Factual, historical origin of the Palestinians

Greetings,

I was in discussion the other day with a fellow Christian colleague who said that the Palestinians residing in Israel today are the descendants of the biblical Ismaelites. I disagree with him but since I could not base my opinion upon factual, historical information I told him that I would research the subject and advised him to do the same.

Please, I am NOT interested in groundless opinions, nor am I interested in the political aspects that understandably accompany any discussion regarding the Palestinians. I AM however wanting to know written references that I and my colleague can both go to and learn from.

Thank you.

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Rich DeRuiter

Greetings,

I was in discussion the other day with a fellow Christian colleague who said that the Palestinians residing in Israel today are the descendants of the biblical Ismaelites. I disagree with him but since I could not base my opinion upon factual, historical information I told him that I would research the subject and advised him to do the same.

Please, I am NOT interested in groundless opinions, nor am I interested in the political aspects that understandably accompany any discussion regarding the Palestinians. I AM however wanting to know written references that I and my colleague can both go to and learn from.

Thank you.

Pursuing this question here would be outside the bounds of the forum guidelines.

The question is one of recent history (last 100 years or so) in a region where history is hotly debated. It is not a question that can be settled by studying the Bible.

Try to find some contemporary histories of the region that are not tainted by obvious bias.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252740#Comment_252740

Thank you for letting me know that my question is not in accordance with the forum's guidelines.

I respectfully withdraw my post.

DMB

The Encyclopedia of Christianity has quite a bit of discussion in vols 3 & 4.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252760#Comment_252760

Thank you Denise for your reply. Unfortuantely I do not have a printed copy of The Encyclopedia of Christianity and after checking my Logos Library I find that I don't have an electronic copy either.

I am presently googling to see if I can find a copy of it online.

Your help is much appreciated[Y]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252764#Comment_252764

From Emmaus Journal Does this help any? Highlights are mine

The Roots of Arab Peoples
The term Arab seems to originally have referred to nomadic desert people without any connection to ethnicity. The first recorded use of the term comes from Assyrian military records of the Battle of Qarqar in 853 BC. They refer to an “Arabian” with his “thousand camels.” The first clear biblical reference to Arabs is in Jeremiah 25:24, where “all the kings of Arabia” are mentioned. Arabia was populated by Semitic clans that are referred to in four significant lists in the Old Testament:
    •      The descendents of Joktan, great-great grandson of Shem. He and his thirteen sons are listed in Genesis 10:25–30. They settled in southern Arabia.
    •      The descendents of the six sons of Abraham and Keturah, listed in Genesis 25:1–6. They lived in northern Arabia, called “the country of the East.” Midianites are perhaps the best known of these descendents.
    •      The descendents of Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, whose names are listed in Genesis 25:12–18. They became tribes in northern Arabia and are sometimes called the “people of the East” (Judg. 6:3, 33; Isa. 19:11; Ezek. 25:4, 10, etc.).
EmJ 13:2 (Winter 2004) p. 223
    •      The descendents of Esau, the son of Isaac, who became the nation of Edom in northwestern Arabia (Gen. 36:1–42).
These groups of nomadic people in northern Arabia appear to have frequently intermarried, as when Esau married the daughter of Ishmael (Gen. 28:9, 36:3–4). They lived in the oasis towns of the desert and controlled the lucrative caravan routes. It was Ishmaelite traders who bought Joseph as a slave and sold him to Potiphar the Egyptian (Gen. 37:25). Abraham’s descendents, the Midianites, appear to have been the dominant tribe in northern Arabia until they were defeated by Gideon (Judg. 7). After the Midianite dominance the Ishmaelites took over, with the tribe of Kedar (Qedar) being the best known.
Ishmaelites in Northern Arabia
The Ishmaelites continued to lead the northern Arabian tribes until the times of the Persians. In the northwest of Arabia the Nabataean kingdom replaced the Edomites in Mount Seir by the fourth century BC (Jer. 49:7–22; Ezek. 25:8–14; Mal. 1:2–5). They dominated north and central Arabia for four hundred years until the time of Christ. Their capital was at Petra. They held off the Greeks following Alexander’s death and reached their glory under King Aretas at the time of Christ. The purity of the ethnic line from Ishmael may not be certain, but Ishmael was certainly the symbolic ancestor claimed by these tribes in northern Arabia. By the time of Christ Ishmael’s line had a high profile among the people known as Arabs in both north and central Arabia. There is a widely held tradition that Arabs today are the descendents of Ishmael, and through him Abraham is their original ancestor. This cannot be completely true, but what we know for certain seems to support the theory that the Ishmaelites are, at the very least, a major element in the Arab genetic line. Old records clearly link the north Arabians with Ishmael’s descendents.

