Happy or Blessed - which do you prefer?
I was reading today in the NRSV and Psalm 1:1 begins with "Happy". I really like the NRSV, but something about using "happy" instead of "blessed" sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard. I am old fashion and traditional, but it just seems like "blessed" gives a fuller meaning to the text than "happy."
I just wondered what others prefered?
Thanks.
Comments
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1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, and standeth not in the way of sinners, and sitteth not in the seat of scorners;DARBY1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers:ASV1 BLESSED (HAPPY, fortunate, prosperous, and enviable) is the man who walks and lives not in the counsel of the ungodly [following their advice, their plans and purposes], nor stands [submissive and inactive] in the path where sinners walk, nor sits down [to relax and rest] where the scornful [and the mockers] gather.AMP1 God blesses those people who refuse evil advice and won’t follow sinners or join in sneering at God.CEV1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;ESV1 Blessed is the person who does not follow the advice of wicked people, take the path of sinners, or join the company of mockers.GW1 Happy are those who reject the advice of evil people, who do not follow the example of sinners or join those who have no use for God.GNT1 How happy is the man who does not follow the advice of the wicked, or take the path of sinners, or join a group of mockers!HCSB1 BLESSED is the man who hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the chair of pestilence:D-R1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.KJV1 Oh, the joys of those who do not follow evil men’s advice, who do not hang around with sinners, scoffing at the things of God.The Living Bible1 How well God must like you— you don’t hang out at Sin Saloon, you don’t slink along Dead-End Road, you don’t go to Smart-Mouth College.The Message1 How blessed is the one who does not follow the advice of the wicked, or stand in the pathway with sinners, or sit in the assembly of scoffers!NET1 Happy those who do not follow the counsel of the wicked, Nor go the way of sinners, nor sit in company with scoffers.NABWRNT1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!NASB951 Happy are those who don’t listen to the wicked, who don’t go where sinners go, who don’t do what evil people do.NCV1 Blessed is the one who obeys the law of the Lord. He doesn’t follow the advice of evil people. He doesn’t make a habit of doing what sinners do. He doesn’t join those who make fun of the Lord and his law.NIrV1 Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers,NIV1 Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.NIV841 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;NKJV1 Oh, the joys of those who do not follow the advice of the wicked, or stand around with sinners, or join in with mockers.NLT1 Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked, or take the path that sinners tread, or sit in the seat of scoffers;NRSV1 PSALM 1 THE PSALMS: BOOK 1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;RSVCE1 BLESSED is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of evil men.The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament1 Blessed are those who do not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers,TNIV1 O the happiness of that one, who Hath not walked in the counsel of the wicked. And in the way of sinners hath not stood, And in the seat of scorners hath not sat;YLT0
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Peace, Ron! *smile*
I am NOT happy with "happy." Blessed by all means! Pronounced: Bless-ed!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I've always thought happiness depended to some extent on circumstances.
Blessedness depends only on God.
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
An alternative translation/interpertation reads "To
be envied is the person who does not walk in the evil doers'
counsel!” (pg
681, An introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax Bruce K. Waltke and M.
O'Connor Eisenbrauns: Winona Lake, Indiana 1990)However, I think you are justified in your preference of Blessed over happy. The
BDB and HALOT lexicons agree in having both happy and blessed as appropriate translations for אַשְׁרֵי
and
as a bonus Hollday lists 'fortune' as well.As for your NRSV according, to a query I just ran(and assuming I didn't make a mistake):
The
NRSV translates אַשְׁרֵי
(ashrei) as
'blessings' in Psalm 144:15 and in Isaiah 30:18 as 'blessed'However,
in 40 other verses it renders אַשְׁרֵי
as
'Happy' It would be fun to know what the reasons where behind their translation decisions.Even more interesting אֹשֶׁר
appears
44 times in various forms in the BHS/WHM 4.2But,
with the addition of the Maqqef(a mark that looks like a hyphen), אַשְׁרֵי
only
appears twice(Ps 1:1& 112:1) according to WIVU. Like a hyphen a Maqqef merges two or more words together, but unlike a hyphen the Maqqef causes individual words to lose their accents and to be left with only one. One, is left to wonder if there were any interpretative reasons for the Maqqef, or if the reading/chanting tradition of the Tiberian massoretes dictated a need for the addition of the Maqqef?Nice question.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I think we sometimes forget (I know I do) that the meaning of the word happy
contains much more than it is commonly used for in colloquial speech,
especially if you look at a historical dictionary like the Century
Dictionary. It fully encompasses the meaning of blessed in it:
See, even the KJV uses "happy" in this sense (as in Psalm 144:15), as do many others. Ironically, some who used happy for Ps 1:1 use blessed here (e.g., GW).
1901 ASV | Ps 144:15 Happy is the people that is in such a case; Yea, happy is the people whose God is Jehovah.
AV | Ps 144:15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
AV 1873 | Ps 144:15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: Yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
CJB | Ps 144:15 How happy the people who live in such conditions! How happy the people whose God is ADONAI!
Wordstudy KJV | Ps 144:15 Happy is that people, [that is in such a case:] yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
CEV | Ps 144:15 Our LORD and our God, you give these blessings to all who worship you.
EMPH | Ps 144:15 How happy the people that is in such a case! How happy the people that hath Yahweh for its God!
ESV | Ps 144:15 Blessed are the people to whom such blessings fall! Blessed are the people whose God is the LORD!
GW | Ps 144:15 Blessed are the people who have these blessings! Blessed are the people whose God is the LORD!
GNB | Ps 144:15 Happy is the nation of whom this is true; happy are the people whose God is the LORD!
HCSB | Ps 144:15 Happy are the people with such blessings. Happy are the people whose God is Yahweh.
D-R | Ps 143:15 They have called the people happy, that hath these things: but happy is that people whose God is the Lord.
KJV 1900 | Ps 144:15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: Yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
The Message | Ps 144:15 How blessed the people who have all this! How blessed the people who have GOD for God!
NET | Ps 144:15 How blessed are the people who experience these things! How blessed are the people whose God is the LORD!
NAB | Ps 144:15 Happy the people so blessed; happy the people whose God is the LORD.
NASB95 | Ps 144:15 How blessed are the people who are so situated; How blessed are the people whose God is the LORD!
