[OT] Some thoughts on NIV 2011
This is a bit off topic, but some might be interested in this news report on the new NIV 2011:
Blessings,
Floyd
Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
Comments
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i am not favorable about the gender neutral versions of the NIV. But i was really shocked by the change in which Words Of Christ were changed between the 1984 vs the 2011 versions. i know WOC vary some between several different translation, but was surprised that the 2011 did not consider John 3:16 to be WOC.
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Whether Jesus made this statement or whether its John's commentary has been a source of scholarly debate for some time.
Contributing to the debate is the fact that Greek has no quotation marks, and the context doesn't make clear who exactly is speaking--Jesus or the narrator.
You've brought to light an interesting change of mind by the NIV 2011 committee!
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steve clark said:
But i was really shocked by the change in which Words Of Christ were changed between the 1984 vs the 2011 versions.
This is why I don't own a "red letter" Bible and hope to keep my streak going.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:steve clark said:
But i was really shocked by the change in which Words Of Christ were changed between the 1984 vs the 2011 versions.
This is why I don't own a "red letter" Bible and hope to keep my streak going.
I avoid them - though I cannot say I do not own any. Thank you for the comment.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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i find this type of discussion interesting, but in the end, it does not change the content of the words very much. But for the record, I like red-letter Bibles, even if certain passages are a bit ambiguous as to the original speaker of them. But whenever I want an authoritative delineation of the actual words of Jesus, I go to my trusted source: John Dominic Crossan.
[A]
okay, back to serious study.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
But whenever I want an authoritative delineation of the actual words of Jesus, I go to my trusted source: John Dominic Crossan.
I've often wondered if the Jesus Seminar ran out of black marbles ... I envision them taking a break in the proceedings to send a graduate student lackey out for more gray and black marbles. It would have been a crisis equal to running out of Peets Coffee in Berkeley.[8-|]
If my post confuses you, browze http://www.westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Excerpts/voting5g.html
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I just wanted to ask.....
If it was truly Christ's words....would it not be in Aramaic?
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FYI...the red letters are not my concern. Just as someone above noted, it shows a change in committee interpretation. Just something else that i ponder on. i use several different translations in my normal study. This new one is not in my list and leave others to determine what they want to use.
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William Bingham said:
I just wanted to ask.....
If it was truly Christ's words....would it not be in Aramaic?
There is some evidence that Jesus spoke Greek. For example, it is highly unlikely that the Roman centurion spoke Aramaic so either Jesus had an interpreter or he could speak Greek. This would hardly be surprising for an educated rabbi of that day. This is the 12 year old who shocked the scholars with his learning after all
. There are at least a couple of journal articles written on this subject by Stanley Porter, among others.Tom
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It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ... what would be more interesting to me is what languages the apostles were fluent in.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ... what would be more interesting to me is what languages the apostles were fluent in.
Before or after Pentecost? Often they are called ignorant fisherman - but after a three year class with the Master? And the Holy Spirit's work?
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David Ames said:
Before or after Pentecost? Often they are called ignorant fisherman - but after a three year class with the Master? And the Holy Spirit's work?
The fishermen from the Galilee region probably had business dealings with Greek-speakers. I would be shocked if at a minimum they did not speak some kind of Pidgin Greek. However, I suspect that they spoke decent Koine and the ignorant fishermen line come from other perceived knowledge gaps.
Prov. 15:23
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MJ. Smith said:
It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ...
I'm pretty sure he is! I even hear him speaking German every now and then (mostly during Bible reading and prayer time)! [;)]
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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MJ. Smith said:
It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ... what would be more interesting to me is what languages the apostles were fluent in.
I believe it is safe to say that they spoke Greek and Aramaic.
There are a large number of Greek and bilingual (Aramaic) inscriptions found in Palestine. Josephus also said (Ant. 20.263), that knowledge of Greek was more common among lower-class people. Aramaic, however, was still the native language of the people.
You can also add Hebrew.
Judaism and Hellenism in Judea
It’s tempting to draw a sharp line between the Diaspora Jews and the more conservative, traditional Jews of Judea, but as already noted, that would not be entirely accurate. To begin with, Judean Jews used Hebrew only in the synagogues (2.94). In everyday life Aramaic, a related Semitic tongue, had long since become the spoken language of the land. When the New Testament says “Hebrew,” it really means Aramaic (John 19:20; Acts 21:40). It was even necessary to publish Targums, Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Scriptures (2.85; 2.101), a process well attested by the first century B.C.
Albert A. Bell, Exploring the New Testament World (Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers, 1998). 26.
David Ames said:Often they are called ignorant fisherman
The word ignorant is not actuate. Not only did they have to know their trade, they ran a business that had employees (Mark 1:20). To do this, they could not have been "ignorant fishermen."
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Theolobias said:MJ. Smith said:
It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ...