. Vol. 13: Emmaus Journal Volume 13. 2004 (2) (222–223). Dubuque, IA: Emmaus Bible College.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252766#Comment_252766

My searches also brought a bunch of little hits, mainly in the Archaeology magazines. This one from BAR seems to connect Philistines to Palestinians. Would that not pre-date the birth of Ishmael? There seems to be a lot of disagreement among historians and archaeologists. I think you will find a lot of theories but no conclusive evidence.

In 604 B.C. Ashkelon, like its sister-city Ekron, was destroyed by King Nebuchadrezzar (also called Nebuchadnezzar) and his neo-Babylonian army. Less than 20 years later (in 586 B.C.) Nebuchadrezzar would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple built by King Solomon.
The last Philistine king of Ashkelon, Aga’, and his sons, as well as sailors and various nobles, were exiled to Babylon, just as many Jews were after the fall of Jerusalem. Unlike the Jews, however, we hear nothing about the return of the Philistines to their native land. Those that remained behind later lost their ethnic identity, although the region they once occupied and dominated culturally, was still identified as Philistia, or Palestine, by the Romans hundreds of years later; today, many Arabs call themselves Palestinians, echoing their Philistine namesakes of the distant past.

Editor, H. S. (2004; 2004). BAR 17:02 (March/April 1991). Biblical Archaeology Society.

Yet another article mentioned the "Hellenistic Palestinians" without elaborating on their origins. Intriguing.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252766#Comment_252766

Your reply does help, Matthew, and I sincerely appreciate the time and effort of copying and pasting the information in your post.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252767#Comment_252767

I am of the same thinking as you, namely, that I will find many conflicting statements. Unfortuantely this is nothing new in researching many subjects.

I will be satisfied in researching the subject and coming as close to an objective, unbiased conclusion as possible. It will take much time and effort but it's worth it.

Many thanks.

Pam Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252772#Comment_252772

This week, I think it was on Friday, I heard a conservative Jewish radio talk show host who lives in Seattle discussing the issue at length. You might be able to get a copy of the talk on his website.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252772#Comment_252772

I will be satisfied in researching the subject and coming as close to an objective, unbiased conclusion as possible.

I value Logos for two uses. Of course I value it as a Bible study tool for aiding in my spiritual growth and walk with God. But I also enjoy the ancillary resources like Near Eastern studies, historical theology and Greek discussions. I may frequently be surprised with something that enlightens my spiritual life but I usually enjoy just the "wonder of it all." Culture, history and ideas can vary so widely.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252760#Comment_252760

The Encyclopedia of Christianity has quite a bit of discussion in vols 3 & 4.

Palestine article (worthwhile reading) in "The Encyclopedia of Christianity" volume 4 has a bibliography:

Bibliography: Y. Aharoni, The Land of the Bible: A Historical Geography (2d ed.; London, 1979) • G. Ahlström, The History of Ancient Palestine (Minneapolis, 1993) • B. J. Bailey and J. M. Bailey, Who Are the Christians in the Middle East? (Grand Rapids, 2003) • O. Binst, ed., The Levant: History and Archaeology in the Eastern Mediterranean (Cologne, 2000) • G. R. Bugh and I. J. Bickerton, “Palestine,” NEBrit (1998) 25.407–25 • A. Mazar, Archaeology of the Land of the Bible, 10,000–586 b.c.e. (New York, 1990) • J. B. Pritchard, ed., The Times Atlas of the Bible (London, 1987).

Observation: Scholar's Gold and above include "The Encyclopedia of Christianity" volumes 1 thru 4 (but does not have volume 5).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252773#Comment_252773

Pam, would you give me the weblink to that website. I would like to listen to that discussion.

Thank you.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252777#Comment_252777

There is some interesting reading on the subject in the following book in my Logos library:

Juster, D. C. (2007). The irrevocable calling : Israel's role as a light to the nations. Clarksville, MD: Messianic Jewish Publishers.

David Knoll

Greetings,

I was in discussion the other day with a fellow Christian colleague who said that the Palestinians residing in Israel today are the descendants of the biblical Ismaelites. I disagree with him but since I could not base my opinion upon factual, historical information I told him that I would research the subject and advised him to do the same.