NCV | Ps 144:15 Happy are those who are like this; happy are the people whose God is the LORD.
NIrV | Ps 144:15 Blessed are the people about whom all of those things are true. Blessed are the people whose God is the LORD.
NIV | Ps 144:15 Blessed is the people of whom this is true; blessed is the people whose God is the LORD.
NIV84 | Ps 144:15 Blessed are the people of whom this is true; blessed are the people whose God is the LORD.
NKJV | Ps 144:15 Happy are the people who are in such a state; Happy are the people whose God is the LORD!
NLT | Ps 144:15 Yes, joyful are those who live like this! Joyful indeed are those whose God is the LORD.
NRSV | Ps 144:15 Happy are the people to whom such blessings fall; happy are the people whose God is the LORD.
NRSVCE | Ps 144:15 Happy are the people to whom such blessings fall; happy are the people whose God is the LORD.
RSV | Ps 144:15 Happy the people to whom such blessings fall! Happy the people whose God is the LORD!
Tanakh | Ps 144:15 Happy the people who have it so; happy the people whose God is the LORD.
TNIV | Ps 144:15 Blessed is the people of whom this is true; blessed is the people whose God is the LORD.
YLT | Ps 144:15 O the happiness of the people that is thus, O the happiness of the people whose God is Jehovah!Basically, the two words can often be used interchangeably if you keep in mind the full breadth of meaning of both of them. Indeed, blessed contains some meanings that we would not want to impart to these verses:
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Rosie Perera said:
I think we sometimes forget (I know I do) that the meaning of the word happy
contains much more than it is commonly used for in colloquial speech,
especially if you look at a historical dictionary like the Century
Dictionary.So, then is "Happy" from the root word 'hap' with a meaning like luck and/or happenstance?How, was 'Hap' used originally?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:Rosie Perera said:
I think we sometimes forget (I know I do) that the meaning of the word happy
contains much more than it is commonly used for in colloquial speech,
especially if you look at a historical dictionary like the Century
Dictionary.So, then is "Happy" from the root word 'hap' with a meaning like luck and/or happenstance?How, was 'Hap' used originally?
Yes. The Oxford English Dictionary is the best source for historical uses of the word happy:
happy, adj.
Pronunciation: /ˈhæpɪ/
Etymology: < hap
n.1 + -y
suffix1.†1.
Coming or happening by chance; fortuitous; chance. Obs. rare.1513 G. Douglas tr.
Virgil Æneid v. Prol. 3 The
wery hunter to fynd his happy pray.a1676
M. Hale Primitive Originat.
Mankind (1677) iii. ii. 258 Any happy concourse of Atoms.2.
a.
Having good 'hap' or fortune; lucky, fortunate; favoured by lot, position, or
other external circumstance.c1440
Promp. Parv. 226/2
Happy, fortunatus.1488 (1478) Hary Actis & Deidis Schir William Wallace
(Adv.) i. l. 376 Happy he was, tuk fysche haboundanle.1489 (1380) J.
Barbour Bruce (Adv.) i. 121
Wys men sayis he is happy Yat be oyer will him chasty.c1540
Destr. Troy 11217
He is happy, þat a harme hastely amendes.1546 J. Heywood Prov. (1867) 7 Happy man happy
dole.1575 G. Gascoigne Fruites
of Warre lxxvi, in Posies sig. Ii,
He‥Weenes yet at last to make a happie
hande By bloudie warre.1719 D. Defoe Life Robinson Crusoe 183, I was
so happy as not to be thereabouts at that Time.1741 C. Middleton Hist. Life Cicero I. vi. 495 The
happy set of liberty, plenty, and letters.1895 L. J. Smith in Law Times Rep. LXXIII. 692/1 A
testator in the happy position of having‥realty both in Lancashire and in America.†b.
Blessed, beatified. Obs. of happy memory, a phrase conventionally
applied to the deceased.1526 Bible (Tyndale) James i. 25 He
shalbe happi in his dede.a1557
J. Cheke tr. Gospel St. Matthew
(1843) v. 3 Happi be ye beggars in sprijt.1604 E. Grimeston tr.
J. de Acosta Nat. & Morall Hist. Indies
i. iv. 15 As the happy Chrysostome hath learnedly spoken.1611 Bible (A.V.) John xiii. 17 If yee
know these things, happy are ye if ye doe them.1693 Humours & Conversat. Town 69
To the Assigns of Tom. Saffold, of happy Memory.1700 T. Brown Amusem. Serious & Comical vii. 84
Prettier than Dony of Happy Memory.c.
happy land n. a prosperous, favourable, etc., land; spec.,
heaven.1787 S. Stennett in J.
Rippon Selection of Hymns 584,
I stand, And cast a wishful Eye, To Canaan's fair and happy Land.1806 T. G. Fessenden Democracy Unveiled (ed. 3) I. ii. 85
Such principles, alas, will flood Columbia's 'happy land' with blood.1845 C. H. Bateman Children's Hymn-bk. 36 There is a
happy land Far far away.1893 M. Danvers Grantham Myst. xiii, The old 'un
will soon join the young 'un in the happy land.1902 Daily Chron. 6 Feb. 5/2 During
the great‥strike‥a rhyme went round beginning 'There is a happy land, far,
far way [sic], Where no blacklegs ever go'.1943 M. Kantor (title)
Happy land.1959 I. Opie & P.
Opie Lore & Lang. Schoolchildren
xvii. 365 There is a happy land by the 'Red School' Where Miss
Macdonald stands, preaching like a fool.3.
Characterized by or involving good fortune; fortunate, lucky; prosperous;
favourable, propitious. (Now used only in certain collocations, in which there
is association with senses 4a
or 5a)
Also in certain familiar or conventional special collocations: happy day,
wedding day; happy days!, a drinking toast; similarly, esp. in aviation
circles, happy landings!; happy ending, an ending in a novel, play, etc., in
which the characters acquire spouses, money, do not die, etc.; happy event, the
birth of a baby; happy pair, an engaged or newly wedded couple; happy release,
(esp.) death; many happy returns: see return
n. 2b.1340 R. Rolle Pricke of Conscience 1334
Continuel happy commyng Of worldly gudes, es a takenyng Of þe dampnacion þat
sal be.1434 R. Misyn tr. R.
