PBB Update?
Comments
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LibreOffice may be a docx alternative on Mac (supports Hebrew), but does not support VBA (can use 4 other scripting languages
The LibreOffice website claims that the application will open docx files, so I downloaded it and opened a simple outline document created with MS Word 2008. The formatting was so poor that a complete rebuilding of the document would have been necessary. For me, at least, LibreOffice is no substitute for any word processor. Unfortunately Mellel, which does support right-to-left text very well, does not do docx. However, like Word, links to Logos resources do not work there either.
Bob, is PBB to be a Windows only feature or has Logos addressed the fatal shortcomings of MS Word for Mac?
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Mark Smith said:Rev Chris said:
Just because an official Logos PBB marketplace isn't opened up doesn't mean we couldn't still share the files.
Bob indicated that sharing of PBB files would come later (with note files, I assume). If each PBB resource is in fact saved as a separate resource file then we should be able to share them. I suppose we'd have to download them and SCAN them in.
I don't know if that is going to be the case, but would like to know, as it will make PBB files useful for me from the start.
That's exactly what I am hoping for. The problem would be if Logos 4 would not allow reading other than my own PBBs. It was the scenario of the v3 Private PBBs. If we can use SCANED files in our Logos 4, would that be a solution for MAC (at least at the beginning) somebody would create a conversion utility (from old PBB to the new format), working on both Windows and MAC platforms? Would Logos be able to convert StillTruth files if we pay for them doing that (let's say via Community Pricing)?
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
If we can use SCANED files in our Logos 4, would that be a solution for MAC (at least at the beginning) somebody would create a conversion utility (from old PBB to the new format), working on both Windows and MAC platforms?
That really would not help me. I am more interested in creating PBB than in converting older ones.
So far, no one from Logos has even acknowledged that a problem exists here, even though I have asked the questions several times.
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Jack Caviness said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
If we can use SCANED files in our Logos 4, would that be a solution for MAC (at least at the beginning) somebody would create a conversion utility (from old PBB to the new format), working on both Windows and MAC platforms?
That really would not help me. I am more interested in creating PBB than in converting older ones.
So far, no one from Logos has even acknowledged that a problem exists here, even though I have asked the questions several times.
Yes, I realize that and I am sorry for that. I think Logos should find some solution to keep the parity of the features, although it might mean not the immediate parity. It might be asking really uninformed question, but is it too costly or annoying the system or causing some other problems to have a virtual Windows system (like BootCamp) on the MAC to be able to produce the PBBs on the Windows MS Word? I realize you would have to pay for the BootCamp or similar system, for the Windows OS and for the MS Word. But is there any other way? Has Logos anything to say to the matter?
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:Jack Caviness said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
If we can use SCANED files in our Logos 4, would that be a solution for MAC (at least at the beginning) somebody would create a conversion utility (from old PBB to the new format), working on both Windows and MAC platforms?
That really would not help me. I am more interested in creating PBB than in converting older ones.
So far, no one from Logos has even acknowledged that a problem exists here, even though I have asked the questions several times.
Yes, I realize that and I am sorry for that. I think Logos should find some solution to keep the parity of the features, although it might mean not the immediate parity. It might be asking really uninformed question, but is it too costly or annoying the system or causing some other problems to have a virtual Windows system (like BootCamp) on the MAC to be able to produce the PBBs on the Windows MS Word? I realize you would have to pay for the BootCamp or similar system, for the Windows OS and for the MS Word. But is there any other way? Has Logos anything to say to the matter?
Oracle's VirtualBox is a free virtualization alternative compared to Parallels Desktop and VMWare Fusion. Apple's Boot Camp is a free dual boot option.
Boot Camp partitions hard drive so Windows can be installed on a Mac for native booting (faster than virtual since not running Mac OS). Apple provides hardware drivers that include ability to read and write Mac files when running Windows.
Windows and Word need licenses. For virtual use, need appropriate Windows license (more versions are legal for use via Boot Camp). Also virtualization needs more RAM (for Mac OS X and Windows to run at same time).
Boot Camp and virtualization solutions require Windows setup and maintenance along with Logos 4 configurations for Mac and PC, which is technically viable for PBB creation (optionally using Shibboleth).
Wonder if Logos has discussed right to left language needs in Mac Office with Microsoft ?
Currently not know about open source LibreOffice potential for PBB creation on Mac and PC (using docx formatted files).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
It might be asking really uninformed question, but is it too costly or annoying the system or causing some other problems to have a virtual Windows system (like BootCamp) on the MAC to be able to produce the PBBs on the Windows MS Word?
