information that they have, sincerely believing they are doing the will of God, will be judged accordingly.
Rom 2:14-16
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
The ones who Will Not be there are the higher-ups in the "religious organizations" who knowingly deceive the flock.
Matt 18:6
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
0 -
K.J. said:
The grass roots Catholic who is applying the information that they have, sincerely believing they are doing the will of God, will be judged accordingly.
No to "Roman Catholics" but yes to "Romans catholics"? I see , uh, I mean, I understand. (gotta avoid those Catholic terms you know. [:O] )
K.J. said:The ones who Will Not be there are the higher-ups in the "religious organizations" who knowingly deceive the flock.
caveat: ....Offensive theological idea about to be stated. Don't say I gave no warning.
The way I understand the whole redemption thing, there is no sin so great the blood of Jesus can not cover it. If Adolph Hitler called upon the name of the Lord in his final hour, is God not able to save him? Jeffrey Dahmer called on the Lord before he died Is he in Heaven? Is God able to forgive TV evangelists who lie, steal & fornicate? What prevents the blood of the lamb from covering pompous church leaders and seminary graduates whatever their church affiliation?
The "BTK" serial killer happens to be Lutheran. (This in no way denigrates the rest of the Lutherans.) According to Martin Luther all are saved by grace, even serial killers. He got that from reading the Bible. So I will assert that one's membership in a political party, economic class, race, criminal record, educational level, or even a religious membership roll does not preclude their salvation by the atoning sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
K.J. said:Matthew C Jones said:
The word "catholic" with a small "c" means universal. The vast majority of Christianity embraces this concept.
I am not convinced that is the case. On what statistics do you base such a supposition? Even if the majority does hold that opinion, does that require the minority to accept their view...and be herded under that umbrella? Furthermore, it is the attempt to promote that theory that derailed the OP's original intent.
You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice
NASU
Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna was martyred about 167 AD. A letter from the church at Smyrna was circulated to Christians in other places.
διὰ τῆς ὑπομονῆς καταγωνισάμενος τὸν ἄδικον ἄρχοντα καὶ οὕτως τὸν τῆς ἀφθαρσίας στέφανον ἀπολαβών· σὺν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις καὶ πᾶσιν δικαίοις ἀγαλλιώμενος δοξάζει τὸν θεὸν καὶ πατέρα παντοκράτορα καὶ εὐλογεῖ τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν σωτῆρα τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν καὶ κυβερνήτην τῶν σωμάτων ἡμῶν καὶ ποιμένα τῆς κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην καθολικῆς ἐκκλησίας.
By his endurance he defeated the unrighteous magistrate and so received the crown of immortality; now he rejoices with the apostles and all the righteous, and glorifies the almighty God and Father, and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls and Helmsman of our bodies and Shepherd of the catholic church throughout the world.Holmes, Michael William. The Apostolic Fathers : Greek Texts and English Translations, MPoly 19.2. Updated ed. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1999.
Before Polycarp was martyred Ignatius, the bishop of Antioch was condemned to be thrown to the wild beasts in Rome. On the journey to Rome he was able to meet with some of the bishops of the churches in Asia and then wrote to them.
ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἔστω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ᾖ Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία. οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλʼ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε.
Wherever ever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid.Op cit, ISmyr, 8.2.
One more quotation: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0