Rolle Mending of Life 130 A
Ioyfull hap & happy ioy.a1533
Ld. Berners tr. Bk. Duke Huon of
Burdeux (1882-7) xlvii. 157 It was happy for them that the
wether was so fayre.1576 A. Fleming tr. G.
Macropedius in Panoplie Epist. 378
What king in his adventures hath had more happie successe?1634 T. Herbert Relation Trav. 2 In lesse then
one houre‥we
enjoyed a happie blast.1667 Milton Paradise Lost iv. 534 Live while
ye may, Yet happie pair.1697 Dryden Alexander's Feast i. 1 The Lovely
Thais by his side, Sate like a blooming Eastern Bride‥Happy, happy, happy Pair!1702 C. Sedley (title)
The happy pair: or, a poem on matrimony.1734 W. Snelgrave Acct. Guinea 277 It proved very
happy for me.1740 S. Richardson Pamela II. 151 May I hope, my
Pamela, said he, that next Thursday shall certainly be the happy Day?1789 G. Parker Life's Painter xiv. 126 (title)
The next song is intitled and call'd The Happy Pair.1789 Lady Newdigate Let.
2 June in A. E. Newdigate-Newdegate Cheverels
(1898) vi. 84 Many happy returns of ye day to us my Dr
Love.1821 C. Lamb All
Fools' Day in Elia 1st Ser.,
Many happy returns of this day to you.1839 Dickens Nicholas Nickleby xiv. 124 Many
happy returns of the day, my dear.1839 R. I. Murchison Silurian Syst. i. xxxvi. 489 When
one of those happy accidents occurs.[1848 E. C. Gaskell Mary Barton I. xi. 205 So
anticipating a happy ending to the course of her love, however distant it might
be, she fell asleep.]1850 Thackeray Pendennis II. xxxvii. 357 The
ardent Foker pressed onwards the happy day.1850 Dickens Poor
Man's Tale of Patent in Househ. Words
19 Oct. 74/1 His wife unfortunately took to drinking‥before happy release in every point of view.1861 Dickens Great Expectations I. xi. 186
'This is my birthday, Pip'. I was going to wish her many happy returns.1864 Dickens Mrs.
Lirriper's Legacy in All Year Round
1 Dec. 7/2 Then I shouldn't have the agonies of trying to
understand him which was a happy release.1884 H. James in Longman's Mag. Sept. 506 Another
would say that it depends for a 'happy ending' on a distribution at the last of
prizes, pensions, husbands, wives, babies, millions, appended paragraphs and
cheerful remarks.1913 G. B. Shaw Quintessence of Ibsenism (rev. ed.) 192
The substitution of a sentimental happy ending for the famous last scene.1929 E. Bowen Joining Charles 122 She was such
a good soul-it seemed quite a happy release.1934 Evening News 25 July 4/5 Ronnie
swallowed half the whisky.‥
'Happy landings, Phyllis‥dear!'‥ The powder left his fingers, missed the glass.1934 R. S. Lambert For Filmgoers Only 68 'Happy
endings' are in much greater evidence on the screen than, for instance, in the
play.1934 E. Wharton Backward Glance vii. 147 The
American public always wants‥a
tragedy with a happy ending.1935 G. Greene Basement Room 106 'Your health,
my dear. You look younger than ever.' 'Happy days,' Amy said.1938 G. Greene Brighton Rock v. v. 213 'When's
the happy day?' Cubitt said and they all smiled.1940 E. Partridge Dict. Clichés 100 Happy event,
a or the, the birth of a child; esp. the first in a family: mostly
lower-middle class: from ca. 1880.1946 T. Rattigan Winslow Boy i. 29 Happy pair, I
think, is the phrase that is eluding you.1951 J. B. Priestley Festival at Farbridge ii. i. 199 'Happy
days!' cried Mobbs. 'Cheers!' said the Major gloomily.1953 P. Frankau Winged Horse iii. ii. 199 The
glass lifted. 'Happy Landings,' Carey said.1957 N. Frye Anat. Crit. 104 Most students of
literature prefer to keep in the middle distance‥run-of-the-mill Elizabethan sonnets and love lyrics,‥nineteenth-century happy-ending novels.1960 Times 9 Jan. 7/7 The further
analysis of 'happy events' that occurred in 1959‥reveals 7,070 births.1966 T. Walsh Face of Enemy (1968) 62 Another
drink was handed to him.‥
'Happy days, old boy.'1969 Times 20 Mar. 16/2 Aunt Juju, in
her harping upon 'happy events'‥knows
more about life and death than Hedda.4.
a.
Having a feeling of great pleasure or content of mind, arising from
satisfaction with one's circumstances or condition; also in weakened sense:
Glad, pleased.1525 Ld. Berners tr. J.
Froissart Chron. II. clxxxvii.
[clxxxiv.] 572 Therfore it is an olde prouerbe: he is nat poore yt
is happy.1562 J. Heywood Prov. & Epigr. (1867) 145
Better be happy then wise.1640 J. Shirley Coronation v. sig. I2, Heaven
created him, To make her happy.a1699
A. Halkett Autobiogr.
(1875) 5 Resolved to leave England since he could not be Hapy in
itt.a1732
J. Gay New Song Similes in Songs
(1784) II. 117 Full as an egg was I with glee, And happy as a king.1773 in Wilkes' Corr. (1805) IV. 161, I
am happy at your liking Eastbourn so well.1785 W. Paley Moral & Polit. Philos. (1830) i. vi. 15
In strictness, any condition may be denominated happy, in which the amount or
aggregate of pleasure exceeds that of pain.1847 F. Marryat Children of New Forest I. xi. 205
We will do all we can to make you happy.1891 O. W. Holmes Lett. Oct., I am glad to hear
that you are well and busy, which is, I think, the same as being happy.b.
Freq. with neg., as not (at all), not entirely, not quite happy about (or with)
, usually indicating substantial dissatisfaction. Cf. not
adv. 10b.1947 People 22 June 7/5 The receiving
club were not at all happy about this.1967 N. Freeling Strike Out 21, I dropped a
monstrous clanger, letting anybody see I wasn't happy, but‥I'm still not happy.1971 Guardian 2 Dec. 11/2 She says,
with some delicacy, that the studio, Paramount, was 'not happy with it' and
failed to promote it.5.
a.
