What do you get from the Talmud?...
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Patience
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If we were to string together 100 one word replies, what would they be? [8-|]
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an understanding of one type of scriptural exegesis - provocative questions - ... (I'd have a even better answer if it had arrived today [:P])
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Between the upcoming EEC, my regular Logos payment, and this $160 offering I'm a little uncomfortable with the expenditure. If I knew it was something I'd dive into and relish, I'd be more comfortable with the outlay. Does the Talmud do a good job of illuminating Scripture, or is it more a 'precepts of men' sort of thing?
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The sheer number of citations in exegetical references to the Mishnah and Talmud make it an essential resource. It illuminates the prevailing religious system in place during the New Testament. It also gives one an idea as to how the Scriptures were interpreted in that era.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Michael .... for me, the Talmud is similar to some of the OT inscription resources. They give hints concerning the OT text, as does the Talmud relative to the NT period. That said, they're centuries after the period of interest, with very flimsy connects. If the price discount were not so great, I'd personally forego them. The Mishnah provides quite a bit of likely 1st century thought (it too being formed well after the NT period). For me, it's strictly an investment; if not now, I'd certainly not pay its future price. And as been mentioned above, the references to it are quite frequent. The question I would pose, is whether you'd want it 5-10 years from now.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Michael Anda said:
Does the Talmud do a good job of illuminating Scripture, or is it more a 'precepts of men'
Are you asking this from a Jewish or a Christian perspective? From a Jewish perspective the Talmud is even more seminal than the Early Church Fathers for Christians.
It gives insight into the interpretational techniques of early rabbinic Judaism and their understanding of what Torah and Oral Torah mean. It provides the context for the many references to the Talmud in the commentaries and studies - both New and Old Testament. It's mindset is far from contemporary Western thought so it takes some work to learn to read it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I guess ultimately my question boils down to, does the Talmud illuminate, or does it obscure, truth?
Luke 24:32 | NAS
They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”0 -
Michael Anda said:
I guess ultimately my question boils down to, does the Talmud illuminate, or does it obscure, truth?
Your question delves into theology I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.. Rabbinic thought is more about wrestling with Scripture to find the truth. Only you can answer whether the Talmud illuminates truth as you define it. You can easily find online translations of major chunks of the Talmud. Read them and see if you think it would be of value to you.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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a random page from http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_6.html
Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Shabbath
Folio 6a
Compare it to one who carries an article in the street: there, surely,
though he is not liable as long as he holds it and proceeds, yet when he
lays it down he is liable; so here too, it is not different. How
compare! there, wherever he puts it down it is a place of liability; but
here, if he deposits it in the colonnade, it is a place of
non-liability? Rather compare it to one who carries an article [in the
street] exactly four [cubits].1
There, surely, though he is exempt if he deposits it within the four
cubits, yet when he deposits it at the end of the four cubits he is
liable; so here too, it is not different. How compare? There it is a
place of exemption [only] as far as this man is concerned, but to all
others2
it is a place of liability; but here it is a place of exemption for
all? Rather compare it to one who carries [an object] from private to
public ground through the sides of the street:3
there, surely, though he is exempt if he lays it down in the sides of
the street, yet when he lays it down in the street [itself] he is
liable; so here too it is not different.
R. Papa demurred thereto: that is well according to the Rabbis, who
maintain that the sides of the street are not regarded as the street;
but according to R. Eliezer [b. Jacob],4
who rules that the sides of the street are regarded as the street, what
can be said? — Said R. Aha son of R. Ika to him: Granted that you know
R. Eliezer [b. Jacob] to rule that the sides of the street are regarded
as the street where there is no fencing;5 but do you know him [to rule thus] where there is fencing?6 Hence it7 is analogous to this.
R. Johanan said: Yet Ben 'Azzai agrees in the case of one who throws.8
It was taught likewise: If one carries [an object] from a shop to an
open place through a colonnade, he is liable, whether he carries [it]
out or carries [it] in; or whether he reaches it across or throws it.
Ben 'Azzai said: If he carries it out or in, he is exempt; if he reaches
it across or throws it, he is liable.
Our Rabbis taught: There are four domains in respect to the Sabbath; private ground, public ground, karmelith,
and a place of non-liability. And what is private ground? A trench ten
[handbreadths] deep and four wide, and likewise a wall ten
[handbreadths] high and four broad, — that is absolute private ground.9 And what is public ground? A highroad,10 a great public square,11 and open alleys,12
— that is absolute public ground. One may not carry out from this
private to this public ground, nor carry in from this public to this
private ground; and if one does carry out or in, unwitting, he is liable
to a sin-offering; if deliberately, he is punished by kareth13 or stoned.14 But the sea, a plain, a colonnade, or a karmelith, ranks neither as public nor as private ground:15 one must not carry [objects] about16
within it and if he does, he is liable; and one must not carry out [an
object] thence into public ground or from the public ground into it, nor
carry [an object] from it into private ground or from the private
ground into it; yet if he does carry out or in, he is not liable. As to
courtyards with many owners17 and blind alleys,18 if an 'erub is made, they are permitted; if an 'erub is not made, they are forbidden.19 A man standing on a threshold20
may take [an object] from the master of the house, or give [it] to him,
and may take [an object] from the poor man or give [it] to him;
providing however that he does not take from the master of the house and
give to the poor man or from the poor man and give it to the master of
the house;21
and if he does take and give, the three are exempt. Others state, A
threshold serves as two domains: if the door is open, it is as within;
if shut, it is as without. But if the threshold is ten [handbreadths]
high and four broad, it is a separate domain.22
The Master said: 'That is [absolute] private ground.' What does this exclude?23
— It excludes the following [view] of R. Judah. For it was taught: Even
more than this did R. Judah say: If one owns two houses on the opposite
sides of the street,24 he can placeOrthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Are they speaking in code?
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Michael Anda said:
Are they speaking in code?
The Talmud is best understood if read while drinking a large glass of Mogen David or Manischewitz.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:Michael Anda said:
Are they speaking in code?
The Talmud is best understood if read while drinking a large glass of Mogen David or Manischewitz.
QFE! (Quoted for emphasis)
It's a really unique piece of writing, but I have, as an Evangelical Christian, found it very enlightening (if I may use that term) on the Torah, and especially on the culture in which Jesus and the apostles were ministering.
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For $100 more, I can get the hybrid grill I've been coveting at Sam's Club. The thing is, I already have a pretty nice grill. The issue here is, I'm having trouble seeing the value of the Talmud for me personally. I do realize that if I'm ever to acquire a copy, now is the time.
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Michael Anda said:
For $100 more, I can get the hybrid grill I've been coveting at Sam's Club. The thing is, I already have a pretty nice grill. The issue here is, I'm having trouble seeing the value of the Talmud for me personally. I do realize that if I'm ever to acquire a copy, now is the time.
Forget the Talmud, get that! (I jest)
What kind of studies do you do? Are you a student, pastor, avid learner. . .? The Talmud could be tremendously helpful to some, and rarely opened by others.
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Don't forget there is a 30-days money-back guarantee. You could try it out and make the final decision in a month.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I did forget. Thank you, fgh.
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