The Cloud
Comments
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JimT said:
I'd like to be able to install the current version to my laptop, load the license key file, and then scan the resource backups from a DVD, then import my content all without going online. Until/unless Logos4 can do that, I consider it broken in an important way, and something I'm really not happy about!
At one level, you still can. You can back up your appdata directories, and not need us to restore to a new machine.
You can even go to Libronix.net and request that your license file be emailed to you (in Logos 3 format, but still useful, and we still use the same license system underneath).
We just believe that centralized license management is a better convenience to users, easier to manage, and less likely to be blatantly abused. (You can still steal and copy licenses, but it's more of a hassle now. In Logos 3, where you could just back up and restore, we had users at some schools and churches not only copying and sharing their licenses, but reselling "click and install" disks with the stolen licenses. One user would even give you Scholar's Gold and install it on your laptop for a flat fee.)
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MJ. Smith said:
Another case where our assumptions led to different expectations. With the changes occurring in technology I expected an XML product using a native XML database and a semantic mapping behind the indexing.
Logos 3 used all XML files, and many were open and user accessible. Very few people bothered to use them, though, so we went to higher-performance binary formats that are also less vulnerable to being "broken".
MJ. Smith said:I expected more text analysis tools and more sophisticated linguistic visual tools.
I think the new syntax search UI and Passage Analysis features start to deliver this.
MJ. Smith said:For the user interface I expected more ability to work on collaborative projects.
Coming. It's very cool.
MJ. Smith said:I also hoped for a more graphic and template (graphic organizer) approach to notes and more user-generated tagging/indexing.
The sentence diagrammer, coming soon, is essentially a tool for visual note taking. You can use it for more than just diagrams.
We may not have everything you wanted, but I do think we're heading in your direction!
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Bob Pritchett said:
We may not have everything you wanted, but I do think we're heading in your direction!
I agree - and in some areas you already exceed what had been my expectations.[:)] And I was painfully aware that I was one of the few people creating files in an XML editor.
Bob Pritchett said:The sentence diagrammer, coming soon, is essentially a tool for visual note taking. You can use it for more than just diagrams.
I suspected this might be true and am anxious to see how it fits into my needs.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:JimT said:
I'd like to be able to install the current version to my laptop, load the license key file, and then scan the resource backups from a DVD, then import my content all without going online. Until/unless Logos4 can do that, I consider it broken in an important way, and something I'm really not happy about!
At one level, you still can ...
... go to Libronix.net and request that your license file be emailed to you (in Logos 3 format, but still useful, and we still use the same license system underneath).
Thanks Bob!!!
I did not know this was possible. When I had seen other messages about getting an emailed license file, I assumed I had to make an International phone call and stay on hold for a while, then ask someone. [:(] Its great to see its automatic, and I can do this after any package upgrade or purchase.
(As to your comments about outright theft that has gone on, words fail me and I must hold back from swearing about people that would do that with the Logos products. I understand the need for Logos to protect the company IP, income model and rights of the publishers.)
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Matthew C Jones said:
What to say?? When I was a young man I saw lots of evil in this world
I think it's still important to recognize the evil in the world, and do what you can... Knowing, first of all, that you're not going to "take evil down." Daniel didn't look at his situation, and say, "well, there's nothing I can do, so why bother to fight the evil here?" Neither did Joseph--one of the people I admire most in the whole of the Scriptures. This goes down the road of philosophy a little, but I'll ramble for a sec--I don't think we're here to win. I think we're here to show up and fight the good fight. Sometimes that means knowing your limits--I can't ever be a manager in a large company, it's beyond my limits. Being a techie, and trying to influence those around me for Christ--that I can do. Pointing out to those around me where we can fight, that I can do, as well.
Will we win in the here and now--or even in the future? No. God will. Does that mean we should give up? I don't see any reason to.
[quote]It is your response to the real threats that I think is misdirected. Logos is one of the precious pearls in this evil world. I would hate to deny fellow Christians the "medicine" they need because it is dispensed at a hospital. Our enemy is strong. We don't need any losses from friendly fire. Please continue educating others and warning them of danger. But do not mistake our friends at Logos for the enemy.
I don't think anyone at Logos is "the enemy." If I did, I wouldn't have spent three or four hours helping a professor get started with it. If I did, I wouldn't have recommended it to a ton of people at work. If I did, I wouldn't be working to get a Logos demo out to my church and seminary...
So don't take my fussing about privacy the wrong way. Just understand that I start from a different place than most, and different default setting. And many other people--maybe too late--are starting to wake up to this issue at large. As much as anything else, I don't want to see Logos caught in that maelstrom. It's not a healthy place to be.
Russ
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Bob Pritchett said:
You can even go to Libronix.net ...
Cool! I didn't know about that site. Found some interesting stuff there:
A list of all Logos publishing partners: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0
A list of all past products produced by said publishing partners: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners2a
They stopped updating the site around 2007, so it's stale info, but of interest for historical reasons, or for anyone seeking out old gems that are no longer published but might be available through the second hand market.