I already run XP under Parallels on those rare occasions when I need Windows. (The application for preparing corporation taxes is windows only.) Sometimes I need L4 Win for a feature not yet operational in L4 Mac.
I would only need to purchase MS Office for Windows. For me. it would not be all that expensive as I already own most of what I would need. However, I do not want to use Windows, and Bob has promised parity between the two platforms.
EDIT: Sorry about the abrupt end of this post. I did not want to express vent my frustration—just yet.
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Mark Smith said:
If each PBB resource is in fact saved as a separate resource file then we should be able to share them.
Mark, each PBB resource should be a separate resource file, if I read a statement that they will be just like regular L4 resources correctly.
HOWEVER, regular L4 (or even L3) resources have a license key and you can view them only if you have a license (there is an FTP server that anyone can download a boatload of L3 resources, but they will not open without a proper license)
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Vladimir Lukyanov said:Mark Smith said:
If each PBB resource is in fact saved as a separate resource file then we should be able to share them.
Mark, each PBB resource should be a separate resource file, if I read a statement that they will be just like regular L4 resources correctly.
HOWEVER, regular L4 (or even L3) resources have a license key and you can view them only if you have a license (there is an FTP server that anyone can download a boatload of L3 resources, but they will not open without a proper license)
It was not so with the v3 PBBs. The public version of PBB builder was able to create PBBs that were possible to be seen on any Libronix 3 Base Package installation. Only private PBBs were possible to be seen only on the owners Libronix installation.
Bohuslav
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Bob Pritchett said:
If you built PBB books in HTML directly, you'll need to bring them into Word.
If you hate Word / prefer OpenOffice, etc. we don't yet have a solution other than getting your book into Word's .DOCX format.
Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?
Bob, thank you for giving us more info on the PBB progress.
Is .docx format critical or can we work with .doc The reason for this question is that more word processors are compatible with the older format. As I read it, there are serious problems with Word for Mac...
I am looking equally for both the ability to read others' PBBs and to create my own. If I HAD to pick one vs. the other, I would value ability to read PBBs higher than creating my own.
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Jack Caviness said:
However, I do not want to use Windows, and Bob has promised parity between the two platforms.
I'm hoping that parity is truly achieved. I will switch to Mac if it is. The lack of left-to-right text in MS Word for Mac is very disturbing to me. I have been keeping up with MS Word for Windows (2010 now) and really like it. I did not know the Mac version wasn't equally as matured.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
It was not so with the v3 PBBs. The public version of PBB builder was able to create PBBs that were possible to be seen on any Libronix 3 Base Package installation. Only private PBBs were possible to be seen only on the owners Libronix installation.
Right, but we are talking about L4 PBBs that function like regular L4 resources. Shareable L3 PBBs were free BY DESIGN. I don't know if the "license look-up" was disabled on them or it was unlocked by default (these are two different things).
It is possible that L4 PBBs can be "scanned in," and thus shared for free, however I seriously doubt it. At best, we can share source files and compile the same resource for ourselves, but after BETA, there could be prohibitive cost to this as well.
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Vladimir Lukyanov said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
It was not so with the v3 PBBs. The public version of PBB builder was able to create PBBs that were possible to be seen on any Libronix 3 Base Package installation. Only private PBBs were possible to be seen only on the owners Libronix installation.
Right, but we are talking about L4 PBBs that function like regular L4 resources. Shareable L3 PBBs were free BY DESIGN. I don't know if the "license look-up" was disabled on them or it was unlocked by default (these are two different things).
It is possible that L4 PBBs can be "scanned in," and thus shared for free, however I seriously doubt it. At best, we can share source files and compile the same resource for ourselves, but after BETA, there could be prohibitive cost to this as well.
The thing is that you were able to read public PBBs only if you owned one of the Base Packages which came with the pbb reading key for all (but foreign private) PBBs. I don't see any reason it cannot be the same with the Logos 4 PBBs.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
The thing is that you were able to read public PBBs only if you owned one of the Base Packages which came with the pbb reading key for all (but foreign private) PBBs. I don't see any reason it cannot be the same with the Logos 4 PBBs.
Bohuslav, I understand what you are saying.