Please, I am NOT interested in groundless opinions, nor am I interested in the political aspects that understandably accompany any discussion regarding the Palestinians. I AM however wanting to know written references that I and my colleague can both go to and learn from.

Thank you.

The answer is no. The Ishmaelites are the people who resided in Arabia. In the seventh century they occupied the Middle East Africa and Southern Spain. The indigenous peoples and cultures that were conquered assumed Arabic (New dialects of it) as their language and frequently also Islam.

See: "The Conquests of Islam" in "The History of the Christian Church" Volume IV Chapter 3 and better still every good history book about the rise of Islam.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252798#Comment_252798

Bohuslav Wojnar, I appreciate the reference and the link. Thank you.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252802#Comment_252802

David Knoll, luckily I have "The History of the Christian Church" and I've read the reference that you have given. However, I failed to see any reference to the Ismaelites and/or their residence in Spain.

As for reading a good book about Islam, well, with my present work schedule and current readings it will be awhile before I have the time to start another book. Presently I am looking for an encyclopedic source, one that would give a full answer without being a book.

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252819#Comment_252819

David Knoll, luckily I have "The History of the Christian Church" and I've read the reference that you have given. However, I failed to see any reference to the Ismaelites and/or their residence in Spain

No no no. I meant biblical Ismaelites are the tribes residing in Arabia at that time. They engaged in trade. In the seventh century their descendent i.e. the followers of Muhammad occupied the Middle East North Africa and Southern Spain. That is mentioned in that resource. The Palestinians as well as the Syrians, the Egyptians, The Iraqis and the Spaniards were not Muslim or Arabic speaking until that point. So the descendants of the Ismaelites are not the Palestinians but the Saudis. Of course the occupied Palestinians mixed with the occupiers in inter-marriage...

As far as I know Logos does not offer resources that deal with that period in the Middle East since it is not directly related to Biblical Studies.

There is a very concise Wikipedia article on the Muslim Conquests.

You also have this excellent book in Google Books which thoroughly describes the cultural change Palestine underwent during and after the Muslim occupation in the seventh century.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252829#Comment_252829

As far as I know Logos does not offer resources that deal with that period in the Middle East since it is not directly related to Biblical Studies.

Logos has been adding so many new texts lately I would be surprised if there were not several hidden among the "Academic" titles.

I found this one: Palestine, but it only has a sketchy description. I do not have the Goodly Heritage Library: Shelf One so I am unable to report how detailed it gets or if it discusses lineage from Ishmael.

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252829#Comment_252829

Sorry David, for the misunderstanding[:)].

The links that you've provided are very much appreciated. I have given them a quick glance for now but will be DEFINITELY looking at them more closely later, particularly the google book.

This is turning into quite an interesting, fact finding venture.

fgh

The first question I would ask would be: what does that colleague mean by "Palestinians", and by being "descendants of the biblical Ismaelites"?

A Palestinian -- as the term tends to be used in Western newspapers today -- can be an Armenian Christian who fled the 1917 massacres in Turkey; he can be a descendant of the Arab, Egyptian, Syrian and Turkish Muslims who've ruled the area at various times; he can be the descendant of Jewish, Samaritan, Christian or pagan converts to Islam; or he can be the descendant of a first century Jew who converted to Christianity, married the daughter of a Roman soldier, and whose offspring then intermarried with, had affairs with, or were raped by a long line of Jewish and Gentile Christians, the odd Samaritan, some Byzantine Greeks, a few Crusaders from all over Europe, and a number of Eastern Christians from all imaginable rites and peoples (and that first century Jew could, in his turn, be a descendant not only from Abraham, but also from Ruth the Moabite and one of Herod's Idumaean forefathers, as well as some Philistine, Canaanite, Hellenistic Greek, Babylonian, Persian, Assyrian, and Egyptian). Most likely -- unless he's a recent immigrant -- he's a bit of all of the above.

In other words: the probably most fought over piece of land on the planet should be the last place to look for a simple answer to the question of ancestry. [;)]

Found this about the DNA-evidence, and here's Wikipedia.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252869#Comment_252869

Off topic: your response reads like a very literal Near-Eastern translation of General Harras' (played by Curd Juergens) answer to a young officer who worries about whether he can procure evidence of his true aryan ancestry in Nazi Germany (in the film version of Carl Zuckmayer's "Des Teufels General").

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252869#Comment_252869

Most likely -- unless he's a recent immigrant -- he's a bit of all of the above.