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Russ White said:
So don't take my fussing about privacy the wrong way.
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I mistook your passion for anger.
Russ White said:Does that mean we should give up? I don't see any reason to.
I am not advocating anybody surrender. I certainly won't. I just didn't want to see Christians tearing down something good. Remember, Israel did stone many of the prophets God sent. (Hmm..... Could Russ White be another messenger sent by God to warn of danger?? Maybe I better put down the stone I'm holding. [:$] )
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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One thing that has been mentioned, but not truly explored, is whether the Cloud will replace local storage completely. Not just for Logos' resources and data. But completely. Eveything. Some years ago Oracle tried and failed to introduce just this concept with its Net PC, or whatever they called it.
It's easy for us to take a parochial view and decide that the Cloud could cope with the sizeable, but limited, amound of resources that Logos offers. But what if, as Bob said, the cloud is the future of consumer applications.
One of my hobbies is digital photography using, by today's standards, a relatively modest 8MP digital SLR. To achieve maximum quality I use raw mode (the camera's own native image format) and process each image as a tiff file. What that means is this - each image is about 9MB before processing and 48MB after processing. The current set of digital SLRs and high end point and shoots, such as the Panasonic LX3 and the Canon G11 produce even bigger files. And the trend is going upwards all the time.
But it doesn't end there. If I then use Photsop Elements (or its big brother Photoshop CS) and start using what are know as layers the image can grow in size dramatically. As a bare minimum I will save the original raw image and the Photoshopped final version. But where will I store it? I currently have about 1TB of digital images, stored on various external disks, including backups stored away from home to insure against loss.
Now, imagine that the cloud takes over and PC's no longer support local storage. How long will it take to upload my image collection? Let's say I have broadband running at 50Mb (which is the best my broadband supplier currently offers). 50Mb is 50 mega bits per second or about 6 megabtyes a second. How long will my current 1TB of images take to upload? A bare minimum of 46 hours. The reality would be much, much greater as max throughput is rarely achieved and uploads are usually throttled back. I think my bandwidth providers would cut me off long before I got near to completing the upload. But my 1TB of images is a very modest amount compared to many serious amatuer photographers I know. And, as for professionals? The numbers are off the chart.
But that's just for the initial upload. Even if I got past that, or sent a hard disk full of images to Amazon for them to install to the Cloud manually, every time I want to edit a picture I would have to find it, download it into the editing application and then re-upload it. The extra time taken to just access the cloud is going to mount up and up and be unnacceptable.
And then there's returning from a photoshoot with hundreds (or thousands) of new images and having to go through all this uploading and downloading. No way. If you visit photography forums such as Naturescapes.net you'll find that people are doing everything they can to save time with their current, local storage method. Mention offline storage to them (and this idea has cropped up fairly recently) and the answer is always 'forget it'.
And then there's the cost. How much would a cloud provider charge me for 1TB of permanent storage? Amazon's lower price is, offering 99.99% durability) 10 cents per GB per month. 1TB therefore will cost me $100 a month. Every month. For life. Yeah, right. And every time I take a picture it will cost me. And cost me. And cost me.
This whole example is to illustrate the impact that a 'cloud only' scenario would have on other groups of users. Photographers are a prime example because their storage demands are high and getting higher all the time, with no signs of this abating. Indeed, as cameras keep offering more tech for less $$$, more and more 'casual' snappers will produce pictures that consume more and more storage space. This trend wont end because camera manufactures have to keep improving the tech to keep people upgrading. And unlike the internet, which cannot be improved overnight, camera tech progresses in leaps and bounds. There is no way for the internet to catch up, let alone keep up with it.
How does this impact Logos? Simple. Local storage has to exist and will exist for years, if not, decades to come.
I would feel much happier if Logos were to commit to supporting local storage whilst it remains available. Not just for notes or prayer lists. But for resources. Especially resources. Then I can rest assured that my investment will always be available to me wherever I am in the world (assuming I have my laptop with me).
Sorry about the length of this post and the rather non-Logos related information. But the cloud is bigger than Logos and Logos needs to see it in a context bigger than their use of it and their expectations of it.
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Andy Bell said:
One thing that has been mentioned, but not truly explored, is whether the Cloud will replace local storage completely.
I don't think anyone can look that far into the future with any degree of accuracy. My personality is such that I would be concerned if Logos made any commitments now as to what L5 will be. I dislike certainty where none can truly exist. They may plan for multiple possibilities but they shouldn't constrain themselves.
Andy Bell said:Local storage has to exist and will exist for years, if not, decades to come.
Exactly.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andy Bell said:
Sorry about the length of this post and the rather non-Logos related information.
I appreciate the information. Thank you.