Successful in performing what the circumstances require; apt, dexterous;
felicitous.happy dispatch: see dispatch
n. 4, hara-kiri
n. happy warrior, applied conventionally to an excellent soldier; also fig.a1400
(1325) Cursor Mundi
(Fairf. 14) l. 3505 He was happy to gammys sere of beste of wode of
fowels of riuer.?a1400 Morte Arth. 3878 Hardyeste of
hande, happyeste in armes.a1533
Ld. Berners tr. A. de Guevara Golden
Bk. M. Aurelius (1546) sig. G viij, He was apt and happie
in armes.a1616
Shakespeare Two Gentlemen of
Verona (1623) iv. i. 33 Haue you the Tongues? Val. My
youthfull trauaile, therein made me happy.1715 R. Bentley Serm. Popery x. 338 Our English
Translators have not been very happy in their version of this Passage.1738 Swift Compl. Coll. Genteel Conversat. p. iii,
One Gentleman is happy at a Reply; another excels in a Rejoinder.1806 Wordsworth Char. Happy Warrior 1 Who is the
happy Warrior? Who is he That every man in arms should wish to be?1884 G. Shaw-Lefevre in
19th Cent. Jan. 37 The
artist‥has been most happy in depicting the
parents reposing in death.1915 D. O. Barnett Let. 1 July 200 The 'happy warrior'
who did the deed is in my platoon, one Finlay, and his hair is red.1924 F. D. Roosevelt in
N.Y. Times 27 June 4/3 He [sc.
Alfred E. Smith] is the 'Happy Warrior' of the political battle~field.1959 Listener 12 Nov. 843/3 Ernest
Jones was a happy warrior.b.
Of actions, etc.: Characterized by fitness for the circumstance or occasion;
appropriate, fitting, felicitous.a1400
(1325) Cursor Mundi
(Fairf. 14) l. 4677 Þorou his awen happy [Vesp. scel-wis, Gött.
witti] rede. he filled wiþ wine baþ quyte and rede.1598 Shakespeare Henry IV, Pt. 1 v. iv. 155 If a
lie may do thee grace, Ile guild it with the happiest termes I haue.a1616
Shakespeare Henry VI, Pt. 1
(1623) iii. iii. 1 Saint Dennis blesse this happy Stratageme.1662 E. Stillingfleet Origines Sacræ i. i. §8 The happy
use the Primitive learned Christians made of all those passages.1779 W. Cowper Let. 21 Sept. (1979) I. 304 The
Situation is happy, the Gardens elegantly disposed.1781 R. B. Sheridan Critic ii. i, A most happy
thought.1793 T. Beddoes Observ. Nature Demonstrative Evid. 82
His definition appears to me far from happy.1862 J. S. Mill Utilitarianism 84 This happy
thought was considered to get rid of the whole difficulty.1879 J. McCarthy Hist. our Own Times II. xxix. 391
No comparison could be more misleading or less happy.1898 N.E.D. at Happy, Mod.
No happier reply could have been given.0 -
Rosie Perera said:
Yes. The Oxford English Dictionary is the best source for historical uses of the word happy:
Thank, you for the speedy reply.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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[8] "Don't Worry, Be Happy!" [8]
Without delving deeply into the linguistic side of it my initial perception is I can choose to be happy, whereas I am an object of blessing.
I would rather be blessed than happy.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Well yes - to bless is a verb and there is no verbal form to hap with a similar meaning. I'll trying giving my grandson a goodnight happing instead of blessing and see what happens [or is that blessen] (besides hysterical laughter that is).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Two questions related (I hope to this topic)
I can see that being blessed by God is likely to make me happy.
But what does it mean to 'bless God' (eg Psalm 66 v 8)?
and
and earlier post made a point of pronunciation being 'bless - ed'
I can understand this aberration being needed to facilitate some poorly scanning hymns; but is there a more profound reason for making this point?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Hi Mike
Mike Binks said:But what does it mean to 'bless God' (eg Psalm 66 v 8)?
Some thoughts:
Finally, humans and angels may bless God (Ps. 134:1–2; 103:20). Scholars disagree concerning the significance of this type of blessing: can it signify the bestowal of favor or goodness upon God? The answer depends not only upon one’s view of ancient Israelite theology, but also upon one’s anthropological view of the ancient Israelites regarding the magical power of the speech act itself. Later scholarship suggests that most likely brk here denotes only the acts of worship, praise, or thanksgiving (Ps. 115:17–18).
David Noel Freedman, Allen C. Myers and Astrid B. Beck, Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, 192 (Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans, 2000).
When applied to God, the terms imply homage or adoration offered in gratitude (Gen. 24:48; Deut. 11:29; Ps. 66:8).
Allen C. Myers, The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, 162 (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1987).
Graham
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Mike Binks said:
Two questions related (I hope to this topic)
I can see that being blessed by God is likely to make me happy.
But what does it mean to 'bless God' (eg Psalm 66 v 8)?
Two different lemmas:אשרי and ברך. They belong to slightly different semantic domains. I don't think אשרי can refer to God. ברך can. אשרי is close to the meaning of "lucky": Someone who has done well. Someone who is well off. Someone who is in a good position.
ברך in its original sense is probably the transfer of some sort of power (vitality?) and the acknowledgement of one's superiority.
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Mike Binks said:
But what does it mean to 'bless God' (eg Psalm 66 v 8)?
One of the meanings of bless is "to honor as holy; to glorify" which is the sense in Psalm 66:8. This is from wordnik.com (my favorite wordie website):
Mike Binks said:and earlier post made a point of pronunciation being 'bless - ed'
I can understand this aberration being needed to facilitate some poorly scanning hymns; but is there a more profound reason for making this point?
Bless-ed pronounced as two syllables is the adjective; blessed pronounced as one syllable is the past tense/participle. Historically, the single syllable pronunciation (past tense/participle) was spelled blest. I'm not sure when the difference in pronouncing blessed as a single syllable came about, but it was sometimes spelled as bless'd when that was the desired pronunciation (as in a poem by Dryden in 1676 "T' augment the number of the Bless'd above."). The OED shows the first instance of the spelling blessed ca. 1410, but its examples don't show how things were pronounced, however it was probably two syllables back then, given the use of bless'd after that time.
