Pastoral advice for those who like to help people with L4.
I would first like to start this post with a question for a little self reflection. Have you been sad for some reason, and someone told you that you should not be sad. Or maybe you were worrying about something, and someone told you that you should be worrying. How was that advice received? Did you stop being sad or stop worrying because someone said that you should not be sad or be worrying? Maybe you were even put off by this person's comments? I know that I fall into the later. I have also noticed in Logos' forum that I am not the only one. Thus, this post.
Telling someone not to feel how they are feeling, to tell a person to deny her/his feelings simply does not work. As a matter of fact, it can only makes things worse.
Most of us have seen post written by people who are having problems with L4 for one reason or another. Some of these post express the user's frustrations and in some cases their anger towards L4.
When we read posts like these, please simply acknowledge her/his feelings, and say something like, "How can I help."
When people say, "I do not have that problem," "not everyone is having that problem," or "Logos cannot do anything about it because the problem comes from Microsoft's WPF," the only thing that is being accomplished with these statements is that person saying them is puring vinegar over the person's open wound. It does not help. The person that is having the issue(s) simply does not care if other people are not having the issue. He or she simply wants L4 to work for them.
Also, In the mist of his/her frustrations and anger, Giving advice to this person is like talking to a wall. We need to let the person vent because this is what the person needs to do. Once the person has vented, then, and only then, we can help the person with their issues.
Comments
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Tom,
I do understand what you are saying...but this is a tech forum....knowing that someone who is also on the beta with a similar machine but who is not having your particular problem is good information, and can lead to a resolution....I know, I've used that information myself to track down why me and not others on some issue.
Also the WPF thing is important information...no?....
You may be describing someone who feels like you do when they are experiencing issues with L4 but I'm the opposite....I welcome input, negative or positive in the particular issue and I'd like to know all the technical facts so I can proceed....
Just my perspective....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Tom,
I regret how your experience with this forum has minimized your feelings. I cannot explain why this has happened, or defend any responses. I am an avid user of Logos and would like to help. How can I help you solve your concern?
Gary Carr
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A thoughtful post, Tom.
I think we could all do better at listening and empathizing before jumping on to problem solving.
However, it's not always easy to gauge the level of frustration, nor is it easy for some to respond to an angry statement with something that would not increase the level of anger (or frustration, etc.). Written media suffers from a lack of non-verbal context.
Another part of this, I think, is that when people say "I don't have that problem" (e.g.) what they are (or at least I am) trying to do is to put the issue in a larger context. For example, when someone says "Logos4 has problem X," my response is "No it doesn't," but I realize that I need to limit that statement to my experience. It also suggests that the problem is not necessarily with the software itself, but with the interaction of the software with a particular setup. Not that this helps with the emotional content of the statement "I have problem X," but it is a part of the framework for finding/suggesting solutions.
But I see how making such statements could have the effect of 'pouring vinegar on a wound,' when the emotional context of the issue being expressed is not honored and dealt with. I think this is particularly true for some of us whose personalities are not as emotionally sensitive as others (Meyers-Briggs "T" vs. "F," if you know what that means), and/or folks who simply don't see the relevance or importance of the emotional context when addressing an issue.
Add to that, the fact that some of us see the same issue's coming up again and again, that have been addressed by Logos staff (e.g., the issues with WPF), and we sometimes simply repeat those responses in an attempt to educate the poster about the part of the issue that has been addressed previously. For me, such explanations are helpful. Perhaps for others they are not, but then we need to distinguish, again, whether the main issue is emotional or technical.
Okay, I hope I'm not sounding like I'm defending insensitivity. I'm not, but neither do I think that these responses are always unreasonable, inexcusable and/or out of bounds.