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[quote]But that's just for the initial upload. Even if I got past that, or sent
a hard disk full of images to Amazon for them to install to the Cloud
manually, every time I want to edit a picture I would have to find it,
download it into the editing application and then re-upload it. The
extra time taken to just access the cloud is going to mount up and up
and be unnacceptable.I just thought this was too funny:
[quote]Amazon's
cloud storage service has unveiled a brand new way to quickly move
giant amounts of data to the cloud,
one so technologically advanced that it actually allows customers to
"bypass the Internet."What is this new technology, you may ask? It's called FedEx. For
large amounts of data, terabytes, it could actually take
weeks to upload to Amazon's servers over the Internet. So Amazon is
now letting customers put a storage device in the mail
and Amazon will take care of the data transfer within its own high-speed
internal network.Oh, my...
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
[quote]But that's just for the initial upload. Even if I got past that, or sent a hard disk full of images to Amazon for them to install to the Cloud manually, every time I want to edit a picture I would have to find it, download it into the editing application and then re-upload it. The extra time taken to just access the cloud is going to mount up and up and be unnacceptable.
I just thought this was too funny:
[quote]Amazon's cloud storage service has unveiled a brand new way to quickly move giant amounts of data to the cloud, one so technologically advanced that it actually allows customers to "bypass the Internet."
What is this new technology, you may ask? It's called FedEx. For large amounts of data, terabytes, it could actually take weeks to upload to Amazon's servers over the Internet. So Amazon is now letting customers put a storage device in the mail and Amazon will take care of the data transfer within its own high-speed internal network.
Oh, my...
:-)
Russ
Yeah, mail has long been a more efficient way of transferring large amounts of data. That's why Netflix still is so successful.
Reminds me of the old days back at Microsoft when we had a slow and not-very-fault-tolerant internal network. Sometimes it was easier to just take a floppy disk with you a couple doors down to the server room and copy files off of it. A coworker of mine said they used to call that "sneaker-net" in his old workplace.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I agree with your caution over most subjects on your website. I appreciate your extensive knowledge regarding things IT. If Bob Pritchett gives us offline storage of personal data I think we can all thank the shrill clamouring of a handful of "privacy kooks" (--used affectionately here.)
It is your response to the real threats that I think is misdirected. Logos is one of the precious pearls in this evil world. I would hate to deny fellow Christians the "medicine" they need because it is dispensed at a hospital. Our enemy is strong. We don't need any losses from friendly fire. Please continue educating others and warning them of danger. But do not mistake our friends at Logos for the enemy.
There are other concerns than simply (!!) privacy for our information. Under the current repressive administration it is possible that we may not be able to access any of our information stored in the "cloud."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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A month ago I would have argued with you. Today I have to agree. Our utility companies just upgraded our service with "smart meters."They can now remotely disconnect our electricity and gas at the push of a button. While upgrading the neighborhood we were without power for serveral hours. No phones, computers, internet or A/C. It was a stark reminder how we are at the mercy of powerful people who may someday be merciless.George Somsel said:There are other concerns than simply (!!) privacy for our information. Under the current repressive administration it is possible that we may not be able to access any of our information stored in the "cloud."
Keep your Libronix system tuned up just in case. [co]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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==
Despite how attractive cloud computing can sound as an outsourcing
option, there's widespread concern that it presents a security
and legal minefield for businesses and government. Cloud service
providers often cultivate an aura of secrecy about data
centers and operations, claiming this stance improves their security
even if it leaves everyone else in the dark.==
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/070610-cloud-computing-secrecy.html?hpg1=bn
For anyone who's interested in keeping up with what IT folks think about the cloud.
:-)
Russ
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Once again I commit the ultimate faux paux and reply to my own post.
Matthew C Jones said:It was a stark reminder how we are at the mercy of powerful people who may someday be merciless.
I was in no way thinking of anyone at Logos HQ in Bellingham, WA when I posted this. I was thinking more of somebody at HQ in the other Washington on the east coast.
Having just installed Libronix Version 3 back on my laptop, I eagerly look forward to using the cloud to sync & download my newly installed resources to my Logos 4 computer.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
It was a stark reminder how we are at the mercy of powerful people who may someday be merciless.
You know, I was amused rather than offended until you explained yourself. Which is why I know better than to explain why. [:#]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Are you now offended?MJ. Smith said:You know, I was amused rather than offended until you explained yourself. Which is why I know better than to explain why.
Let's muddy the waters a little:
There are three branches of the US Federal Government. Each seems to think they are the boss.
Who is really in control?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Is the answerJesus? [;)]Matthew C Jones said:
Are you now offended?MJ. Smith said:You know, I was amused rather than offended until you explained yourself. Which is why I know better than to explain why.
Let's muddy the waters a little:
There are three branches of the US Federal Government. Each seems to think they are the boss.
Who is really in control?
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Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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The question is:
Who ate the last cookie??
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Andy Bell said:
How does this impact Logos? Simple. Local storage has to exist and will exist for years, if not, decades to come.
I completely agree.
I'm O.K. with the cloud being a source of back-up... NOT as the sole source of access to resources... Logos isn't the only place I've been seeing that is taking a 'hit' from users who want local storage. (yes I know we're not 100% cloud YET)... I've seen a back-lash across the board from the average user over a broad spectrum.
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I think the answer to that one is Santa.David Paul said:The question is:
Who ate the last cookie??
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Don't let the church lady hear you say that...
[6]
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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