Unusual problem (bug?) with a complex BIBLE search

Hi all,

I ran a search with a number <LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.6> and a proper noun (Peter) ... but got false results 3 x. I ran it first as a L-N search under BIBLE for ESV. There were many hits. Some of them contained a ref. to Peter so I decided to search for verses where there were both - the L-N number AND Peter.

First: <L-N #> Peter This would be like an AND operator? I ran it once with the AND but was missing one or two hits.

Next: <L-N #> NEAR Peter

Next: (<L-N #> BEFORE Peter) (<L-N #> AFTER Peter) This last one (if I am remembering it correctly) was the best.

But why did the other searches return fewer results?After searching the WIKI, I am stumped. I must be doing something wrong. But ... I can't figure it.

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Comments

Kevin Becker

Could you post a screenshot or cut and paste your exact search syntax? I tried to duplicate this but I only got Acts 10:14 in my search results. Could you have mistyped the LN number?

Ron Corbett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227850#Comment_227850

Could you post a screenshot or cut and paste your exact search syntax? I tried to duplicate this but I only got Acts 10:14 in my search results. Could you have mistyped the LN number?

Hi Kevin,

Here is the final version:

(<LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.5> AFTER Peter) OR (<LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.5> BEFORE Peter)

Nothing else worked ??? though I would have thought that a simple AND operator would have done the job.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227858#Comment_227858

(<LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.5> AFTER Peter) OR (<LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.5> BEFORE Peter)

Nothing else worked ??? though I would have thought that a simple AND operator would have done the job.

Wouldn't AND require that it be both before and after? I would expect WITHIN to work, however.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227858#Comment_227858

Ron,

Thanks for the syntax. Your original post had 69.6 as the LN number, no wonder I was getting different results.

Ok, here's my attempt with your search string.

I decided to run both components individually

Finally I just ran the AND syntax and it gave me the same results.

It seems like the AND search is working just fine for me.

However, I decided to do a morph search on the NA27

John 18:11 is an added hit... I discovered this was under LN 69:13; I would have to do some further looking to see what the differences are between the uses of ου μη. However, as a rule if I'm looking for a single word a RI is fine but more complex searches are best on the NA27.

EDIT: If your searches don't look like mine it's quite possible you have a Bible index problem and might need to rebuild your Bible index.

Ron Corbett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227924#Comment_227924

Thanks Kevin,

(And I did mistype the reference that first time.)

Your results are like mine. I knew I was missing something so I kept changing the command operators.

My question is: why wouldn't NEAR work? why not 4 verses with all of the searches (AND,NEAR) ? The NEAR search should have had 4, but didn't. Why w/ NA27 and not w/ ESV? And why then does the longer string work? I get 4 verses with the OR.

If we got 4 verses with one of the searches why not with those others?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227948#Comment_227948

If we got 4 verses with one of the searches why not with those others?

Because one of the verses is tagged with LN 69.13 (strongly emphatic affirmative response) and we were searching for LN 69.5 (a marker of emphatic negation). οὐ μή can mean either, depending on context.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227949#Comment_227949

If we got 4 verses with one of the searches why not with those others?

Because one of the verses is tagged with LN 69.13 (strongly emphatic affirmative response) and we were searching for LN 69.5 (a marker of emphatic negation). οὐ μή can mean either, depending on context.

Also, NEAR (if memory serves) is the same as WITHIN 8 WORD

John 13:8 the terms are 6 words apart

Mt 26:35 the terms are 13 words apart <LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.5> WITHIN 13 WORD Peter produces it

Mt 16:22 the terms are 18 words apart <LouwNida = Louw Nida 69.5> WITHIN 18 WORD Peter produces it

Thus NEAR will only pick up the first of these references. The 4th hit is excluded from all searches because, as Mark said above, is tagged with a different Louw-Nida number. If you don't want the contextual differentiation use a morph search and look for the actual Greek phrase.

Ron Corbett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227949#Comment_227949

If we got 4 verses with one of the searches why not with those others?

Because one of the verses is tagged with LN 69.13 (strongly emphatic affirmative response) and we were searching for LN 69.5 (a marker of emphatic negation). οὐ μή can mean either, depending on context.

Hi Mark,

I am not getting Jn 18:11.

My 4 searches (when I get 4) are: Mt 16:22, Mt 26:35, Mk 14:31 and John 13:8

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227950#Comment_227950

Also, NEAR (if memory serves) is the same as WITHIN 8 WORD

NEAR is equivalent to WITHIN 48 CHARS.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227952#Comment_227952

Mark 14:31 does not have the word Peter in it. How do you get that hit?

John 18:11 is the verse where ου μη is LN 69.13 the other instances of ου μη are LN 69.5

Ron Corbett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227953#Comment_227953

Hmm. L-N 69:13 is a "marker of strongly emphatic affirmative response" as in Jn 18:11. But in Rom 4:8 , it is not affirming, but strongly negating. No? And in Rom 4:8 it is combined with L-N 69:5 an emphatic negation.

Question: When we have a combination of words (like ou me), why are they aways listed seperately in the right-click menu? Are there not times when they should (also) be listed together?

Ron Corbett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227955#Comment_227955

Mark 14:31 does not have the word Peter in it. How do you get that hit?

Ah, Pardone moi, I also ran the search in the NAS which mentions Peter by name in Mk 14:31. I was usually running it in ESV which iswhy that stuck in my head.

Thanks Kevin

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227957#Comment_227957

Hmm. L-N 69:13 is a "marker of strongly emphatic affirmative response" as in Jn 18:11. But in Rom 4:8 , it is not affirming, but strongly negating. No? And in Rom 4:8 it is combined with L-N 69:5 an emphatic negation.

Yes, there's an inconsistency in the tagging there (both domains are given). I think that should be reported as a typo.

Question: When we have a combination of words (like ou me), why are they aways listed seperately in the right-click menu? Are there not times when they should (also) be listed together?

It would be too subjective, I fear. Better to have a strict 'one word' rule.