My son is entering the Seminary and I wonder if there is some way for me to share my library with him?
For example, if I purchased him a basic Logos account, would I be able to share my Logos books with him?
My son is entering the Seminary and I wonder if there is some way for me to share my library with him? For example, if I purchased him a basic Logos account, would I be able to share my Logos books with him?
You can't share books between two accounts, and Logos is licenced per-user anyway, so the answer really is 'no'. Logos do generously allow family members to use another family member's copy of Logos on an occasional basis, if they are part of the same household, even though strictly speaking the licence terms do not permit this. But that wouldn't describe the situation you have.
The good news is that Logos offer significant discounts (around 35%) for students at seminary, so that may allow him or you to purchase more than you otherwise could.
For your situation, I believe Mark has given you the correct answer. You can find additional information here: 3265.aspx This is from Bob Pritchett, the CEO. It does not get any more official than this.
Can we report those who abuse the license? I sure don't mind telling logos of a so called "friend" who has the software installed in his computer and let his sons (3 of them who work on 3 different churches) use the software. The worst part is the so called "ministers" boast of having paid so much money to upgrade so each can have it on their iPhone and stuff.
I would not hesitate for a moment reporting them if Logos gave me the OK. The worst part is that they told me and my brother that we were dumb paying twice for the software. I told him not dumb because I decided to upgrade to Platinum and add other Spanish libraries while my brother decided to stay with his scholars package.
It really ticks me off to see them preach using "sophisticated words" that they get out of the software when they're not good role models by doing what they are doing. Their churches may not know about it, but I DO. So please Logos, let me report them, I can give you their names right now!
Sorry, but I hate to see people thinking they're too smart to avoid getting caught when they should know better that God is watching!
GB
Can we report those who abuse the license
I don't think Logos has ever asked us or expected us to do that. I don't think they'd be inclined to prosecute if you did report such abuse. From what I've seen, they are pretty merciful in enforcement, preferring to leave it up to individual conscience. Your best recourse is to go to your brother and tell him you feel he's violating Logos's End User Licensing Agreement (you can direct him to it here) and that it's a matter of principle, supporting a company that he depends on to stay in business, setting a good example for his sons, etc.
Your "friend" isn't sinning against you, he's sinning against Logos, so beyond that I wouldn't worry about it too much. Look out that the desire to feel justified in your own eyes and holier than the other is not your motivation for wanting to report someone. Remember let him who is without sin cast the first stone, and we should deal with the logs in our own eyes before pointing out the specks in others' eyes.
If you feel the need to get Logos's approval before reporting this abuse, then perhaps you have your own doubts about sending in such an email and you already have your answer. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just do it and let Logos ignore it if they don't want to pursue these folks for more money?
As others have said, the EULA would prohibit sharing resources as you suggest. However . . .
My son is also in seminary and was able to get a huge discount because Logos is required at his seminary. Even if it's not required, there is still a substantial discount for students. Be sure to ask, or have your son ask about the academic pricing policy. In my son's case, it was best to wait until he started sem., as that's when the biggest discount was able to be applied.
Can we report those who abuse the license?
I suspect you would be better off praying for him. As you say, "God is watching."
Thanks to all for the helpful replies. [;)]
Just to clarify, I have no intention of anything dishonest. That's why I asked.
Specifically I was wondering whether my son and I could share a few books that I have in my library if he owned his own copy of Logos and did not have the particular book he wanted to reference. Over the years, I have added many single copies to my library that are not part of any of the package deals.
We have every intention of purchasing him his own Logos copy.
I pray that no one has been offended by my innocent question and that by asking it I have not opened a door for Satan to work his mischief. [6]
Thanks again and God's blessings to all,
Steve
We recognize that Stephen. I hope you did not feel we were judging you.
The emotional response Giovanni expressed was towards others who know better. (Many don't know this but Logos could document misuse of the licenses with current technology.) It isn't easy but I am learning to leave it to God.
I pray that no one has been offended by my innocent question and that by asking it I have not opened a door for Satan to work his mischief.
It is good sometimes to revisit the issue so long as it doesn't turn into a debate about intellectual property rights. ( [6] Now I've one and done it!)
I just want to make one comment about others that aren't living the life.
Is there some amoung us that no longer sin? May be one person has one sin in their life that really bothers us, but we tend to forget that we have our own sins that we need to deal with as we learn to walk by faith giving thanks for God forgiving our sins because of His great grace, not because we are walking the walk, and being good role models because we all fail at doing that daily!
Being a good role model doesn't mean we no longer sin, but rather we are leaning to walk by faith and learning to accept our need for His grace each and every day, to the glory of His Grace!
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
I just want to make one comment about others that aren't living the life. Is there some amoung us that no longer sin? May be one person has one sin in their life that really bothers us, but we tend to forget that we have our own sins that we need to deal with as we learn to walk by faith giving thanks for God forgiving our sins because of His great grace, not because we are walking the walk, and being good role models because we all fail at doing that daily! Being a good role model doesn't mean we no longer sin, but rather we are leaning to walk by faith and learning to accept our need for His grace each and every day, to the glory of His Grace! In Christ, Jim VanSchoonhoven
AMEN!!
Thank you, JIm
Some time ago Bob Pritchett shared a beautiful story. He got an email from someone saying that this person used to pirate our software, was convicted, bought it, and now emailed the CEO asking for his forgiveness! Talk about repentance.
I just wanted to say good answer Rosie but I would like to point out that first and foremost they sinning against God first and then LOGOS.
Specifically I was wondering whether my son and I could share a few books that I have in my library if he owned his own copy of Logos and did not have the particular book he wanted to reference. Over the years, I have added many single copies to my library that are not part of any of the package deals.We have every intention of purchasing him his own Logos copy.
