OT: Some thoughts on the KJV
Comments
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I imagine Paul I am a fellow dinosaur that will never change but I do enjoy Logos and in the month+ I have used it I already have uncovered so many treasures that I was unaware of by using the word study tools and I really am glad that when choosing my preferred Bible, most all the other books in my Library will link to the KJV.
Having read the beliefs and statements of W & H based on many of their actual quotes, I cannot imagine either of them ever being allow to speak in a biblically based chuch. On the other hands when we have pastor's making statements like "Cash is King", who knows ?
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Matthew C Jones said:
Seriously folks, I think I have come up with a method whereby we can each resolve this issue to our own satisfaction while staying completely in the forum guidelines. The only requirements will be:
- You have to have Logos 4 Bible software
- You have to be willing to invest a little time
- You have to be honest with your self.
- (and you have to reasonably know where you stand)
So if God grants me a tomorrow I will share what I have. "Silver & gold have I none......"
""" Bump. """
#4 (and you have to reasonably know 'WHY you stand' where you stand) maybe?
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Ron Keyston Jr said:
I think it is worth mentioning that not everybody that uses "only" the KJV could be termed a KJV-Onlyist (Onlyer? Onlyite?) For a long time, the KJV was the only Bible I used...for various reasons...but I never got on board with most of the "doctrines" that characterize many of the KJV-Only groups.
Matthew C Jones said:they reject the change of doctrine that results from modern versions.
Matthew, would you mind elaborating on this point? Despite my having done some fairly extensive reading on both sides of the KJV-Only debate, I don't remember coming across this argument...though I could be wrong. Thanks!
[Not Matthew but I found one]
Doctrine changes between the KJV and the NIV etc. JUST ONE that is all it takes to ‘prove’ the point that there are changes.
Your brother takes $1,000,000 from your bank account and runs away with your wife taking your brand new not yet paid for car leaving the six children behind. By all Bibles based on the N-U text you are in danger of judgment for being upset. In the KJV he is the one that is in danger.
MAT 5:22b KJV “without a cause” - All N-U based “no corresponding text” Some drop it to the footnotes but footnotes are not part of the “Scripture” and when was the last time you heard the footnotes read in Church? [As part of the normal service not in a class Bible Study]
AV | Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Racac, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire
c Raca: that is, Vain fellow
Bishops 1568 Mat 5:22 But I say vnto you, that who so euer is angry with his brother, vnaduisedly, shalbe in daunger of iudgement. And who so euer shall say vnto his brother, racha, shalbe in daunger of a councell: But, whosoeuer shall saye (thou) foole, shalbe in daunger of hell fire.
MAJORITY TEXT Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever gets angry with his brother without cause will be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Empty-head!' will be liable to the council. But whoever says, ' fool!' will be liable to the fiery hell.
GENEVA 1587 Mat 5:22 But I say vnto you, whosoeuer is angry with his brother vnaduisedly, shalbe culpable of iudgment; whosoeuer sayth vnto his brother, Raca, shalbe worthy to be punished by the Councill; whosoeuer shall say, Foole, shalbe worthy to be punished with hell fire.
AMP | Mt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who continues to be o angry with his brother or harbors malice (enmity of heart) against him shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the court; and whoever speaks contemptuously and insultingly to his brother shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.
o Some manuscripts insert here: “without cause.”
ESV | Mt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother 2 will be liable a to judgment; whoever insults 3 his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell 4 of fire..
2 Some manuscripts insert without cause
a [See ver. 21 above]
3 Greek says Raca to (a term of abuse)
4 Greek Gehenna; also verses 29, 30
D-R 1899 | Mt 5:22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [Listed as translated from the Latin Vulgate]
NIV | Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister b, c will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
b The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verse 23.
c Some manuscripts brother or sister without cause
d An Aramaic term of contempt
NIV84 | Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother b will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca, c’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
b Some manuscripts brother without cause
c An Aramaic term of contempt
RV 1885 Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. [Based on W-H]
Student is to check all other Bibles0 -
Blessings to you, David!
The KJV is probably my most favourite Bible. Grew up with it! Will always love it.
In these discussions, the real "hub" of the matter is whether or not the original autograph of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and so on is reflected more in the KJV or another version on a particular passage.
For example, Matthew's "without a cause" .... Was that Greek part of the original or what?
To say that the KJV always has it right is to oversay it, methinks.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Blessings to you, David!
The KJV is probably my most favorite Bible. Grew up with it! Will always love it.
In these discussions, the real "hub" of the matter is whether or not the original autograph of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and so on is reflected more in the KJV or another version on a particular passage.