I'm pretty sure he is! I even hear him speaking German every now and then (mostly during Bible reading and prayer time)!
Theolobias wins the most bonus points for theological accuracy IMHO. :-)
Thanks for that, I know you weren't writing that for a laugh, but it brought me joy this morning to recall that my savior who speaks to me speaks to so many in languages and dialects around the globe.
We serve an awesome God.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Me, too, MJ.MJ. Smith said:This is why I don't own a "red letter" Bible and hope to keep my streak going.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Thomas Black said:
it brought me joy this morning to recall that my savior who speaks to me speaks to so many in languages and dialects around the globe.
I teach in a missionary school with students from different countries. I am constantly aware that the bride of Christ will consist of all languages and cultures. Its is a joy to experience the freedom lets say an African will exude in worship. (It is equally sobering to become aware of various types of persecution.)
I have wondered before if Jesus was reading Isaiah in Greek or Hebrew, when He was rejected at Nazareth.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
Wiki Table of Contents0 -
Thanks for the reference to the interesting article. I have not studied the NIV 2011, and could not intelligently comment.
But I do know what I will look at in making a judgment. Since a masculine plural can refer to both male and female, I have no trouble it being translated that way, assuming it fits the context. It would probably be the more accurate translation.
However, making gender changes that are more theologically driven is not valid. For example, neuter language in refering to God is not valid translation, in my opinion.
Again, I haven't had time to judge what the NIV 2011 has done, but that is how I personally will evaluate it.
I am still perfectly content with the old NIV. It is really my Bible of choice for preaching. If the old NIV was good enough for St. Paul, it's good enough for me.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael ... I couldn't resist (and know you're joking on NIV/Paul). But Paul clearly enjoyed the LXX. The oddity, at least so far, is trying to figure out which version he preferred, since so far, we haven't found it.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thomas Black said:
Theolobias wins the most bonus points for theological accuracy IMHO. :-)
Woohoo!
Thomas Black said:We serve an awesome God.
Amen to that!
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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Thanks for the article post. It was helpful.
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MJ. Smith said:
I've often wondered if the Jesus Seminar ran out of black marbles ... I envision them taking a break in the proceedings to send a graduate student lackey out for more gray and black marbles. It would have been a crisis equal to running out of Peets Coffee in Berkeley.
If my post confuses you, browze http://www.westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Excerpts/voting5g.html
WOW, they had to vote in secret!!!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Theolobias said:MJ. Smith said:
It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ...
I'm pretty sure he is! I even hear him speaking German every now and then (mostly during Bible reading and prayer time)!
Na, so wat Irre!!!! Wirklich???!!!! [:O] [H]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MJ. Smith said:steve clark said:
But i was really shocked by the change in which Words Of Christ were changed between the 1984 vs the 2011 versions.
This is why I don't own a "red letter" Bible and hope to keep my streak going.
You'd like Sweden then. To the best of my knowledge there are no Swedish red letter Bibles. At least I've never seen one.
However, not owning a red letter Bible is hardly going to preserve you from shock due to changes in Words of Christ, since I'm pretty sure even your Bibles have quotation marks. Red switched to black may be far easier to spot than a quotation mark that's been moved a couple of sentences, but the exegetical and theological implications are the same. In fact, the NAB seems to end that quote after v 15, while the NRSVCE lets it go on until v 21. Red letters or not, that's a difference.
Tom Reynolds said:There is some evidence that Jesus spoke Greek.
Tom Reynolds said:it is highly unlikely that the Roman centurion spoke Aramaic
David Ames said:Often they are called ignorant fisherman
I think we 'modern' people who learn languages at school tend to vastly underestimate the language skills of 'uneducated' people in multilingual parts of the world. Sweden has taken in tens of thousands of Assyrians from eastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Many of them have been totally illiterate and had no formal education whatsoever. That didn't stop them from speaking 3-4-5 languages more or less fluently: Assyrian among themselves; Kurdish, Armenian and/or Turkish with other villagers; Turkish or Arabic with authorities. In fact, in many parts of the world it's taken for granted that uneducated people know more languages than educated people do. The educated classes look down on local languages and bring their children up in English or French or something, while their maids and workers will, by necessity, speak at least two languages.
Israel has always been at the crossroads, with both trade and armies going back and forth in all directions. It seems rather unlikely that any man could grow up monolingual in a place like that, unless he lives isolated in an upper class home, which Jesus did not. Also, remember the family lived in Egypt for a while.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Dan DeVilder said:
Na, so wat Irre!!!! Wirklich???!!!!
Isn't it!?!
By the way, that was a funny mix of Dutch (or maybe German "Platt") and German! To be correct German, it would have to be something like "Na, so was Irres!"
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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I found a few interesting discussions on this topic in these resources.tom collinge said:MJ. Smith said:It would be most surprising to me if Jesus was not multilingual ... what would be more interesting to me is what languages the apostles were fluent in.