As I understand it, this would be technically impossible, since the books are registered in a database under your individual licence. This is what allows you to utilize your books on various technical platforms that all connect to this same Logos licence database. And even if your PC crashes, if you buy a new one, install the Logos software on it and connect it to the Logos server, it will recognize all the books in your library as the licences are stored in Logos' database as belonging to you (this is what I have read here about the theoretical technology - try on your own risk and don't take a Newbie's words on it! :-) Thus somebody can only share someone else's library by impersonating as this individual, not on basis of an own Logos copy. So my understanding, but the more experienced users may correct me if I'm wrong.
On the other hand, I seem to remember reading in the forums about licence transfers - so if for example you acquired some pretty decent resources on e.g. church history that you discover you don't even read anymore, and your son is telling you about an upcoming assignment where he could make use of them, I understand that Logos service could transfer the licence from your database entries to his. Then you couldn't access them any longer, but the Logos software on his PC would recognize a new licence and download & install the books on his machine. Logos's customer service may charge something for the service to edit their licence database on your behalf. Actually this is more like handing him a book from your library as a present (rather than "sharing" it) but it may help you both.
Logos's customer service may charge something for the service to edit their licence database on your behalf.
It's twenty dollars per transaction whether it's a single title or a large collection, it's to cover the overhead cost to transfer licenses.
If you bought an individual copy of a resource, and then got the same resource in a package, you maybe able to give the individual one to your son. Check with Logos and see what they say.
This would be possible unless your price of a package was discounted. Logos can charge a fee for transferring licenses (It has historically been waived, $20, or 10%).
Right on Jim... Now that is the Gospel
Praise to Him
Thanks to all for the helpful replies. Just to clarify, I have no intention of anything dishonest. That's why I asked. Specifically I was wondering whether my son and I could share a few books that I have in my library if he owned his own copy of Logos and did not have the particular book he wanted to reference. Over the years, I have added many single copies to my library that are not part of any of the package deals. We have every intention of purchasing him his own Logos copy. I pray that no one has been offended by my innocent question and that by asking it I have not opened a door for Satan to work his mischief. Thanks again and God's blessings to all, Steve
Thanks to all for the helpful replies.
In addition to the suggestions already given of your son using the academic discount, you might consider giving him the gift of a resource or two from time to time. If there is some large and expensive resource such as AYBD, I doubt that Bob and Logos would much object if your son were to use your copy on your own computer when he comes home.
Quite true.
I did that this week. I have some resources I am not allowed to transfer to others because I was given credit for them towards a cheaper price on upgrading. I had other resources that were truly duplicate licenses that I paid for twice so I was allowed to transfer the duplicates that were not considered toward a discounted upgrade. A resource can not be separated from a collection it was sold with.
I am still trying to figure out how I purchased 2 licenses of the Essential IVP Reference Library considering it is a boxed product.. Even worse, I actually installed the second license too. [:S] I knew I had the books but installed it without thinking. At least I only paid one fee to transfer several licenses in a single transaction.
Can we report those who abuse the license I don't think Logos has ever asked us or expected us to do that. I don't think they'd be inclined to prosecute if you did report such abuse [Then why have EULA if you're not going to enforce it?]. From what I've seen, they are pretty merciful in enforcement, preferring to leave it up to individual conscience. Your best recourse is to go to your brother and tell him you feel he's violating Logos's End User Licensing Agreement (you can direct him to it here) and that it's a matter of principle, supporting a company that he depends on to stay in business, setting a good example for his sons, etc. [I've told them and they said they've paid big money for it. That's their excuse and when I tell them is wrong they give me a cynical smirk]. Your "friend" isn't sinning against you [if he's setting a bad example he's sinning against me and others Luke 17:1ff.], he's sinning against Logos, so beyond that I wouldn't worry about it too much [True, in a sense]. Look out that the desire to feel justified in your own eyes and holier than the other is not your motivation for wanting to report someone [No, that's certainly not my motivation - I'd probably done it a long time ago if that was my motivation]. Remember let him who is without sin cast the first stone [I'm not going to get into a theological debate, but this phrase needs to be kept in its original context. We cannot use it as a general axiom to mute a legitimate rebuke of evil.], and we should deal with the logs in our own eyes before pointing out the specks in others' eyes [Another phrase taken out of context but I'm not going to argue about it]. If you feel the need to get Logos's approval before reporting this abuse, then perhaps you have your own doubts about sending in such an email and you already have your answer [No doubts really, I've already anonymously reported them since I have the choice of doing it anonymously]. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just do it [I've taken care of that already. I've even reported websites that offered the full functioning version of Libronix.] and let Logos ignore it if they don't want to pursue these folks for more money?
I don't think Logos has ever asked us or expected us to do that. I don't think they'd be inclined to prosecute if you did report such abuse [Then why have EULA if you're not going to enforce it?].
From what I've seen, they are pretty merciful in enforcement, preferring to leave it up to individual conscience. Your best recourse is to go to your brother and tell him you feel he's violating Logos's End User Licensing Agreement (you can direct him to it here) and that it's a matter of principle, supporting a company that he depends on to stay in business, setting a good example for his sons, etc. [I've told them and they said they've paid big money for it. That's their excuse and when I tell them is wrong they give me a cynical smirk].
Your "friend" isn't sinning against you [if he's setting a bad example he's sinning against me and others Luke 17:1ff.], he's sinning against Logos, so beyond that I wouldn't worry about it too much [True, in a sense]. Look out that the desire to feel justified in your own eyes and holier than the other is not your motivation for wanting to report someone [No, that's certainly not my motivation - I'd probably done it a long time ago if that was my motivation]. Remember let him who is without sin cast the first stone [I'm not going to get into a theological debate, but this phrase needs to be kept in its original context. We cannot use it as a general axiom to mute a legitimate rebuke of evil.], and we should deal with the logs in our own eyes before pointing out the specks in others' eyes [Another phrase taken out of context but I'm not going to argue about it].