For example, Matthew's "without a cause" .... Was that Greek part of the original or what?
To say that the KJV always has it right is to oversay it, methinks.
Thank you - I need all the blessings I can get - But the question asked by an other poster was: are there different doctrines in the different versions.
Right or wrong I have shown two: No fasting [Matthew 17:21] [Mark 9:29 ] and [Matthew 5:22] any time you hold something against your brother you are in trouble [does not care what he did to you first]
Methinks that saying that the KJV is alway right is to oversay it [I like the way you worded that] BUT the topic is what do the KJV Only people think?
Was it in the Greek? Majority [yes] or N-U [no]? W & H had those that said that they were very wrong and totally off track back in 1890 or so! Today many see them as Prophets! [deliberate overstatment] [the KJO people see them and all of their converts as wrong. The Textual Critics see the KJO people as wrong. - one or the other or maybe both is/are wrong]
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David Ames said:
Doctrine changes between the KJV and the NIV etc. JUST ONE that is all it takes to ‘prove’ the point that there are changes.
VERY well done, David! [Y][H]
Much better than the nothing I have posted up till now.....[:$]
I do have a link that presents many more but I don't want everyone to start debating. So for interest & information purposes I now offer this link.:
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/fight.html#fight10
Using your own Logos tools you can do a version comparison on just about any key doctrine by typing in the references. Carefully read the renderings and pay close attention to what is missing from the different versions. I think the key differences will become clear based on the underlying manuscript ollectionss used.
note: if you further explore the website for the link above, you will see an interesting chapter comparing (exposing?) the NKJV to the KJV and addressing the many "revisions" to the AV. Remember, I am not beating a drum for any certain version. I'm just interested in the amazing facts one can document by their own studies using Logos.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Milford Charles Murray said:
For example, Matthew's "without a cause" .... Was that Greek part of the original or what?
Read Metzger's Textual Commentary on this verse logosres:tcgnt;ref=Bible.Mt5.22 and several commentaries. Although most believe εἰκῆ was not original, it does have strong manuscript support (see logosres:nac22;ref=Bible.Mt5.21-22;off=839).
Decide for yourself whether or not you accept Metzger's claim that it is more likely that someone would have added a word than that someone else would have dropped it.
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David Ames said:Milford Charles Murray said:
Blessings to you, David!
The KJV is probably my most favorite Bible. Grew up with it! Will always love it.
In these discussions, the real "hub" of the matter is whether or not the original autograph of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and so on is reflected more in the KJV or another version on a particular passage.
For example, Matthew's "without a cause" .... Was that Greek part of the original or what?
To say that the KJV always has it right is to oversay it, methinks.
Thank you - I need all the blessings I can get - But the question asked by an other poster was: are there different doctrines in the different versions.
Right or wrong I have shown two: No fasting [Matthew 17:21] [Mark 9:29 ] and [Matthew 5:22] any time you hold something against your brother you are in trouble [does not care what he did to you first]
Methinks that saying that the KJV is alway right is to oversay it [I like the way you worded that] BUT the topic is what do the KJV Only people think?
Was it in the Greek? Majority [yes] or N-U [no]? W & H had those that said that they were very wrong and totally off track back in 1890 or so! Today many see them as Prophets! [deliberate overstatment] [the KJO people see them and all of their converts as wrong. The Textual Critics see the KJO people as wrong. - one or the other or maybe both is/are wrong]
Frankly, David, I personally do not consider what you mentioned re. fasting and re. angry without a cause to be doctrinal changes. Not at all! Not in the slightest!
Also, very frankly, we are all making too many generalisations; and they are mostly all wrong, including this one! *smile*
What Matthew just said in his last post is that we must study, study, study! Of course we can trust God to preserve His Holy Word, but language is something that we really have to work on, along with what is the original autograph.
My example is this following passage -- from two versions (look particularly at v. 11):
So............. what about "being perfect, being of one mind, and so on"? Is it false doctrine or what if we do not "aim at restoration or work for peace in the Body of Christ? I sort of like the "holy kiss" business! *smile*
2 Corinthians 13:11–14 (ESV)
11Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
12Greet one another with a holy kiss.
13All the saints greet you.
14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Corinthians 13:11–14 (KJV 1900)
11Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
12Greet one another with an holy kiss.
13All the saints salute you.
14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Exactly, Jack! Exactly! You have made my point much better than I possibly could have!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Frankly, David, I personally do not consider what you mentioned re. fasting and re. angry without a cause to be doctrinal changes. Not at all! Not in the slightest!
You are absolutely correct - they are not what most of us see as doctrinal changes. But they are changes. and THEY (the KJO group) see any change as wrong.