I found the following in the book I mentioned above on the subject:

"In her classic study, From Time Immemorial, Joan Peters debunks the idea that most Palestinians are from long-term landed descendants. She uses census figures from the Turkish Empire to show that the vast majority of the Palestinians are recent 20th century immigrants to the Land. Only a minority are descendants of an historic people of the land."

Juster, D. C. (2007). The irrevocable calling : Israel's role as a light to the nations (35). Clarksville, MD: Messianic Jewish Publishers.

Pam Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252777#Comment_252777

Pam, would you give me the weblink to that website. I would like to listen to that discussion.

Thank you.

Here it is:

http://www.michaelmedved.com/broadcasts.aspx

It was the May 27 show.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252887#Comment_252887

She uses census figures from the Turkish Empire to show that the vast majority of the Palestinians are recent 20th century immigrants to the Land. Only a minority are descendants of an historic people of the land."

For most of its history Israel hasn't been a separate country. People have moved back and forth over the present day borders as wars, droughts, earthquakes and economic conditions have forced them. Or married across them. So even "recent 20th century immigrants" are likely to have [more or less distant] roots there, just as returning Jews do. Did you look at that genetic link I gave? DNA is the one thing that doesn't lie (provided, of course, that the scientist knows what he's doing). And that was just the direct paternal line.

Let's not mix up the political question with the genetical question. A study of census figures might possibly offer some insights into how well-grounded rights various groups have to live there now, but I can't imagine how it could prove anything about genetics.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252956#Comment_252956

Let's not mix up the political question with the genetical question. A study of census figures might possibly offer some insights into how well-grounded rights various groups have to live there now,

Now we are getting close to the line Richard first warned us about.

The political question of "rights" will only generate discord. The theological question of "rights" will only generate discord. The philosophical one....Well, let's just say the only rule of war is "To the victor go the spoils." (See? Even that would only generate discord.)

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252960#Comment_252960

The political question of "rights" will only generate discord.

Exactly. Which is why I wanted to move away from there and get back to genetics.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252962#Comment_252962

Exactly. Which is why I wanted to move away from there and get back to genetics.

[Y] Agreed. I would include genetics as another dubious basis for claims. My wife can genetically prove her ancestors were the aboriginal dwellers of lands we now call the USA. If that establishes a claim to "rights of occupancy" the Europeans, Asians, Africans and a lot of others owe her reparations......

I don't think anybody "owes" anybody. At least nothing we can ever make right. Only God can parse that out.

The original question was "Are the present day Palestinians descendants of Ishmael?" We are assuming the one who asked that question will attempt to launch a claim to occupancy based on what he perceives to be the answer. The evidence cited so far is overwhelmingly against that being the case. So we need not even address occupancy "rights." But it is an interesting subject. [6]

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252962#Comment_252962

The political question of "rights" will only generate discord.

Exactly. Which is why I wanted to move away from there and get back to genetics.

What would the world be like today IF they had done ALL that the Lord told them to do in the day of Joshua?? [and then kept it up till Jesus came the first time]

[If someone did that today we would call it WAR CRIMES or Jihad]

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252968#Comment_252968

I think he asked a very simple question. It is implausible that the small tribes of Arabia be the ancestors of all the Arabic speaking world. We have ample historical evidence that the Arabs subdued the lands that they occupied and Palestine is one of those lands. We know the inhabitants of the land at the time of the occupation were not Arabs (apart for a very small proportion of Bedouin tribes in the south). The answer is clear. Who were the inhabitants of the land exactly? where did they come from? Luckily that question was not asked. We were merely asked: Is that Danny? And we answered no. Now you ask: So who is he? I think that is more difficult to ascertain.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252970#Comment_252970

What would the world be like today IF

Yeah. Which is why we ought to avoid walking through the minefield of the many surrounding issues. Even many believers have a problem acknowledging a Sovereign God's right to exercise his will.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252971#Comment_252971

The answer is clear. Who were the inhabitants of the land exactly? where did they come from? Luckily that question was not asked. We were merely asked: Is that Danny? And we answered no. Now you ask: So who is he? I think that is more difficult to ascertain.

No, I do not ask any follow-up questions. I don't care who the ancestor is. The question of genetics and identifying who is the progenitor was brought up by fgh.

The original question was "Are the present
day Palestinians descendants of Ishmael?" We are assuming the one who
asked that question will attempt to launch a claim to occupancy based on
what he perceives to be the answer. The evidence cited so far is
overwhelmingly against that being the case. So we need not even address
occupancy "rights."