At the same time, your call to greater sensitivity to the emotional side of these posts, even when they come with an accusatory tone, and even when they base their conclusions on faulty premises or false information, is a helpful one. I know you made me think again about that part of the interaction on these forums.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Agree with the issue with some of the forum answers. 'Heh, buddy, why don't you just get a 'real' computer like me? If you look at some of the recent frustrated users, they often precede their comments on how they really like Logos 'but', or have a really good computer 'but'. They clearly already know what kind of heat they're going to have to deal with on the forum.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
But I see how making such statements could have the effect of 'pouring vinegar on a wound,' when the emotional context of the issue being expressed is not honored and dealt with. I think this is particularly true for some of us whose personalities are not as emotionally sensitive as others (Meyers-Briggs "T" vs. "F," if you know what that means), and/or folks who simply don't see the relevance or importance of the emotional context when addressing an issue.
A quick summary of "T" vs "F" can be found on the following link. http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/thinking-or-feeling.asp
Some of us on the forum, can relate to the following quote.[:O]
Richard DeRuiter said:I think this is particularly true for some of us whose personalities are not as emotionally sensitive as others (Meyers-Briggs "T" vs. "F," if you know what that means), and/or folks who simply don't see the relevance or importance of the emotional context when addressing an issue.
As the autor of some of the "Fustrated with Logos4" posts in the past [:@] [8o|]. I can relate to anyone how is trying to get logos 4 to work on a machine that has taken a personal dislike to upgrades.
The orginal post by offering "Advise" was take by me as a gentel reminder that when people are hurting or frustrated, etc, we need to let them know that we honestly desire to help. But we need to ask some clarifiy questions to wisely answer their questions and concerns.
I have been trying to model my on advice and help out a little on the Spanish Forum. I seems that you need the pactience of Job, to get a responce on that Forum.[;)]
When because of my God given, not not totaly santified personality, I may at times (too often) come off a little harsh at times.
Thank the Lord that others on this forum and also the Logos Tech Support tends to ignor "snide" remarks and go straight to "how can I help you solve your problem with Logos4" instead of trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit and convict the wicked poster of his or her sin.
Thanks for the advice, A different Tom, "Tomas"
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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All very postmodern, this ultra-sensitivity to feelings. Personally, even if I'm angry or frustrated by Logos 4 or anything else, I'd prefer a robust, factual explanation about WPFs, other users not having the same problem etc. to help me get the thing in a rational perspective. Surely we should have enough inner strength to be able to cope with that?
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David Matthew said:
All very postmodern, this ultra-sensitivity to feelings. Personally, even if I'm angry or frustrated by Logos 4 or anything else, I'd prefer a robust, factual explanation about WPFs, other users not having the same problem etc. to help me get the thing in a rational perspective. Surely we should have enough inner strength to be able to cope with that?
I guess I'm old fashioned or I was just brought up that way (probably a combination) but I also share this perspective....and I've always been a "fixer"...and not a "sympathetic ear".....it's probably good I'm not a Pastor.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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David Matthew said:
I'd prefer a robust, factual explanation about WPFs, other users not having the same problem etc. to help me get the thing in a rational perspective.
Me too. If I am attending counseling sessions with my Pastor for marriage difficulties the last thing I want to hear from him is how everyone else in our church has marriage problems (and thus "feel my pain"). I want him to give me hope and direction to solve the problems and enjoy the relationship as it is intended to be.
I am a pragmatist so I do want to know what the problems are.
I don't care if others feel my pain or not. I just want direction out of my wilderness.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Tom,
Your post is excellent and needed.
The problem so often is our ego gets in the way of helping people. Straightening out other peoples' attitudes becomes more important than being helpful, and we cannot even see our own attitude. A very needed post by all of us, but especially needed by those who us who do not think they need it.
Indeed, there is a lot of "I" in too many posts, including mine.
I think C. S. Lewis said that pride is the one sin that we see in everyone else, but so seldom see in ourselves. The more of it we have, the less we see it in ourselves.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Hi Everyone,
As we can tell just from these few posts, all of us are different. As Richard stated, some of us are T's (Meyers-Briggs' thinkers) and some of us are F's (Meyers-Briggs' feelers). The one item that is common among all of us is that we assume that everyone else is just like us. If we are a thinker, our first response is to treat other people as thinkers. The same is true if we are a feeler.