We are not going to change the KJO group. What we can do is see that their view does have a valid point - there are changes - we brush them off as minor, trivial - they don't ! [I will take more time and see if I owe you more of an explanation But it did get Matthew back. ]
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David Ames said:Milford Charles Murray said:
Frankly, David, I personally do not consider what you mentioned re. fasting and re. angry without a cause to be doctrinal changes. Not at all! Not in the slightest!
You are absolutely correct - they are not what most of us see as doctrinal changes. But they are changes. and THEY (the KJO group) see any change as wrong.
We are not going to change the KJO group. What we can do is see that their view does have a valid point - there are changes - we brush them off as minor, trivial - they don't ! [I will take more time and see if I owe you more of an explanation But it did get Matthew back. ]
David, I am very pleased with your post! *smile*
Sometimes I'm a bit slow, but finally I think I understand a bit of what you've been sharing with us!
2 Thes 3.16
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Jumping in here on what appears to be a very long thread...
Today in the NYT, an article appeared on this subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/weekinreview/24mcgrath.html?_r=1&hpw
It is worth the read. I grew up in the generation which hounded into us that the KJV was impossible to read and understand. It was also the generation where for the first time, a multitude of other newer translations were made available. I am without a doubt that the two thoughts just written are connected. My 11 year old son is about to finish listening to the KJV for the 9th time. I can tell you emphatically, that he does not have any problems understanding the KJV of the Bible. At home, we do not use the KJV in our readings and none of my kids nor I use the KJV when we read the Scriptures. They listen to it only because it is the only free downloadable version available...and they have no problems understanding it. The article in the NYT mentioned that so much of our everyday language we use comes from the KJV. This Bible has really shaped the English language.
This thread has been so long....and no doubt will continue and most likely be the longest thread on the Logos site. Anyone have any ideas why that might be? The topic of the KJV touches emotional nerves on both sides of the issue. It involves money, politics, denomination fights and outright deception on both sides. Yet there it stands...having surpassed the test of time.
I am not one of the King James only people. I appreciate many versions of the Bible for my studies of Scripture. The KJV will continue to be lambasted...and I suspect it will continue to survive, long after the modern 20th and 21st century versions. I suspect that the language of the KJV will still be used in everyday English and the language of the modern versions will fade with each generation.
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Mark said:
I suspect that the language of the KJV will still be used in everyday English and the language of the modern versions will fade with each generation.
They used King James English (or at least thee and thou and ye and wilt and doth and such) in the Royal Wedding today:
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Rosie Perera said:Mark said:
I suspect that the language of the KJV will still be used in everyday English and the language of the modern versions will fade with each generation.
They used King James English (or at least thee and thou and ye and wilt and doth and such) in the Royal Wedding today:
That is basically true. It conforms more with the 1928 edition of the BCP than with the 1979 edition which has
The Declaration of Consent
The Celebrant says to the womanN., will you have this man to be your husband; to live
together in the covenant of marriage? Will you love him,
comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health;
and, forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you
both shall live?The Woman answers
I will.
The Celebrant says to the man
N., will you have this woman to be your wife; to live
together in the covenant of marriage? Will you love her,
comfort her, honor and keep her, in sickness and in health;
and, forsaking all others, be faithful to her as long as you
both shall live?The Man answers
I will.
There are still those in the Episcopal Church who continue to use the 1928 version. Also, there is more than one form of Rite in the 1979 BCP. I'm used to using Rite 2, but Rite 1 has the more traditional language.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Mark! *smile*Mark said:Jumping in here on what appears to be a very long thread...
Today in the NYT, an article appeared on this subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/weekinreview/24mcgrath.html?_r=1&hpw
It is worth the read. I grew up in the generation which hounded into us that the KJV was impossible to read and understand. It was also the generation where for the first time, a multitude of other newer translations were made available. I am without a doubt that the two thoughts just written are connected. My 11 year old son is about to finish listening to the KJV for the 9th time. I can tell you emphatically, that he does not have any problems understanding the KJV of the Bible. At home, we do not use the KJV in our readings and none of my kids nor I use the KJV when we read the Scriptures. They listen to it only because it is the only free downloadable version available...and they have no problems understanding it. The article in the NYT mentioned that so much of our everyday language we use comes from the KJV. This Bible has really shaped the English language.
This thread has been so long....and no doubt will continue and most likely be the longest thread on the Logos site. Anyone have any ideas why that might be? The topic of the KJV touches emotional nerves on both sides of the issue. It involves money, politics, denomination fights and outright deception on both sides. Yet there it stands...having surpassed the test of time.