If you feel the need to get Logos's approval before reporting this abuse, then perhaps you have your own doubts about sending in such an email and you already have your answer [No doubts really, I've already anonymously reported them since I have the choice of doing it anonymously]. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just do it [I've taken care of that already. I've even reported websites that offered the full functioning version of Libronix.] and let Logos ignore it if they don't want to pursue these folks for more money?
Here's a great article that keeps "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" in it's true context. I'm just sharing, you may want to read it or you may just choose to ignore it, up to you. Author has been kept anonymous.
--- Over the past several months, as controversy has swirled around the president’s conduct, with almost predictable regularity media personalities have cited what is possibly the only passage in their biblical repository: “He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.”
This passage has been perverted in a number of egregious ways. First, as in the present example, it is employed to minimize adultery. “Oh, we all sin,” it is claimed. “In the instance of John 8:1-11, a woman committed adultery, but Jesus did not condemn her. We should not, therefore, make a ‘big deal’ over such a trifling and personal matter.” Others “paint” with an even broader brush. They allege that no one who is flawed himself by sin has the right to censure anyone for any transgression; after all, none of us is “without sin.” No one, therefore, possesses the moral authority to condemn. This episode in the Gospel of John even has been cited in an effort to set aside the clear biblical injunctions which demand the discipline of apostate Christians.
We believe, therefore, that a careful consideration of this context is warranted. The details of the New Testament narrative are as follows.
Early one morning Jesus came from the Mount of Olives, just east of Jerusalem, to the temple compound of the sacred city. Probably in the court of the Gentiles, the Lord sat down (the usual posture for a Jewish teacher) and began to teach the folks who had gathered. Suddenly, there was a rude interruption. The scribes (copiers of the law, thus religious “experts”) and the Pharisees (those of the strictest Jewish sect—Acts 26:5), broke into the assembly, bringing a captive woman. They probably dragged her into the midst of the group.
Having positioned her prominently, they, with malevolent designs, fired a question at Jesus: “Teacher [no doubt with a tone of sarcasm], this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. The law of Moses commands that she be stoned. What do you say regarding her?” Quietly, the Son of God stooped down, and, with his finger wrote a message in the dust. (This is the only context in the New Testament which mentions Jesus writing.) The biblical text does not reveal the substance of the message. But the Lord said nothing.
The inquisitors continued to press him for a verbal response. It was at this point that he made the statement to which so many frequently appeal: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.”
Before giving some analysis to the passage, let us first briefly comment upon the matter of the genuineness of the context. Virtually every translation of the English Bible, this side of the 1611 King James Version, at least footnotes the passage, calling attention to the weak manuscript evidence behind the section embraced by John 7:53-8:11. All of the best Greek manuscripts, including the two oldest papyri (P66 and P75—dating from about A.D. 200) omit it. Most scholars—including many conservative ones—doubt that this section was a part of John’s original Gospel. On the other hand, some very respectable names defend it. The famous critic F.H.A. Scrivener affirmed that “the arguments in its favor, internal even more than external, are so powerful, that we can scarcely be brought to think it an unauthorized appendage to the writings” of John (1883, 610). One of the best summaries of the controversy is found in R.C. Foster’s, Studies in the Life of Christ (1971, 796ff).
A.D.
In spite of the sparse manuscript evidence, there is a wide-spread conviction among textual critics (those who pursue the science of restoring the original text from available data) that this narrative represents a factual episode in the ministry of Jesus. Even Professor Bruce Metzger of Princeton University, a renowned textual scholar (and no conservative), concedes that “the account has all the earmarks of historical veracity” (1971, 220). There is much concurrence: “Throughout the history of the church it has been held that, whoever wrote [this section], this little story is authentic” (Morris 1971, 883). We are not, therefore, uncomfortable in accepting the record as actual history.
What are the basic facts of the case?
A sinful woman was somehow apprehended in the act of committing adultery, i.e., she was engaged in sexual activity that violated either her own marriage commitment, or that of her paramour. Adultery is a sexual act, and it involves the breach of the marriage covenant. There is virtually no controversy among language authorities regarding this matter, not to mention clear biblical testimony. “Let marriage be had in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge” (Hebrews 13:4). Note the connection between “bed” and “adulterers.” The rather modern—certainly novel—theory, which holds that adultery is only “covenant breaking,” whether or not sexual transgressions were involved, is utterly without merit, and is, in fact, a base attempt to sanctify adulterous relationships formed subsequent to unscriptural divorces.
It is more than obvious that the scribes and Pharisees were not the least interested in seeing true justice executed. Had they been in pursuit of justice, they would have taken the woman to the appropriate authorities for remedy. What did Jesus of Nazareth have to do with such legal affairs? Nothing at all. No, this was a trap laid for Christ. The Jews did not have the authority to execute law-breakers (see John 18:31). Rome retained for itself the right of life and death over its subjects. In A.D. 6 (the year that Judaea became a Roman province), Coponius, a governor, was sent to Palestine by Augustus Caesar. He was “granted supreme power over the Jews” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 18.1.1.), which included the power of life and death (Wars of the Jews 2.8.1). Though this fact has been disputed by liberal critics, the historical evidence sustains the biblical record (Green 1992, 850). A.N. Sherwin-White, Professor of Ancient History at Oxford, has addressed this matter most thoroughly in his work, Roman Society And Roman Law In The New Testament (1978, 35ff).
Accordingly, had Jesus pronounced judicial sentence upon the sinful woman, the Jewish leaders would have reported the matter to the Roman authorities, and their diabolical plan to rid themselves of the Lord would have been achieved.