The problem with these forums (and all text only ways of communicating) is that we do not have eye contact. We cannot tell if the person has steam coming out of his or her ears or if the person is making a joke.
I once lived in Columbus Ohio, and I made an online joke once about OSU football. Let us say that my joke did not go over too well. (NOTE: I should have known better than to make a joke about OSU football to an OSU fan who lives in Columbus Ohio.)
The reason why my joke did not go over well comes from the fact that this person did not know I was joking.
In the same way, we cannot assume to know if the person who is posting is a "T" or a "F."
As we attempt to help people, we do need to ask clarifying question. What we do not need to do is to make statements that can be taken the wrong way (this is something that is very easy to say but it is very difficult to do.)
For an example, let us say that you are driving to work and your car breaks down. Now a stranger comes to help you and says this to you, "Look at all of those cars going down the road. They do not have the same problem with their car that you are having with your car." How will this statement rest with you? It is a true statement, but how does it help the person who is stranded along the side of the road?
David, you stated that you "if I'm angry or frustrated by Logos 4 or anything else, I'd prefer a robust, factual explanation." I am going with the "anything else" statement you made in your post.
Feelings/ultra-sensitivity to feelings and postmodernism are not the same thing. We have been with feelings for a lot longer than we have been dealing with postmodernism.
Postmodernism is a reaction to modernism and modernism's failures. (If modernism was successful, why do so many people die from hunger? Why is our planet in such bad shape? Why? Why? Why?) Postmodernism is willing to deconstruct anything; Nothing is off limits. People who follow postmodernism are willing to say, "We are glad that this meta-narrative is authoritative and is life giving for you. But this same meta-narrative is not true to us, and this is why it is not true to us."
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Tom,
you made some very very good points...I'll try to keep them in mind....
One thing that I think was a swing and a miss was your comparison:
"For an example, let us say that you are driving to work and your car breaks down. Now a stranger comes to help you and says this to you, "Look at all of those cars going down the road. They do not have the same problem with their car that you are having with your car." How will this statement rest with you? It is a true statement, but how does it help the person who is stranded along the side of the road?
Car problems at the side of the road are not the same as software troubleshooting at all.
As was mentioned...knowing that "X video card is not the culprit" in a particular troubleshooting issue is equally valid an answer as "Z video card has been the culprit in the past"
Both give important information and head off potential "rabbit trails" in deciding what the real culprit is....
Wouldn't you agree?Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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tom collinge said:
For an example, let us say that you are driving to work and your car breaks down. Now a stranger comes to help you and says this to you, "Look at all of those cars going down the road. They do not have the same problem with their car that you are having with your car." How will this statement rest with you? It is a true statement, but how does it help the person who is stranded along the side of the road?
Thanks again, Tom, for another thoughtful post.
But the above quote contains a question I still want to answer, or at least respond to. Let's be even more specific and say you pull over to help and the person says, "There is something wrong with the design of the Ford Fiestas because my Ford Fiesta is always breaking down." Let's also suppose that I'm driving a Ford Fiesta that has not been at all problematic for me. Wouldn't I say "Well, my experience is different than yours, and I know other Ford Fiesta owners who are very happy with their cars. I don't think the problem is with the design of the Ford Fiesta." Wouldn't that be a closer analogy to your same point?
But then let's see if we can answer your question, "How does it help the person stranded on the side of the road?" Well for one, it puts the emphasis closer to the issue. One of the keys to problem solving is differentiation: what's different
about this setup (which isn't working), from another one (that is working). In this case, the person may have a 'lemon.' In which case, it would be helpful to isolate the part(s) of that particular system that is causing the problem. On the other hand, the person could have a car that has a problem other cars of the same make & model are soon to have, but don't have yet. If that's the case, it would be important to isolate the issue so that it could be dealt with, not just for that particular case, but for all of us. In either case, the fact that such a setup is not typical is helpful for getting the car not only back on the road today, but solving the problem once and for all.The mistake I sometimes make (others too?), is that we too often assume that when someone posts a problem here, their primary goal is to get help. After being part of this forum since it's beginning (and before that with the newsgroups), I've concluded that this is simply not true. Some folks merely want to vent, to express their anger/frustration and find the kind of company that misery loves so much. In other words, not everyone who posts that they have a problem are looking for help. I find that baffling. It makes no sense to me. It is foreign to how my mind works. But I've seen it too often to deny the reality of it.