I am not one of the King James only people. I appreciate many versions of the Bible for my studies of Scripture. The KJV will continue to be lambasted...and I suspect it will continue to survive, long after the modern 20th and 21st century versions. I suspect that the language of the KJV will still be used in everyday English and the language of the modern versions will fade with each generation.
Thanks much for the N.Y. Times quote. I relished it!
Also, relishing in the fact that at any moment now Logos is going to permit me to download the complete works of Shakespeare for only $28.45 Canadian! Am so grateful.
BTW - for those who want that Shakespeare, it appears that since it is not yet shipped that Logos have not yet raised the price; so you will never get it cheaper, eh?
Jude 2
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
BTW - for those who want that Shakespeare, it appears that since it is not yet shipped that Logos have not yet raised the price; so you will never get it cheaper, eh?
You have mentioned this at other times, and I have consistently ignored Shakespeare (I could not ignore you). But today, you convinced me, and I ordered prior to the price increase. Still not sure why. [8-|]
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Jack Caviness said:Milford Charles Murray said:
BTW - for those who want that Shakespeare, it appears that since it is not yet shipped that Logos have not yet raised the price; so you will never get it cheaper, eh?
You have mentioned this at other times, and I have consistently ignored Shakespeare (I could not ignore you). But today, you convinced me, and I ordered prior to the price increase. Still not sure why.
Peace, Jack! *smile* Hopefully you will still be pleased a couple of years from now with Shakespeare. Don't rush it. Start with a few of his comedies.
or, better yet, continue to woo your beautiful bride with his love sonnets and love poetry. Then, you will both be blessed again as you have been again and again and again in the years together that God gave you!
Here's a couple of samples for you to read to your beloved .........
Love Sonnet 18
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate: Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, And summer's lease hath all too short a date: Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, And often is his gold complexion dimm'd; And every fair from fair sometime declines, By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd; But thy eternal summer shall not fade Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest; Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade, When in eternal lines to time thou growest: So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, So long lives this and this gives life to thee.
Jack, I like the King James Language. It's not for everyone; and I hope you end up enjoying your purchase!
*smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Here's a couple of samples for you to read to your beloved .........
That is better than "your neck is like a strong tower hung with the shields of mighty men". (I did that from memory, so don't post a link to Song to show me how bad my memory has become [:D]).
When I served on missile submarines, we could not communicate with the outside world for the 50+ days we were submerged. I would write a group of letters and leave them with the Chaplain to be mailed at certain times during the deployment. One trip I used a book of poetry to compose the letters. I thought the masterpiece was Elizabeth Barrett Browning's "How Do I Love Thee?"
She hated it! because of the last line "and, if God choose, I shall but love thee better after death." She did not want me to write her about death while I was under water for all those days. [8-|]
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After this, Jack, I quit! I hope you made a good choice for yourself. Shakespeare, like the KJV, is a lot of work to understand it all, but then ---------- all of a sudden, after sweat and tears === there is a break through!
*smile*
Couldn't resist one more love passage:
From Romeo and Juliet
Romeo: If I profane with my unworthiest hand
This holy shrine, the gentle sin is this;
My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready
stand
to smooth that rough touch with a
tender kiss
Juliet: Good pilgrim, you do wrong you hand
too much,
Which mannerly devotion shows in
this:
For saints have hands that pilgrims'
hands do touch,
And palm to palm is holy palmer's kiss.
Romeo: Have not saints lips, and holy
palmers too?
Juliet: Ay, pilgrim, lips that they must use in
prayer.
Romeo: O! then, dear saint, let lips do what
hands do;
They pray, Grant thou, lest faith turn
to despair.
Juliet: Saints do not move, though grant for
prayers' sake.
Romeo: then move not, while my prayers'
effect I take.
~ Shakespeare Love PoetryPhilippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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George Somsel said:
I prefer the Nestle-Aland translation of the KJV and the BHS translation of the KJV for OT.
I saw what you did there.. [:O]
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Milford Charles Murray said:
After this, Jack, I quit! I hope you made a good choice for yourself. Shakespeare, like the KJV, is a lot of work to understand it all, but then ---------- all of a sudden, after sweat and tears === there is a break through!
I think we might need to wait a little longer for that breakthrough. It's still listed on the prepub page which is generally taken down before shipping begins. The link to the resource on the orders page seems also to be editable which is usually disabled prior to shipping. I think the date is about to slip again. Well, I got it for my Kindle so I can read it any time I want.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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O.K., George! Then just loan me your Kindle!
*smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
O.K., George! Then just loan me your Kindle!
*smile*
It's official -- they've changed the date to 5/2. Boy, is May ever going to be heavy ! [*-)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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