The accusers committed a colossal tactical blunder. Their charge itself contained information sufficient to expose their hypocrisy. The scribes and Pharisees emphatically declared that the poor woman had been caught “in the very act.” That is significant.
I am reminded of the circumstance where two men were in a fight and one bit off a portion of the other’s ear. When the case came to trial, the attorney for the accused asked a witness: “Did you see Mr. Jones bite off Mr. Smith’s ear?” “No,” the witness responded. The lawyer might well have stopped at that point with: “No further questions.” But he just had to ask one question more. “How, then, do you know that Jones bit off Smith’s ear?” “I saw him spit it out!”
When the Jewish leaders decided to be so specific, “in the very act,” they acknowledged an important point: they knew the identity of the male participant! What is the significance of that? Well, it is this: the Old Testament code demanded that both the adulteress and the adulterer be subjected to the same penalty (see Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:22). Where, then, was the man? These sanctimonious prosecutors were themselves in stark violation of the law. Had Jesus been under a commission to render a civil judgment in this case (and he did not come to attend to such matters—see Luke 12:13-14), he could not have countenanced this “kangaroo” procedure. The thrust of Christ’s statement—“He that is without sin . . .”—was this: “None of you is in a position to stone this woman, for you have disregarded the very law you profess to honor. It is a travesty.”
Remember this: the Savior’s admonition in John 8 cannot be divorced from its immediate context and used as a general axiom, the design of which is to mute the legitimate rebuke of evil. Even some Bible scholars have missed this point. William Barclay, the famous Scottish writer, was far off the mark when he, in connection with this verse, declared: “It was a first principle of Jesus that only the man who himself is without fault has the right to express judgment on the fault of others” (1955, 7). That is a misappropriation of this text.
Whatever Christ wrote on the ground made a powerful impact upon his critics. Silently they slipped away into the shadows, progressing from the older to the younger. This effect usually is interpreted as an indication that the Lord’s written message impacted the more mature first, and then the younger. It is hard to focus upon another’s sin when your own is exposed. At any rate, Jesus’ response—whatever it was—was devastating. The Pharisees’ inconsistency had been laid bare.
The accusers abandoned their prey. They were no match for the Son of God (neither is any critic today). The Lord arose and spoke to the woman. (Had she been defiant? Was she weeping? We can only wonder.) Christ inquired: “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” The use of the expression “woman” might seem a tad sharp to the modern English mind, but the address conveys no such meaning in the original language (cf. John 2:4; 19:26). Christ then added: “Neither do I condemn you.”
The Greek word for “condemn” is a strong one, katakrino (the prefix kata strengthens the root form). It suggests handing down a judgment, passing sentence. The Lord was informing the woman that she was not judicially sentenced. As Bloomfield observed, Jesus was simply making “a declaration that, since his kingdom was not of this world, so he would not assume the office of a temporal magistracy” (1837, 376). He was not sanctioning adultery, nor minimizing the lady’s wickedness—quite the contrary. Christ was commenting upon the legal aspect of the situation. With the accusers gone, there was no case left! The witnesses were required to throw the first stones (Deuteronomy 17:7); without them the matter could proceed no further.
katakrino
kata
Even a cursory reading of the text reveals that the Lord did not condone the woman’s sin. In fact, he said: “Go on your way; and sin no more.” The verb (“sin”) is a present tense form in the imperative (command) mood. The idea conveyed is: “Stop this life of sin.” Or, as William F. Beck rendered it: “Go, from now on don’t sin anymore” (1963, 181). Christ unequivocally indicated that what the woman did was sin.
It is apparent that the common, cast-the-first-stone defense cannot be employed legitimately as a cloak for the protection of impenitent sin. Consider the following facts.
Paul taught that there is none righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10). That included himself. He sometimes found himself doing wrong (Romans 7:15). He had to fight to keep himself under the Lord’s control (1 Corinthians 9:26-27). He knew that so long as he remained in the flesh he would never achieve a permanent plateau of perfection (Philippians 3:12).
On the other hand, the apostle did not hesitate to “judge” a brother who was living in open, impenitent sin (1 Corinthians 5:3), and he rebuked those who tolerated such (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). Paul had learned the Master’s truth that while we are not to judge according to appearances, we are obligated to “judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). Paul thus withdrew his fellowship from blasphemers like Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:19-20), and again, exposed Hymanaeus and Philetus when they taught that the resurrection had occurred already (2 Timothy 2:17-18). Nor did he hesitate to openly mention that Demas fell in love with the world and forsook him (2 Timothy 4:10).
It is obvious, therefore, that one does not have to be “without sin” before he can call attention to the grievous error that wicked men practice on a sustained basis.
The misuse of John 8:1-11, as a covering for unrestrained sin, is a gross evil within itself.