To sum up my points here: first, the comments about L4 working for one, when it's not working for another are not unhelpful, per se, if such comments are part of an effort to provide genuine help. To inform a person that the issue he/she may see as a design issue, may be another issue altogether, is a helpful step in problem solving. Second, problem solving isn't always the primary reason people post, and it's helpful to tailor our responses to the tone of the person responding, not merely the content. Maybe, if it's not clear in the post, we should adopt the strategy of asking if the person wants help/advice before offering it.
BTW, I don't think that has anything to do with modernism/post-modernism. It has to do with sociology and particularly communication theory.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard, if you substituted a VW micro-bus (an updated version which I drive) for the Ford Fiesta, I think you'd have a better point. I can't count how many L4 users start out their problem description saying that their PC has no issues with any other software except L4. And indeed that is my experience, L4 being my only problem child and after a year and a half of use, remaining my only problem child. So others' suggestions to get a real computer or turn off various L4 features ignores that I don't need another computer for my other software, nor do I need to turn off key features of my other software. The more likely culprit is my 'VW micro-bus'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
Richard, if you substituted a VW micro-bus (an updated version which I drive) for the Ford Fiesta, I think you'd have a better point. I can't count how many L4 users start out their problem description saying that their PC has no issues with any other software except L4. And indeed that is my experience, L4 being my only problem child and after a year and a half of use, remaining my only problem child. So others' suggestions to get a real computer or turn off various L4 features ignores that I don't need another computer for my other software, nor do I need to turn off key features of my other software. The more likely culprit is my 'VW micro-bus'.
Well, if you're using your VW microbus to tow a 2 ton trailer, the problem is that you're using the wrong machine for the task, even if the VW works just fine for picking up your groceries. And, though I'm surprised that folks think L4 should work just fine on a tablet or mini PC, with less than half the computing power of an off-the-shelf laptop (as if L4 was simply an environment for reading books). But I generally stay out of such discussions.
But there are many people on these forums who have very, similar hardware, well within L4 specifications, and yet have very different experiences with Logos4. For them, it is very frustrating that L4 seems to work better for some with a tablet or mini PC. To me, these are the most interesting cases, since it's possible that by pursuing them, we could find bottle-necks that could be addressed in someway (either by L4 program design, or, more likely, by identified changes that could be made on user systems).
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Not to mention the scenario where a user is flaming mad because L4 is useless and needs a supercomputer to run...only to find out a week later that some system setting or some rogue piece of software that was unrelated to L4 was the culprit...
it's happened more than once. ....so I try and rule that out...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Denise Barnhart said:
I can't count how many L4 users start out their problem description saying that their PC has no issues with any other software except L4.
One thing I have learned from the forums and personal experience is that the performance of L4 on an old XP PC is satisfactory much of the time for most of the people. Until recently my "unusable" performance was limited to prayer lists. However, my note files recently hit the size threshold necessary for me to experience "unusable" performance on notes. In order to report the problem correctly to Logos we need the stories both of those who have problems and those who don't.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
However, my note files recently hit the size threshold necessary for me to experience "unusable" performance on notes.
Interesting.
My note files are very small, and I don't have very many...that could possibly be why my machine's performance is acceptable, though an old machine....good to know.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Dr Gary Carr said:
Tom,
I regret how your experience with this forum has minimized your feelings. I cannot explain why this has happened, or defend any responses. I am an avid user of Logos and would like to help. How can I help you solve your concern?
[:)]
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