From the Oxford English Dictionary:
"The past tense and pple. are now generally spelt blessed, though always pronounced
/blɛst/
in modern prose; the participle may be pronounced
/ˈblɛsɪd/
in verse, or liturgical reading. As an adj. blessed
/ˈblɛsɪd/
is now the regular prose form, but the archaic blest is frequent in verse, and traditional phrases as e.g. ‘the Isles of the Blest.’"In today's English, it would seem that single syllable blessed is the normal pronunciation but I can see why some people might prefer bless-ed for Bible reading. It's how we've grown used to hearing it read (especially in the Beatitudes), and it just sounds wrong any other way. There's nothing wrong with keeping to that tradition. Blest sounds too "clipped" somehow. But there's nothing deeper than just tradition behind the preference.
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Rosie Perera said:
(especially in the Beatitudes), and it just sounds wrong any other way. There's nothing wrong with keeping to that tradition. Blest sounds too "clipped" somehow. But there's nothing deeper than just tradition behind the preference.
I can not argue with any of this statement on factual points........However [:D] (bear with me)
In real life communication a colloquial usage trumps linguistics and proper grammar every time. It is probably a poor way to handle God's word, if we presume God would stick to the rules of grammar even knowing we would abandon the rules in our communication. (Could it be Eugene Peterson is on to something here?) Jesus met the woman at the well where she was at. He didn't argue with where she had been worshiping but communicated the gospel to her even though he was breaking the rules to speak with her at all.
When I read "Bless-ed" in lieu of "blest" I see a different status of the recipient of God's favor.
- The rain falls on the just & the unjust. All are "blest" by God with rain. Matthew 5:45
- But to be one who is "Bless-ed" in God's sight is a lot better position to be occupying when God closes the door on the Ark. Genesis 7:16
I've seen a t-shirt that proclaims "Jesus Loves You" followed by smaller words, "but I'm his favorite." This type of thinking can get us into trouble. But there is a difference between a believer who commits a sin during their life and an unbeliever who lives in a constant state of condemnation.
So is there not a deeper value of being "Bless-ed" over being just "blest?" I'm with Milford Charles Murray on this one.
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Bless-ed reminds me of Yosemite Sam. I'm not sure he even used that term, however. [8-|]
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Thank you all for your replies - I am now more knowledgeable if not wiser.
Thank you Rosie of patiently pointing out to me the multiple meanings of 'bless' - should have known to check this possibility.
I will confess to being stumped one evening in the bar when the question was posed and I didn't have an answer.
I will make one comment on tradition - and that is on the pronunciation of bless-ed. I have always pronounced it blessed and hearing pronounced the other way has always made the reader sound 'affected' to my ear. It just grates. I wonder how many visitors to the church would wonder if the person at the lectern can actually read?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Ronald Quick said:
something about using "happy" instead of "blessed" sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard
I feel the same.
On the other hand, "blessed" does generally translate baruch, so I can understand the wish to use another word here. The really ridiculous thing, though, is that even in Swedish, where we have two or three words for "blessed", they've still switched to "happy" in the most modern translation! One of many reasons I don't like it.
David Knoll said:ברך in its original sense is probably the transfer of some sort of power (vitality?) and the acknowledgement of one's superiority.
Doesn't baruch have the same stem as "knee"? Doesn't that indicate that "to bless God" is what you do when you (physically or mentally) kneel before Him?
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fgh said:
Doesn't baruch have the same stem as "knee"? Doesn't that indicate that "to bless God" is what you do when you (physically or mentally) kneel before Him?
This is not at all certain. HALOT doesn't think so (BDB agrees with you). Even if it were so was the verb derived from the noun or the other way around? Etymology is too complicated for me. My explanation was merely semantic.
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David Knoll said:
HALOT doesn't think so (BDB agrees with you).
There is nothing to "agree" with in this case. It was a genuine question rather than an opinion. My Hebrew isn't exactly at a level where I can have "opinions". [:)] And unfortunately I don't have HALOT yet, only CHALOT.
David Knoll said:Even if it were so was the verb derived from the noun or the other way around?
That, of course, is always the question... Though when it comes to something as abstract as "bless" and something as concrete as "knee" I suspect one can usually be pretty certain that the knee came first (unless, of course, there was an earlier word for "knee" that was later replaced with this one). I believe body parts are considered to be among the 100 or 200 most basic words in a language, and are used by linguists to determine how languages are related. Though now I'm getting uncomfortably far into MJ's area of expertise...
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fgh said:
I believe body parts are considered to be among the 100 or 200 most basic words in a language, and are used by linguists to determine how languages are related. Though now I'm getting uncomfortably far into MJ's area of expertise...
That is of course absolutely right but this etymology seems a bit fishy. I have no opinion in the matter. I would go with HALOT only out of fear of inventing a link where none really existed. In what we have before us it doesn't seem that blessing required kneeling down. Perhaps receiving a blessing? I have no idea. I can only deal with what I see before me.
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This is slightly off topic but it is still a question about Psalm 1:1:
The Breuer 1989 edition and as well as the Jerusalem Crown 2nd edition 2004 lack a Maqqef between the words Ashrei and ha-ish.Surprisingly,
neither Letteris' nor C.D. Ginsburg's Tanakh have a Maqqef at Psalm 1:1!
However, the Snaith edition allegedly based on Letteris text's does have a
Maqqef here.Academic editions of the Hebrew Bible based on the L B19a all contain the Maqqef and even Dotan has retains it here. Eliyahu Korngold widely used text (based on Heidenheim's משפטי הטעמים?) also has a Maqqef. However, the Westminster 4.2 marks the maqqef with a asterisk and note indicating either a typographical error or that they read the L B19a differently than the printed BHS.
The reason why I bring this up is that some claim the addition of maqqef rules out translating the verse using the verb to be, 'is'. Instead they claim that the phrase should be translated (or understood) as if it were in the 'construct state' thus: A fortunate man...
Of course, we know or at least we assume that only the consonants are original and even they change from an older Paleo-script to the Ashuri script used today.
(1) Does the edition of the Hebrew Bible you use have a maqqef?