Here's a great article that keeps "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" in it's true context. I'm just sharing, you may want to read it or you may just choose to ignore it, up to you. Author has been kept anonymous. --- Over the past several months, as controversy has swirled around the president’s conduct, with almost predictable regularity media personalities have cited what is possibly the only passage in their biblical repository: “He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.” This passage has been perverted in a number of egregious ways. First, as in the present example, it is employed to minimize adultery. “Oh, we all sin,” it is claimed. “In the instance of John 8:1-11, a woman committed adultery, but Jesus did not condemn her. We should not, therefore, make a ‘big deal’ over such a trifling and personal matter.” Others “paint” with an even broader brush. They allege that no one who is flawed himself by sin has the right to censure anyone for any transgression; after all, none of us is “without sin.” No one, therefore, possesses the moral authority to condemn. This episode in the Gospel of John even has been cited in an effort to set aside the clear biblical injunctions which demand the discipline of apostate Christians. We believe, therefore, that a careful consideration of this context is warranted. The details of the New Testament narrative are as follows. A Synopsis of the Incident Early one morning Jesus came from the Mount of Olives, just east of Jerusalem, to the temple compound of the sacred city. Probably in the court of the Gentiles, the Lord sat down (the usual posture for a Jewish teacher) and began to teach the folks who had gathered. Suddenly, there was a rude interruption. The scribes (copiers of the law, thus religious “experts”) and the Pharisees (those of the strictest Jewish sect—Acts 26:5), broke into the assembly, bringing a captive woman. They probably dragged her into the midst of the group. Having positioned her prominently, they, with malevolent designs, fired a question at Jesus: “Teacher [no doubt with a tone of sarcasm], this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. The law of Moses commands that she be stoned. What do you say regarding her?” Quietly, the Son of God stooped down, and, with his finger wrote a message in the dust. (This is the only context in the New Testament which mentions Jesus writing.) The biblical text does not reveal the substance of the message. But the Lord said nothing. The inquisitors continued to press him for a verbal response. It was at this point that he made the statement to which so many frequently appeal: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.”
While we are admonished periodically to avoid theological discussions, I cannot let this pass. The passage to which reference is made is not a part of the original Gospel according to John. It has been absent from some manuscripts and found in others in differing places (including in Luke). My personal opinion is that it most likely derives from the now lost Gospel of the Hebrews and was simply too delicious a passage to let it fade into obscurity. Who knows, but it might even go back to a real incident in the life of Jesus. I would, however, be careful in citing it.
Author has been kept anonymous.
Just curious, why?
Author has been kept anonymous. Just curious, why?
Indeed, why. The author did not attempt to conceal his identity. His name is Wayne Jackson, and the article can be found at
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/34-the-current-perversion-of-john-8-1-11
Don't you just love Google (and other search engines).
Thanks George, I'm aware that the passage is not in the oldest manuscripts, yet if it was a "legitimate passage" the article written by the Brother (not anonymous anymore) would be the correct interpretation. My take on it every time I'm asked concerning Jesus' "...cast the first stone" statement is "it's not in the original...etc." but many don't know that and even if they know it they still use it in the wrong way and that's when I go to plan B which is to explain what was written in the article to keep Jesus' statement in its actual context.
But like you said, no theological debates, so it's all cool on this side of the world.
Blessings & Good night!
Giovanni
Am I alone or has anyone else noticed the forum discussions get real interesting on Friday evening and run the whole weekend?
I really enjoy it. [:D]
[C]
Not only weekends Matthew... But even more so on weekends when all the beta addicts are clicking update now every minute is hopes that they can get their fix... lol [;)]
Am I alone or has anyone else noticed the forum discussions get real interesting on Friday evening and run the whole weekend? I really enjoy it.
I really enjoy it.
Not only weekends Matthew... But even more so on weekends when all the beta addicts are clicking update now every minute is hopes that they can get their fix... lol
Hey, some of us beta addicts can multi-task by participating in interesting discussions while clicking Update Now repeatedly. [H]
clicking update now every minute is hopes that they can get their fix... lol
I already have more addictions than I can handle
I can't get hooked on beta testing right now.
Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.
Pro 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:
Pro 20:19 He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
The Bible is clear and final.
Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter. Pro 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another: Pro 20:19 He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips. Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. The Bible is clear and final.
What is this? A troll? No wonder he uses the name "John Doe."
What is this?
I think it is a Bible based response to Giovanni wanting to blow the whistle on piracy..............
at least it makes more sense reading it that way.
(The reply was linked to my post confirming Lynden's comment of transferring duplicate licenses.)
I like to read these verses often. It reminds me it is all about reconciliation, not condemnation. [:D]
I think what is needed is a technical solution. I understand the licensing policy. I also understand the desire to loan books out to friends and family like we do in print - especially when so much money is invested in a library.
Logos should create a solution which would allow temporary license transfers for a set amount of time. The original owner would lose access to that resource while the book is on loan. Therefore only one person is using the resource at a time as they would with a book. Some publishers won't allow this, but many will.
The ability to loan digital books would add much more value to Logos. This restrictive policy is the reason why I still buy many books in print instead of Logos.
Many OLD threads have many good discussions on Pricing
So I thought that I would add to it here rather then start a new one
Highlights:
Books have to sell.
Publishers want to make the most
Lots of sales at a low price or some sales at a very high price are the possible strategies
Perceived HIGH value of HALOT / BDAG AYDB (and others for example large scholarly commentary sets)
Plus the added value of Logos format
PRICING of E books when we take into consideration that each reader needs their own copy (no sharing)
The idea from threads (not a quote): ‘I spent $2,000 for the E book version because the print version is selling $3,000 [great bargain]. But latter remembers that now I cannot share it with my three preacher sons / three sup pastors in my church. You mean to tell me that our family / church has to pay $8,000 for all four of us to use it?’ [[ YES!!!! ]]
Who buys sets in the say $3,000 range? A Church or School library, a senior pastor who plans to use it to train his sub pastors (and shares his goodies with his students) – I.E. units / people that plan to share the work. And an occasional isolated user (most likely a researcher who does not have access to a library that has a copy [and who may expect to get their money back when the research is sold?]).
If in the paper world you could not allow others to use it would they sell even one copy? [[Only the head librarian can look at this book – please place your request and she will give you a printed report when available - please allow two to three weeks lead time – 5 to 6 weeks lead times near finals – please do not request more than three (3) pages of output per request]]
The ongoing thought has been that a good E book price for a Logos resource after Logos has ‘done its thing’ is near what the paper copy sells for. But have we taken into account that paper copies can be shared while Logos E-books cannot be. (If you are the head pastor and your kids are in Grade / High School and they are only taking bible lessons (they are not writing them) they probably can – but once they go to Seminary they must have their own copy)
Is the paper copy price still a good E-book price when we take into account that we can share the paper copy but need to buy each (moderate to heavy) Logos user their own Logos copy?