These are contrasts of the 2 versions:
- L3 PBBs were designed to be free for ALL who have a base package - not true for L4 (could be private, just like L3's or could be for sale)
- L3 PBBs were designed to be installed outside of the cloud (shared via email, downloaded from a 3rd party website, ...) - not true for L4 (it can only function via cloud. Why? I believe it is precisely because of license control)
the reason for L3 and L4 differences are fundamentally architectural.
I believe, that if a L4 PBB author sets his creation as FREE, then and only then any person with a Base Package will be able to read it.
What I was meaning to imply in my initial post that for the purposes of Beta, LOGOS will mark newly created L4 PBBs as PRIVATE (especially since sharing is not enabled, maybe even on purpose). In that particular case (and again, I am supposing and speculating at this point) it could not be "imported" by a scan command, because of the licensing issue.
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Vladimir Lukyanov said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
The thing is that you were able to read public PBBs only if you owned one of the Base Packages which came with the pbb reading key for all (but foreign private) PBBs. I don't see any reason it cannot be the same with the Logos 4 PBBs.
Bohuslav, I understand what you are saying.
These are contrasts of the 2 versions:
- L3 PBBs were designed to be free for ALL who have a base package - not true for L4 (could be private, just like L3's or could be for sale)
- L3 PBBs were designed to be installed outside of the cloud (shared via email, downloaded from a 3rd party website, ...) - not true for L4 (it can only function via cloud. Why? I believe it is precisely because of license control)
the reason for L3 and L4 differences are fundamentally architectural.
I believe, that if a L4 PBB author sets his creation as FREE, then and only then any person with a Base Package will be able to read it.
What I was meaning to imply in my initial post that for the purposes of Beta, LOGOS will mark newly created L4 PBBs as PRIVATE (especially since sharing is not enabled, maybe even on purpose). In that particular case (and again, I am supposing and speculating at this point) it could not be "imported" by a scan command, because of the licensing issue.
Yes Vladimir, I think you are right, although I would like to hope there would be SCAN import made available before the final sharing and selling system is implemented.
Bohuslav
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me too!!!!
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Jack,
I know that you're not really interested in workarounds (and I must say that a function dependent on Microsoft Word for WIndows seems limited) but is there any chance that the online version of Word (office.live.com) would meet your (our) needs?
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Matthew C Jones said:
I did not know the Mac version wasn't equally as matured.
It is not a question of maturity. It is a deliberate business decision by MS to not support right-to-left text for the Mac. According to the MS forums, this is due to the way Apple handles text rendering, a rather strange excuse since several software developers have provided Mac products that render right-to-left text correctly.
Bob spoke of problems caused by IE-dependance in L3. Why, then, make PBB dependent upon another MS product?
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Damian McGrath said:
Jack,
I know that you're not really interested in workarounds (and I must say that a function dependent on Microsoft Word for WIndows seems limited) but is there any chance that the online version of Word (office.live.com) would meet your (our) needs?
A quick Google search seems to indicate that the online version of Word still requires a Windows installation (or possibly Linux). In that case, I could just purchase MS Office for Windows and run it under XP and Parallels, which I already own. That would not be the full parity between Mac and Windows that Bob has repeatedly promised.
NOTE: I am not angry with Logos. I just would like to receive an answer to my repeated question.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where
I have been awaiting PBB for the ability to create my own documents as well as the ability to read all the "free PBBs" that I have from Scripture Truth.
Charlene
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Bob Pritchett said:
Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where
My primary interest is to read the old L3 PBBs so I can work with them as a full-citizenship resource of L4 (I have over 800 - hard to part with many of these precious gems, which is why I still have L3). Second is to make my own for myself and third is to share mine with others.
On a side note, I was a bit surprised (like some others mentioned above) that Logos 4 will continue a relationship with a Microsoft product. I use and like MS products, but it's hard to maximize your software functionality when it is joined at the hip (or even just holding hands) with someone else's software. I was hoping the user side of the L4 PBB would be something simple and universal, like a PDF file. Inexpensive and easy to create and upload for processing (lots of word processing products can output to PDF format). Apparently the compiler uses XML (which is good) and so the DOCX file format was chosen. Too bad a PDF can't be submitted, passed through a XML converter/generator and then be processed.
In the mean time I'll consider copying from my most treasured L3 PBBs and pasting them into MS Word (ouch) so I can get them into L4. I learned a long time ago that in software development any information/data need can be solved with enough time and money (Logos 4 being a great example of success), so I look forward to an easier way to get the old PBBs into L4.