(2) Would either the lack of or addition of the maqqef effect your translation?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I've been studying the first Psalm for quite some time. I would take the Blessed in the Beatitude sense. It's much more of a characteristic rather than anything circumstantial. God's blessings on the righteous have little to do with feeling happy but more of exuding a joy from a confidence in God's provisions in all things that cannot be taken away. Look up the Greek equivalent for makarios.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Happy are those who mourn. Yeah, that makes sense.
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Mike Binks said:
I will make one comment on tradition - and that is on the pronunciation of bless-ed. I have always pronounced it blessed and hearing pronounced the other way has always made the reader sound 'affected' to my ear. It just grates. I wonder how many visitors to the church would wonder if the person at the lectern can actually read?
It is pronounced "bless-ed" in quite a number of hymns and praise songs ("Blessed Assurance," the chorus of "Savior Like a Shepherd Lead Us," even contemporary worship songs like "Bless-ed Be the Lord God Almighty") often enough that any visitor to the church would get used to it sooner or later and not think of it as archaic sounding or affected. In fact, of all the 33 public domain hymns listed on the Cyber Hymnal that start with "Blessed" in their titles, all but 2 are pronounced blessèd (spelled with that accent to show the two-syllable pronunciation). Hymns and songs are probably not a good evidence though, because they might be forced to use the two-syllable version due to syllabification. But one does wonder why so many of these songs were written to need a two syllable word in there if "blessed" were normally pronounced as one syllable.
It does seem from my brief and rather unscientific research this evening that more people pronounce it "bless-ed" than "blest" -- at least in public readings of the Beatitudes from Matthew 5.
Audio Bible Online pronounces it "bless-ed" (http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html)
Other audio Bible readers: NIV: Max McLean ("blest"), Charles Taylor ("bless-ed"); ESV: Marquis Laughlin ("bless-ed"); NASB: Dale McConachie ("bless-ed").
A quick review of filmic versions of the Beatitudes shows a possible leaning towards the one-syllable pronunciation among British speakers of English and a leaning towards the two-syllable pronunciation among Americans, though that isn't entirely consistent. However "bless-ed" seems by far to be the preferred pronunciation. This is certainly not an exhaustive search through all the Jesus movies, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gfMakdlHo (from "Jesus of Nazareth" (1977) with Robert Powell, British; pronounced "blest")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MeH8YyLlDE (American, but sounds like a computer-generated voice; pronounced "blest" except for blessed are the persecuted, where it's pronounced bless-èd)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQU7UiD6Kik (from "Godspell"; starting @ 3:00; American accent; bless-èd)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FguqdkieSWc (unknown film; American accent; bless-èd)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF4LbSLKNrg (from "The Visual Bible"; starting @ 0:38; American; bless-èd)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v24h9S7q51g (from "The Pilgrimage Play" (1949); starting @ 7:09; British accent; bless-èd)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FFD78J3eTU (from "King of Kings" (1961); with Jeffrey Hunter, American; bless-èd)
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BKMitchell said:
Academic editions of the Hebrew Bible based on the L B19a all contain the Maqqef and even Dotan has retains it here. Eliyahu Korngold widely used text (based on Heidenheim's משפטי הטעמים?) also has a Maqqef. However, the Westminster 4.2 marks the maqqef with a asterisk and note indicating either a typographical error or that they read the L B19a differently than the printed BHS.
The Aleppo Codex does not have Maqqef. Seems like an error in Leningrad. I try not to be constrained by masoretic delimitation. However I take it inro account as ancient exegesis. In this case the Maqef seems out of place. The Aleppo Codex does not have Maqef after אשריin any other place. I have no idea how to understand the verse with a Maqef. Do you think of it as status constructus?
BKMitchell said:(1) Does the edition of the Hebrew Bible you use have a maqqef?
I use several. Currently mostly Cohen's Aleppo. It does not have Maqef.
Dotan mostly reproduces Leningrad. I shall look at the facsimile later on and tell you if that really is the case.
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And this is why I would love to have the full OED in Logos. Sigh. But I surely couldn't afford it.Rosie Perera said:The Oxford English Dictionary is the best source for historical uses of the word ...
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Rosie Perera said:
t does seem from my brief and rather unscientific research this evening that more people pronounce it "bless-ed" than "blest" -- at least in public readings of the Beatitudes from Matthew 5.
Rosie - that doesn't seem like 'brief' to me.
Thanks for going to all that trouble.
I will take a look at the sources you highlight.
However you missed out Brian Blessed :-)
that should clinch it.
Blessings!
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Mike
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Mike Binks said:
However you missed out Brian Blessed :-)
Had never heard of him. But I see he does pronounce it with two syllables.
And another piece of research, Collins English Dictionary, 8th ed., in Logos, gives both pronunciations, but lists the 2-syllable version first:
blessed (ˈblɛsɪd blɛst)
Now for the next question, how do you pronounce "Beloved"? I would be more inclined to do it with two syllables: "Belovèd, let us love one another."
Another interesting one in this same category is peaked (the adjective meaning "pale and sickly-looking") which is generally pronounced with two syllables -- as distinct from the single syllable pronunciation which means "having a peak; pointed".
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Rosie Perera said:
Had never heard of him. But I see he does pronounce it with two syllables.
Well that wasted 10 minutes of a busy morning - you have to watch the programme regularly to know what chaos he caused.
Rosie Perera said:ow for the next question, how do you pronounce "Beloved"? I would be more inclined to do it with two syllables: "Belovèd, let us love one another."
About 50 / 50 - noticing that like Blessèd, Belovèd is more used to make it fit poetic metre or musical metrics than to make English plain.
Rosie Perera said:Another interesting one in this same category is peaked (the adjective meaning "pale and sickly-looking") which is generally pronounced with two syllables -- as distinct from the single syllable pronunciation which means "having a peak; pointed".
To my knowledge I have never used the word in that context - though I have some awareness of it - it would not the adjective that would spring to mind.
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Mike
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Mike Binks said:Rosie Perera said:
Another interesting one in this same category is peaked (the adjective meaning "pale and sickly-looking") which is generally pronounced with two syllables -- as distinct from the single syllable pronunciation which means "having a peak; pointed".