We all agree the majority of evidence precludes Ishmael as the patriarch of Palestine. Whatever point the inquirer was making is now moot and baseless.

edit: When I say "inquirer" I am not referring to Y2K2 (the original poster) I meant to say the colleague who posits the Ishmael/Palestinian connection. Y2K2 is right! The colleague is wrong. [C]

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252975#Comment_252975

We all agree the majority of evidence precludes Ishmael as the patriarch of Palestine. Whatever point the inquirer was making is now moot and baseless.

[H]

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252956#Comment_252956

Let's not mix up the political question with the genetical question. A study of census figures might possibly offer some insights into how well-grounded rights various groups have to live there now, but I can't imagine how it could prove anything about genetics.

I do not see any mixing-in of the political issues here. We are not speaking politics. I think census has something to say about the demographic moves in the region and that is supported also by the genetic studies.

One thing we can conclude is, that today's Palestinians are Arabs, whatever that word means today (as it was stated already). That means they are not a separate ethnic group but are part of the same melting pot of peoples and ethnic origins as the rest of the Arabic population of that region.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253047#Comment_253047

You might find some information on the web pages of the Israel Science and Technology, in the article "What is Palestine and Palestinians?"

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253047#Comment_253047

One thing we can conclude is, that today's Palestinians are Arabs, whatever that word means today

You use the term "Arab" in a different manner than I do but then I have a very good friend who is Palestinian/Lebanese by his own designation.[;)]

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253052#Comment_253052

by his own designation.

[Y]

Y2K2

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252897#Comment_252897

Thank you Pam. I will use that link this evening.

To all of you who have replied to my original post I say THANK YOU!

Thanks to you I have a lot more information than I had previously and enough tips and names of resources to research the topic further on my own.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253052#Comment_253052

I have a very good friend who is Palestinian/Lebanese by his own designation

I also have some good friends among the Palestinian Christians. One of them visited our church just a few weeks ago. They are wonderful Arab Christians.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253052#Comment_253052

One thing we can conclude is, that today's Palestinians are Arabs, whatever that word means today

You use the term "Arab" in a different manner than I do but then I have a very good friend who is Palestinian/Lebanese by his own designation.

In the late 1970's I had a friend who also designated himself Palestinian/Lebanese and it was not to avoid the ill feelings of ignorant Americans. He wanted to be known for his true heritage and not a political check box on a Census form. I once made the mistake in conversation with a Puerto Rican co-worker of including her in the broad term of "Hispanic." She was offended and instructed me there is no such race as "Hispanic." My Iraqi co-worked educated me regarding Arabs being a different race from Persians.

I guess it is presumptuous to assume people are the same based on geography, skin color or economic standing. Otherwise there would be less borders in the 6 continents. I enjoy living in a world of diverse ethnicity.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253144#Comment_253144

True story: in 1970 I was teaching in San Francisco (working for a computer company). The US Department of Veteran Affairs sent out a survey that we were to fill out to identify the ethnicity of the students in our class and to tag whether the ethnicity was (1) what the student claimed to be (2) what they looked like they were or (3) what their classmates treated them as if they were. I found the second part so offensive that my class decided with Angelo Figuero's consent to label Angelo as Eskimo and label if "what their classmates treated them as" - we couldn't see why we would treat Eskimos and Puerto Ricans any differently.[:P]

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253144#Comment_253144

I guess it is presumptuous to assume people are the same based on geography, skin color or economic standing. Otherwise there would be less borders in the 6 continents. I enjoy living in a world of diverse ethnicity.

Matthew, I live in the multi-ethnic land of Silesia (Schlesien). It would take long time to speak about all the nuances of the demographic changes in the last 100 years in our region. So I am not trying to assume that because of the geography we get the same people group. It would be very funny to look at Persians, Kurds (former Medes), Arabs, and all the other ethnic groups, withing that main nations as one ethnic, just because they live within the same borders, let's say Iraq. On the other hand it is nothing presumptuous to patiently insist on the facts (concerning the Palestinian Arabs living whether in Jordan or Israel, or Gaza strip or somewhere else.) The fact is there are other than plainly scientific (demographic, genetic etc.) reasons to speak about the separate ethnic entity in this case. Because to speak about it would be beyond the forum rules, we will probably do good to drop the subject.

Happy Birthday Matthew [^] [G]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253196#Comment_253196

we will probably do good to drop the subject.

I agree. The original question has been answered to Y2K2's satisfaction.