It sounds like L3 PBB was used more and became a more important feature than anyone realized. I can't imagine the time and cost dear souls of Christ spent creating all of those PBBs. Those of us who benefited thank you for your hard work. Hebrews 6:10.
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Tim Hensler said:Bob Pritchett said:
Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where
My primary interest is to read the old L3 PBBs so I can work with them as a full-citizenship resource of L4 (I have over 800 - hard to part with many of these precious gems, which is why I still have L3). Second is to make my own for myself and third is to share mine with others.
[Y]
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Possibly the solution for the microsoft problem is for logos to design their own word processor. I know many people have wanted the notes beefed up in L4, and I know it has been said that logos does not want to endeavor to make word processor product. A word processor that would handle greek, hebrew, aramaic, and latin proficiently would be excellent. The problems is how long would that push back p.b.b
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Blair Laird said:
Possibly the solution for the microsoft problem is for logos to design their own word processor. I know many people have wanted the notes beefed up in L4, and I know it has been said that logos does not want to endeavor to make word processor product. A word processor that would handle greek, hebrew, aramaic, and latin proficiently would be excellent. The problems is how long would that push back p.b.b
I do not think that this would be a good solution. All Logos had to do was to pick a format that is easily available and standard on every platform like HTML.
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Tim Hensler said:
like a PDF file
PDF files are not that easy to work with. For an example, go to any of the many web sites that converts a PDF file to a DOCX or HTML file. Then convert a PDF file to see how well the program did the job.
I personally have not fond a good program or web site that did a good job in the conversion process.
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I think I don't believe this is the solution. There must have been many thousands of man-years that Microsoft invested into MS Word - and Logos should do this task (instead of taking care of features that are screamed for daily in this forum because they are long overdue) way out of their area of competence?Blair Laird said:Possibly the solution for the microsoft problem is for logos to design their own word processor.
I don't think that Logos could accomplish this in any foreseeable future, I don't see that they should even try to given the tasks they already have at hand and I don't see they would if I read Bob's comments regarding even a little bit of formatting here or there.
The Mac users out here will most probably find a way to help themselves, should they want to produce a PBB which requires a feature such as RTL text that is not working on Word for Mac (such as running a second OS for this, finding another program that does the trick or finding someone nice enough to finish the formatting of these parts).
Have joy in the Lord!
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What's going to happen to works that are already in PBB format that are available for free and also offered by Logos now like the Works of John Newton?
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Michael Lyman said:
What's going to happen to works that are already in PBB format that are available for free and also offered by Logos now like the Works of John Newton?
PBB functionality will be content independent, so someone could recompile the Newton works already in the old PBB format into the new one and share them. At least they can do that now in 3.0.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Michael Lyman said:
What's going to happen to works that are already in PBB format that are available for free and also offered by Logos now like the Works of John Newton?
I can't speak for other PBB authors/compilers, but I will not compile for Logos 4 any PBBs that I created and released freely to the community for Libronix that have been subsequently offered for sale by Logos. In my case, I released PBBs of all of E.W. Hengstenberg's works but then after many months Logos compiled Hengstenberg's commentary on the Psalms and offered it for sale. So, I won't compile Hengstenberg's commentary on the Psalms going forward because I don't want to compete with Logos. I have made it a point not to compile books previously offered by Logos. As I said, this is how I view things but others may have a different view. I intend to compile all of the other 50+ PBBs I have compiled for Libronix for Logos 4 when PBB is released. I may even reach out for help in the compilation effort. [:)]
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Bill Anderson said:
I intend to compile all of the other 50+ PBBs I have compiled for Libronix for Logos 4 when PBB is released. I may even reach out for help in the compilation effort.
I believe I thanked you for your valuable work on the newsgroups, and I want to thank you in advance for all you will do in L4. [Y] You have been, and continue to be, a valuable asset to the Logos community. [Y]
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Jack Caviness said:
That really would not help me. I am more interested in creating PBB than in converting older ones.
So far, no one from Logos has even acknowledged that a problem exists here, even though I have asked the questions several times.
I assume you're referring to the following question?
Jack Caviness said:Bob, is PBB to be a Windows only feature or has Logos addressed the fatal shortcomings of MS Word for Mac?
PBB will be a cross-platform feature, available on both Macintosh and Windows.
It's possible we may be able to make sense of Hebrew and Logos 4 links encoded in Word for Mac documents, even though Word itself can't render them correctly. Or, it's possible that the "fatal shortcomings" of Word for Mac documents are so great that we cannot work around them. As far as I know, this has not yet been tested.
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