I believe it is safe to say that they spoke Greek and Aramaic.
Porter, Stanley E. Vol. 191, The Criteria for Authenticity in Historical-Jesus Research : Previous Discussion and New Proposals. Journal for the Study of the New Testament. London; New York: T&T Clark, 2004.
If you have this book, click here... & here...
&
Turner, Nigel. Grammatical Insights into the New Testament. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1966.
If you have this book, click here...
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Michael Childs said:
I am still perfectly content with the old NIV. It is really my Bible of choice for preaching.
Be glad that you have it in Logos.
The NIV 1984 and the TNIV will not be reprinted when current stock is exhausted.
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Edwin Bowden said:
The NIV 1984 and the TNIV will not be reprinted when current stock is exhausted.
A news item stated that some church might vote to reject the NIV 2011. Would the presses restart for an order for 10,000 copies?
Would the presses restart if church after church switch's to the ESV? [the TNIV did not sell as expected - lets watch - life can be interesting]
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fgh said:
tend to vastly underestimate the language skills of 'uneducated' people in multilingual parts of the world.
I can't resist. [6] In grad school a paper we were required to read noted that economics was an element of defining a language - Danes could understand Swedes but Swedes couldn't understand Danes (circa 1970).[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Danes could understand Swedes but Swedes couldn't understand Danes (circa 1970).
Nothing changed the last 40 years. Same thing with Norwegians. Danes can understand them, but Norwegians have no clue what Danes are talking about. Actually, Norwegians are referring to the Danish language as being Norwegian spoken with a hot potatoe in one's mouth. [:D]
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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MJ. Smith said:
Danes could understand Swedes but Swedes couldn't understand Danes
Danish is no problem -- as long as it's written down! (As you should know, considering that I researched Danish lectionaries for you some months back.) It's not that I can't understand it; I just simply can't hear what sounds they're [supposed to be] making. Well, Copenhagen dialect isn't too bad, but down towards the German border... On the other hand, Swedish from the southernmost part can be pretty bad as well (it used to belong to Denmark, after all), and a couple of really ancient Swedish dialects are far worse than Danish, so it's not really a nationality thing. And Southern Swedes do tend to understand Danish pretty well.
Theolobias said:Nothing changed the last 40 years.
Yes, I think it has. In the South. There is a bridge there now, after all. Lots of Danes have moved to Sweden (where the houses are cheaper), and lots of Swedes have found jobs in Copenhagen (where the job market is much better, and possibly salaries as well). So it's bound to have changed.
Theolobias said:Norwegians are referring to the Danish language as being Norwegian spoken with a hot potatoe in one's mouth.
I tend to claim that they talk like they've got their mouths full of porridge.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
Danish is no problem -- as long as it's written down!
You're right about that - I speak and read Norwegian (bokmål, though nynorsk isn't really a problem either) fluently, and it's always the same story: I really enjoy reading Danish on any level from novels to academic writings without any problems, since there are very few differences, as you know. But as soon as I'm on vacation in Denmark, I get the feeling that they are kidding me ... [:D]
fgh said:I tend to claim that they talk like they've got their mouths full of porridge.
You know, it's no long way from a hot potatoe to porridge ... [;)]
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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fgh said:MJ. Smith said:
Danes could understand Swedes but Swedes couldn't understand Danes
Danish is no problem -- as long as it's written down! (As you should know, considering that I researched Danish lectionaries for you some months back.) It's not that I can't understand it; I just simply can't hear what sounds they're [supposed to be] making. Well, Copenhagen dialect isn't too bad, but down towards the German border... On the other hand, Swedish from the southernmost part can be pretty bad as well (it used to belong to Denmark, after all), and a couple of really ancient Swedish dialects are far worse than Danish, so it's not really a nationality thing. And Southern Swedes do tend to understand Danish pretty well.
Theolobias said:Nothing changed the last 40 years.
Yes, I think it has. In the South. There is a bridge there now, after all. Lots of Danes have moved to Sweden (where the houses are cheaper), and lots of Swedes have found jobs in Copenhagen (where the job market is much better, and possibly salaries as well). So it's bound to have changed.
Theolobias said:Norwegians are referring to the Danish language as being Norwegian spoken with a hot potatoe in one's mouth.
I tend to claim that they talk like they've got their mouths full of porridge.
well, would you look at that--I leave the thread for a while and it gets taken over by the Vikings. Are the Huns next?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:
Are the Huns next?
Hey, I started this thread and I AM NOT LETTING MY WIFE IN HERE!!! Keep the Huns out!
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Floyd Johnson said:Dan DeVilder said:
Are the Huns next?
Hey, I started this thread and I AM NOT LETTING MY WIFE IN HERE!!! Keep the Huns out!
lol.
hmmm. Attila gives new meaning to the "Hun-ny do list". Look out, Rome!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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