If you were attached to a library that had 30 users – is this resource seen as being worth $3,000 or seen as being worth $100 per user? Is the perceived price, by the Buyer for the library, $3,000 or $100?
In this (made up) example it is costing us $2,000 per user in Logos whereas the paper would cost us only $750 per user (4 users at 3000 – see above)
Being able to LOAN a book would bring it into the price range of a paper copy (price per copy) – now it is way higher (price per user)
{HELP! how do I prevent double spacing in my post? [pasted from WORD] thanks!}
For this reply, clicked Quote to copy reply. Then clicked HTML button in forum editor, which showed many blank paragraph lines:
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:small;"> </span></p>
HTML tags <p> and </p> delimit a paragraph. Have learned to use Preview button so see HTML rendering; if looks good, then Post, otherwise click Compose to return to forum editor. Sometimes forum editor changes from paragraph to divisions <div> </div>, which shows lines flowing together (HTML edit change div to p and remove extra divisions).
Keep Smiling [:)]
\
I think what is needed is a technical solution.
We know it could be done on a technical level. I think we need an economic solution to proceed.
Let us pretend for a moment that you are a publisher of Christian books and hold copyrights to a few hundred reasonably well selling titles. (Remembering that you paid out advances to authors and promoted advertising campaigns to push your products before the intended audience you of course want to maximize your profits.) Now the industry leader in Bible study software approaches you about publishing your copyrighted works in their software program that reaches many of the same audience your printed works appeal to. This sounds like a dream come true until your accountant and attorney tell you the software company just added a library loan feature. Now you wonder what effect this will have on your bottom line. It could actually increase sales of your books due to better exposure. Or it could result in a 75% loss of paying customers who can now just borrow a copy from their friends.The arrangement would be profitable for the software publisher because borrowers would have to purchase their own license to the basic program to borrow from another user. But then Churches and Colleges would buy a Portfolio license and loan out copies to students and members who might have otherwise bought their own. The Bible software publisher could just tell themselves they are acting like Boaz and leaving some grain on the edge of the fields for the poor to harvest. But that leaves you, the copyright holder, wondering how you will promote your product and pay royalties to your authors. Unless everybody will work for free - farmers feeding the author's families, Mechanics servicing their cars, doctors attending their sicknesses.......) And the nightmare begins.Why would a publisher sign on?
\I think what is needed is a technical solution. We know it could be done on a technical level. I think we need an economic solution to proceed. Let us pretend for a moment that you are a publisher of Christian books and hold copyrights to a few hundred reasonably well selling titles. (Remembering that you paid out advances to authors and promoted advertising campaigns to push your products before the intended audience you of course want to maximize your profits.) Now the industry leader in Bible study software approaches you about publishing your copyrighted works in their software program that reaches many of the same audience your printed works appeal to. This sounds like a dream come true until your accountant and attorney tell you the software company just added a library loan feature. Now you wonder what effect this will have on your bottom line. It could actually increase sales of your books due to better exposure. Or it could result in a 75% loss of paying customers who can now just borrow a copy from their friends.The arrangement would be profitable for the software publisher because borrowers would have to purchase their own license to the basic program to borrow from another user. But then Churches and Colleges would buy a Portfolio license and loan out copies to students and members who might have otherwise bought their own. The Bible software publisher could just tell themselves they are acting like Boaz and leaving some grain on the edge of the fields for the poor to harvest. But that leaves you, the copyright holder, wondering how you will promote your product and pay royalties to your authors. Unless everybody will work for free - farmers feeding the author's families, Mechanics servicing their cars, doctors attending their sicknesses.......) And the nightmare begins.Why would a publisher sign on?
Just a wild thought. Perhaps a fee could be charged for the loan of a book equivalent to a percentage of the royalty paid to the copyright holder to be determined by the length of the loan or a minimum figure to be determined. At that point a hold would be placed on the purchaser's copy and a limited duration license issued to the one borrowing the resource. The royalty would naturally be paid to the copyright holder or, in the case of out of copyright resources, retained by Logos to defray expenses.
David,
Your perspective is well stated, and has much merit. I think there is great value in the print version because it allows for sharing. The pricing of a digital copy which allows only one person to use it is very limiting.
On the other hand, from the research side the electronic format is way more functional.
From the publishing side of it, I would assume that after you recover your initial costs. Digital printing seems like a more economical way to market.
The interesting thing is that Amazon, has now started a program on the Kindle that allows for book sharing with some publisher's works.
Just a wild thought. Perhaps a fee could be charged for the loan of a book equivalent to a percentage of the royalty paid to the copyright holder to be determined by the length of the loan or a minimum figure to be determined.
Now that is an economic solution. If their bread gets buttered (that is parsnips to our friends across the pond) publishers have little reason to resist.
I see no reason Logos could not stand in as the Loaner (renter?) of all resources now that Logos 4 syncs with the mother-ship.
(I don't like the way that last sentence sounds... sync-ing ships?? [:|] )
I did raise the issue directly with Logos last year, suggesting different models of licensing. I thought a subscription model would be profitable or a lifetime, non-transferable model for reduced cost. Some users want to OWN their resources.
I see no reason Logos could not stand in as the Loaner (renter?) of all resources now that Logos 4 syncs with the mother-ship
So long as it isn't the "Mother wheel."