To my knowledge I have never used the word in that context - though I have some awareness of it - it would not the adjective that would spring to mind.
It was very common in these parts years ago, but seems to be used less frequently recently.
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Mike Binks said:
To my knowledge I have never used the word in that context - though I have some awareness of it - it would not the adjective that would spring to mind.
The answer to the question of -ed pronunciation can be found in this link:
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David Knoll said:
Do you think of it as status constructus?
No, but the maqqef, could have been added for practical purpose of davening tehillim by getting read of one accent?
The L B19a? or what Seforim Online reports to be the Leningrad Codex?? does not have a maqqef:
David Knoll said:I use several. Currently mostly Cohen's Aleppo. It does not have Maqef.
Dotan mostly reproduces Leningrad. I shall look at the facsimile later on and tell you if that really is the case.
I sometimes use Hebrew University's Keter Yerushalayim, but I have not had a chance to use Cohen's Aleppo.
In this case I think it is really telling that C.D. Ginsburg didn't use a maqqef. He would have had a wide knowledge of what the various Massorah and codices preserved in Europe had on this verse. And, it is amazing that in this case he matches the Aleppo.
And here's part of the upper Massorah Magna:
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
The L B19a? or what Seforim Online reports to be the Leningrad Codex?? does not have a maqqef:
Actually, I think it does. A tiny one. Hebrew palaeography requires some practice so I asked Dr. Rafael Zer of the Hebrew University Bible Project for his input on this. He says:
I have looked again in the new facsimile of the Leningrad Codex and indeed there is a clear Maqef. However in my opinion there is an attempt to erase it i.e. an attempt to make L conform to the version of A. L has hundreds of similar occurrences.
There is a disagreement in the indication of the Maqef here: A, L6, S1 don't indicate a Maqef. L, L13, C have a Maqef. See in modern Hebrew:
כתר ארם צובא ניקודו וטעמיו / ישראל ייבין page 320.
BKMitchell said:And here's part of the upper Massorah Magna:
Which relates to the sequence מירכא, געיה
BKMitchell said:In this case I think it is really telling that C.D. Ginsburg didn't use a maqqef. He would have had a wide knowledge of what the various Massorah and codices preserved in Europe had on this verse. And, it is amazing that in this case he matches the Aleppo.
I think he recognized the problem of the Maqef here (both words contain a vocalization sign). He was a wise man.
BKMitchell said:I sometimes use Hebrew University's Keter Yerushalayim
No Comment other than it is not related to HUBP. [:)]
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David Knoll said:
The answer to the question of -ed pronunciation can be found in this link:
What a great resource - thank you David.
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Mike
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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We always have to remember that words communicate not based on their dictionary definitions, but their popular perceptions. Language is fluid and ultimately democratic. A lot of people hate that, and there is plenty of evidence that Orwell was right and language is slowly melting down--look at the sad fate of the word "awesome"--but in the end, common conversation determines the destiny of language. Thus "happy," I would argue, is heard differently than the dictionary definition Rosie posted. It has become synonymous with a transient emotion (as has "love," very sadly). To us it means a momentary, positive feeling. Most of us have pushed forward the word "joy" to convey a deeper, more foundational positive condition of the soul. I really can't abide the word "happy" in the Beatitudes or Psalm 1, based on how I hear the word. "Blessed," of course, is not perfect either. This is probably a great teaching example for the gray areas of interpreting Scripture. So often we just don't have the right word in English, and Matthew 5 is Exhibit A.
Similarly, what does the following say about us? We once had a rich vocabulary to describe sin and its effects--words such as iniquity, wretch, transgressions, depravity--and most of those words are in some process of becoming obscure. During the KJV's anniversary I've come to appreciate the way that Bible boosted and all defined the English language for so many years. Christianity Today has an excellent article on what our language would be like without the KJV. I love more accurate translations, personally, but their vocabulary will never be as rich. Blessed is imperfect, but it's a far sight better than "happy."
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Rob Suggs said:
We always have to remember that words communicate not based on their dictionary definitions, but their popular perceptions.
Quite true - but the way words communicate also varies by location and setting. For example, I grew up with two pronunciations of creek having different meanings if it had a name it was creek, if it was unnamed it was crik. What I know as a periwinkle is unrelated to it's use in Louisiana. There are a number of religious terms that vary in meaning based on the theological position of the person using the term. I prefer to judge translations including the setting in which I wish to use the translation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
There are a number of religious terms that vary in meaning based on the theological position of the person using the term.
You're certainly right about that! If "the right" person talks about the Eucharist as a "symbol" I have no problems at all; if "the wrong" person does it, all my alarm bells start ringing like mad...
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David Knoll said:
Actually, I think it does. A tiny one. Hebrew palaeography requires some practice so I asked Dr. Rafael Zer of the Hebrew University Bible Project for his input on this. He says:
I have looked again in the new facsimile of the Leningrad Codex and indeed there is a clear Maqef. However in my opinion there is an attempt to erase it i.e. an attempt to make L conform to the version of A. L has hundreds of similar occurrences.
I was blind but, now I see![I]
David Knoll said:BKMitchell said:
And here's part of the upper Massorah Magna:
Which relates to the sequence מירכא, געיה
And, here is the same Massorah from the photo posted earlier on this thread. This is slightly edited by Weil and typed by Logos:3193
Weil, G. E. (2001). Massorah Gedolah: Manuscrit B. 19a de Léningrad. Introd. in French and Hebrew.; Title on added t.p.: Bet Tsiporah : Massorah gedolah.; Distributor statement stamped on added t.p.; Errata slip inserted. (353). Rome: Pontificium Institutum Biblicum. Electronic edition published by Logos and packaged with their BHS Helps Collection (3 vols.)
Also, is of interest that the word Ashrei with a Mereka accent plus a Silluq(left methegh) followed by a word with a Revia accent appears 3 times in the Book of Psalm:
Psa 1:1
Psa 32:2
Psa 40:5David Knoll said:
I think he recognized the problem of the Maqef here (both words contain a vocalization sign). He was a wise man.My respect for the man is growing, he certainly didn't bow to the pressure to insert a maqef as was common with many printings of the Hebrew Bible at the time. Well, I have found that there are some who would like to have it both ways. Artscroll's Tanach has a maqqef here, but... their Siddurim and single volume Tehillim do not have it.David Knoll said:BKMitchell said:I sometimes use Hebrew University's Keter Yerushalayim
No Comment other than it is not related to HUBP.