Just wanting to be devil's advocate here a moment. First of all the closest thing I do to committing software/copy right violation is backing up all my DVDs to a hard drive and sharing my itunes music with my spouse. But that said there are many people who have little respect for the modern concept of copy right, indeed were it around in the time of Jesus I dare say we would likely have one Synoptic gospel and who knows if it would have even survived. While we are in very different times, I understand those who believe the "Word of God is not chained", and many believe they are being "wise as serpents". Indeed there are many who think that because they have not received a physical item or at least haven't given a physical item no real harm is done. People should be allowed to make money off of their hard work. When we violate copy right we are depriving people of a living. We may very much disagree with the percentage that goes to Logos and the publisher verses the Author but it is how the system works. And while I know we are under no compulsion morally to follow the law when it contradicts what God wants of us. The example of the group of clergy sharing one Logos account appears to me to be somewhat immoral. If they ensured they were never reading the same book at the same time, I feel they have followed the spirit of the law but I doubt they have. I will not label this sin or theft in a traditional sense, only illegal. Boasting about it seems most out of place. Sometimes the only thing we can really do is pray for people and try to set a good example.
-Dan
For many reasons I regret that I started this thread. The judgmental, fault-finding, self-righteousness of the past many comments crushes my spirit. If that were all to come of this discussion, I would be ashamed and embarrassed personally.
Thankfully, something good appears to be surfacing - a way to legally and copyright respectfully share e-books. As previously mentioned Amazon is making something of the kin available to Kindle owners. So is Barnes and Noble with Nook. I hope and pray Logos can find a way to follow suit in some manner. That result would almost make all the grief I feel worth it in a "end justifies the means" kind of rationale.
I am one of perhaps many who purchased Logos and electronic books through Logos which I also owned in hard copy form. I spent so much money on my professional library that Satan even used it to elicit carnal pride within me. I did own paper copies of the entire set of Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, the set of International Critical Commentaries, the set of Pulpit Commentary, the set of Martin Luther's Works, the set of Barclay's NT Commentary, and thousands more. I am not boasting. Much of that library I now own in Logos format and many of the paper copies I have given away to seminary students. I prefer the search capabilities, cut and paste options, etc. that Logos provides and have justified the expense on that basis in my own mind.
Nevertheless, it continues to bother me that I cannot share an e-book like I can a paper book. Nor can I give it away. Currently, my only option is to purchase the same book a third time. Somehow, that just doesn't seem right to me. While I understand and uphold the current laws, I long for a better way.
As for the matter of several persons at one location using the same software, I think many other publishers have solved that already with group licensing. Our church uses Quickbooks. In order for our treasurer to use it, she has one license. For our Finance Committee to review her work and control the budget, we had to purchase an "additional user license" which was almost the cost of the original software. I'm not a software engineer, but it seems to me that something similar might be an excellent option for Logos to pursue.
God's blessings to all who consider this note. I pray these thoughts can be a blessing for us all.
Can we report those who abuse the license? I sure don't mind telling logos of a so called "friend" who has the software installed in his computer and let his sons (3 of them who work on 3 different churches) use the software. The worst part is the so called "ministers" boast of having paid so much money to upgrade so each can have it on their iPhone and stuff. I would not hesitate for a moment reporting them if Logos gave me the OK. The worst part is that they told me and my brother that we were dumb paying twice for the software. I told him not dumb because I decided to upgrade to Platinum and add other Spanish libraries while my brother decided to stay with his scholars package. It really ticks me off to see them preach using "sophisticated words" that they get out of the software when they're not good role models by doing what they are doing. Their churches may not know about it, but I DO. So please Logos, let me report them, I can give you their names right now! Sorry, but I hate to see people thinking they're too smart to avoid getting caught when they should know better that God is watching! GB
Giovanni Baggio Replied: Yesterday 8:00 PM MJD you must not have read the post where I apologized to people at the beginning of this year. But anyway, I'm not going to follow your lead and argue non sense with you. By the way, I've never threaten anybody in this forum and if I were to do it I'd be more direct than you. Read you're statement "I am so glad that I have become a christian..." that carries a lot of implications, if not why separate them with" ..."? But like I said, this thread is closed to me, I'll participate in others. I forgive you
Giovanni Baggio Replied: Yesterday 8:00 PM
MJD you must not have read the post where I apologized to people at the beginning of this year. But anyway, I'm not going to follow your lead and argue non sense with you. By the way, I've never threaten anybody in this forum and if I were to do it I'd be more direct than you. Read you're statement "I am so glad that I have become a christian..." that carries a lot of implications, if not why separate them with" ..."? But like I said, this thread is closed to me, I'll participate in others. I forgive you
Giovanni - Here is your threatening post. I am confused at why you continue to post. Brother, please reconsider your motives.
"Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
We are commanded to hold each other accountable and make each other stronger. God has given us a brilliant plan for this that keeps all close by his side.
Because we are fallen and sinful, we will have conflicts. God has given us a model for working out those conflicts, whether they are big or small. We are to confront sin and but work toward overlooking personal offenses.
Proverbs 19:11
A man’s discretion makes him slow to anger.And it is his glory to overlook a transgression.
First make sure your friend has actually “sinned” and not just done something that you didn’t like. What scripture have they violated?.
James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Matthew 18 is the instruction manual on how to confront sin. It should be studied and parsed and restudied. (For more on this read The Peacemakers by Ken Sande)
Matthew 18:15-22
If your brother sins go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as Gentile and a tax collector.
Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.”
We tend to confront things in people that we do not like, but to shy away from confronting on sin using scripture. Ironically, both of these can be sin in themselves.
Confrontation is to be for restoration into the body.
2 Timothy 2:24-25
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged.
With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
It is important to note that God is the one who grants repentance. We don’t correct only if we think that the person being corrected will respond well. God tells us just to do it and leave the results up to Him.
2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the world; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Temptation comes in many forms, but the biggest temptation when being in the position of confronting someone on sin is to be come arrogant. Tim Keller believes that in order to confront someone on sin correctly, you have to be as grieved over the sin being confronted as the one in sin should be. That you should bear the burden of their sin with them.
*(There is an exception to this ‘gentleness’ principle for religious leaders who will not repent and be accountable for their sin. Christ, Paul, John the Baptist and countless prophets both taught and practiced rebuking such “hidden reefs, false teachers, scribes, hypocrites, and Pharisees” both harshly and publicly, sometimes calling them out by name and even calling them insulting names. See Jeremiah 5, 8 and 23, Ezekiel 23, Matthew 3, Matthew 12:34, Matthew 23, 2 Peter 2, and 1 Tim. 5:20. This harshness may not have been to turn the hypocrite from his sin [as he would likely have done so during private confrontation or upon his own reading and teaching of scripture if he was a true believer with a repentant heart], as much as it was for the protection and teaching of the rest of God’s people who were being lead by, and being victims of, unrepentant, unconfessed sinners who propagated false teaching. This harsh, public rebuke is only for those who have been entrusted with God’s authority, and use it for their own purposes at the expense of the flock).
James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Matthew 7:3-5
Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Note that the passage does not tell us not to take the log out of our brother’s eye, but to first deal with our own sin. This process restores both the confronter and the confronted to Christ, pulling all back into unity in Him.
This verse is also important to keep in mind as you examine your motives if you decide not to confront someone on their sin. Are you choosing not to confront them because you do not want to deal with your own sin? Do you love your log?
Ephesians 4:1-7, 11-16
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
With all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift….
…He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
As a result, we are not longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
From whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Unity as believers is a natural by product of unity with Christ. It does not require anyone to be forced or coerced. If we have the same love, the same obedience and the same purpose in life, we will be headed toward the same goal and offering one another grace when we can’t agree on one means of getting there as opposed to another...
Philippians 2:1-11
Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
But emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
So that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus was God. Although He and He alone had the right to judge and condemn us, He chose to walk among us and even put Himself beneath us, so that we might have a chance at redemption. We, being sinful, certainly have the duty to place ourselves beneath our others so that they might have a chance at redemption. Confrontation of sin in their lives is to be done in such a position of service.
Colossians 3:12-17
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
Bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in y our hearts to God.
Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
When we became repentant of our sins, God forgave us fully and threw our sins ‘as far as the east is from the west’. When others repent of their sins, and ‘bear fruit in keeping with repentance’, we are to do the same and wipe the slate clean for them.
(A common misconception that arises from this verse and that can result in spiritual abuse in the church, is the idea that we as Christians must forgive all sins against us. Not so. We are required to forgive the repentant as Christ forgives us when we are repentant, and may forgive the unrepentant if we so choose, but forgiveness of unrepentant sin is not required of us, as it is not required of Jesus [who does not forgive all sin]. If one chooses not to forgive, and hold someone’s sin against them as they walk through church discipline with them, one must take GREAT care not to become bitter, proud or to hypocritical themselves.)
As you can see, before we confront a sister on her sin, we have a LOT of work to do on ourselves.
Confrontation is not to be done as a reaction to being injured out of selfish anger, but as a proactive act of service to the one being confronted. We are not to elevate ourselves above others, bur follow Christ’s example and consider one another more important than ourselves.
Remember, you are just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.
If when confronted your sister repents:
2 Corinthians 2:7-8
So that on the contrary, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.
Matthew 18:23-35 tells us the story of a man who begged for mercy and was offered it, but would not offer mercy to a repentant man who begged him for it. The end of the story was not pleasant for him. Search your heart. When your sister (or your husband for that matter) has shown repentance, do you still hold a grudge?
If when confronted your sister does not repent after going through the Matthew 18 process:
Titus 3:10-11
Reject a fractious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Even this is for restoration, so that the person can not be in denial about their broken relationship with God and can be convicted into repentance.
Even if fellowship with a believer is broken, we are to continue loving them and encouraging them to come back to Christ, as we would any unbeliever. Time can be spent with them if it is talking about their potential repentance and restoration to Christ, but that should be the extend of the relationship.
Be wise in recognizing who is your “brother” in Christ and who is not:
Matthew 7:15-23
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree product good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?”
And I will declare to them, “I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.”
If Jesus said that there would be those who even cast out demons and performed miracles in His name, and yet were not his followers, we need to be careful not to assume just because someone attends church, or even pastors a church, that they know Christ. We are called to look closely at a person’s works to find evidence of their union with Christ.
It is important to note that in a healthy Christian community where the Matthew 18 process is being practiced, such ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ are usually prevented from ever getting a foothold in the flock in the first place. When obedience and confession of sin is the norm, one who is unrepentant stands out like a sore thumb.
Scripture tells us that confronting such sheep in wolves clothing will result not in their repentance and restoration into the body but in retribution against the one who confronted them.
Proverbs 9:7-9
He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself;And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself.
Do not reprove a scoffer lest he hate you;Reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser,Teach a righteous man, and he will increase his learning.
Matthew 7:6
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
1 John 2:3-6
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him”;
But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected by this we know that we are in Him:
The one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
1 John 5:2-3
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
When trying to decide if someone is a true disciple of Christ, there are two areas to look at to see what their true character is:
1. What they do in a conflict when they have something to loose.
2. What they do when they think no one is watching
Have you ever corrected someone, only to be attacked for it? Were there any signs in their life in the first place that may have told you that they were not actually a teachable disciple of Jesus Christ?
Have you responded badly to someone’s correction of something that you did wrong? Are you a true and teachable disciple of Jesus Christ?"
Great post MJD, this is some good insight....
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