Well, then I am going to have to start acquiring some of the HUBP volumes. Do, they have an electronic version as, well?חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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fgh said:
If "the right" person talks about the Eucharist as a "symbol" I have no problems at all; if "the wrong" person does it, all my alarm bells start ringing like mad...
Interesting comment, but who is "the right" person to speak of the Eucharist as a "symbol"? I'm curious because I see the ceremony as symbolic.
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Jack,
this may drive this thread into even more OT, but I think the answer is obvious: if someone with a known non-symbolic understanding of a sacrament (let's take Benedict XVI as an example) makes a statement referring to it as a symbol, he will be understood as adressing only one of many aspects of Eucharist or deliberately using language to achieve broader consensus.
This reminds me of looking whether Logos has a Reading List or more on this subject and whether i want to update it, since most often I find that the resources linked are not in my library, while those that I have (e.g from IVP Reference Collection 3) are not.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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NewbieMick said:
this may drive this thread into even more OT
A thread go off topic? Unbelievable. I thought I knew the answer when I asked the question, but just wanted to check with fgh since she was the person who made the comment.
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Jack Caviness said:
Interesting comment, but who is "the right" person to speak of the Eucharist as a "symbol"?
Given the number of threads about the meaning of language, I can't resist. Perhaps the same group that refer to the creed as "the symbol of faith"?[:P]
Naw .... but it was worth a try.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jack Caviness said:
Interesting comment, but who is "the right" person to speak
Whatever answer you get will be problematic.
- If I predetermine someone is "right" before they make a pronouncement, it possibly sets me up to be misled
- If I only accept those things I think are "right" I am equally at risk of misleading myself.
All men are flawed so there can not be one "right" human to rely on, can there?
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Matthew C Jones said:
Whatever answer you get will be problematic.
If you read fgh's post, it was the difference in meaning of the term "symbolic" when used by people of different theologies that she was bringing attention to. "Right" refers to using the same meaning that fgh naturally assigns to the word. The opposite is not "wrong" but rather "alternative meaning". Misreading her post is a perfect example of the kind of verbal snafu that we were trying to bring to the attention of thread readers.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
"Right" refers to using the same meaning that fgh naturally assigns to the word. The opposite is not "wrong" but rather "alternative meaning". Misreading her post is a perfect example of the kind of verbal snafu that we were trying to bring to the attention of thread readers.
But "Alternate" was not the word she used. She used the word "Wrong". Therefore, I did not misread her post.
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There's a difference between "the wrong person", and "the person is wrong" or "there's something wrong with that person". Seems some of you read one of the latter.
Using "the right person" and "the wrong person" (which I made sure to put in quotes to make it extra clear) is simply a, fairly normal, way of contrasting. I think we've all experienced that if "the right person" tells us -- for example -- that "you're an idiot!", we just laugh. We may even take it as a compliment. But if "the wrong person" uses the exact same words we're seriously hurt/offended/worried/infuriated. That doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the latter person. It may simply be that the first is a friend who loves us and says it in jest, while the latter is a deeply respected boss who is dead serious. He may even be completely right in his assessment; for the success of our careers he's still "the wrong person" to hear it from.
My whole point was simply to reinforce MJ's assertion about theological words meaning different things when said by different people. Another example: if you see "the Word" without any context, what do you first think of? I suspect the vast majority here thinks "the Bible". I think "Christ". Which means that when I'm on these forums, English/Swedish isn't the only kind of translation that's going on in my head. To understand someone's theological statement, understanding the person can be as important as understanding the dictionary meaning of the words.
Much of that involves understanding how opinions on one thing affects opinions on another. Many of you here could read a chapter from an unknown Evangelical commentary and tell from that exactly what kind of an Evangelical the author is. You recognize the "code words" that reveal whether he takes this or that position on this or that disputed question. And then you (mostly unconsciously) use that understanding to understand other things he says. I wouldn't even know what positions there are, much less could I pick up the finer clues that expose them. But I'm fairly good at picking up the finer clues that reveal that when this particular Catholic or Lutheran talks about the Eucharist as a "symbol" he might not mean what I, the pope, the Church Fathers or official church documents would mean, but rather that it's only a symbol. He might even use the exact same words that I might use, but they still don't mean the exact same thing.
And, btw, most of you here wouldn't be either "the right person" or "the wrong person" in that example. I don't think I need any alarm bells to tell me what you mean with a "symbolic" Eucharist, any more than I need any alarm bells to tell me that a Baptist talking about his son's baptism isn't likely to be talking about a newborn. [:P]
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fgh said:
There's a difference between "the wrong person", and "the person is wrong" or "there's something wrong with that person". Seems some of you read one of the latter.
Using "the right person" and "the wrong person" (which I made sure to put in quotes to make it extra clear) is simply a, fairly normal, way of contrasting. I think we've all experienced that if "the right person" tells us -- for example -- that "you're an idiot!", we just laugh. We may even take it as a compliment. But if "the wrong person" uses the exact same words we're seriously hurt/offended/worried/infuriated. That doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the latter person. It may simply be that the first is a friend who loves us and says it in jest, while the latter is a deeply respected boss who is dead serious. He may even be completely right in his assessment; for the success of our careers he's still "the wrong person" to hear it from.
Very well said!
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fgh said:
Using "the right person" and "the wrong person" (which I made sure to put in quotes to make it extra clear) is simply a, fairly normal, way of contrasting. I think we've all experienced that if "the right person" tells us -- for example -- that "you're an idiot!", we just laugh. We may even take it as a compliment. But if "the wrong person" uses the exact same words we're seriously hurt/offended/worried/infuriated. That doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with the latter person. It may simply be that the first is a friend who loves us and says it in jest, while the latter is a deeply respected boss who is dead serious. He may even be completely right in his assessment; for the success of our careers he's still "the wrong person" to hear it from.
In 74 year of living from Maine to Florida in the Eastern US, I have never heard "the right person" and "the wrong person" used in the sense you describe.
Perhaps I am being a bit dense, but truthfully, your usage still puzzles me. Who is "the right person" and the "wrong person"?
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