For Sale: Pillar, Baker Exeg., Baker NT, BDAG, AT Robertson - $390
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Not getting into the above debate either, but I do agree. I hope this does not become the sales forum. Create a separate forum so I can ignore all sales threads Logos and then send all donated licenses directly to me :-)Damian McGrath said:But, I'm sorry to hear that the forums may become a place where items are put up for sale...
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It's not a debate anymore.
I don't own the forums either.
I do think there is a communication breakdown in the Logos ranks.
What I think doesn't really matter.
I'd love to have been told wrong and permitted now to sell my "duplicates."
Done with this one......
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Wow! There sure were a lot of assumptions and prejudgments made about the author in that first page!
A private message or email would have been a better way to address some of those concerns about what the author is doing than posting in a public forum and hijacking his For Sale thread.
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Kevin and Rick,
I'm very sorry for the confusion, and that I wasn't on the forums sooner.
It appears someone at Logos has misinformed you. (It's our fault. We have 175+ people and sometimes it is hard to get everyone on the same page.)
As I've explained at great length in another topic, we price the upgrades to reflect the earlier purchases. We try very hard not to make policies, and to be able to stay flexible to meet our customers varied needs and circumstances, but that's what leads to the confusion sometimes.
I will be talking with the sales team tomorrow to make sure everyone's on the same page. After I've talked with them, I'd be happy to talk with you directly about what was promised to you, etc.
Please remember that these "problems" are a result of our trying to continue to add value for new users -- including you, when you make new purchases. It's logistically easier for us to simply "sell you up" to the new collection, instead of running the massive database task of building a custom "your upgrade contains" collection for every single user's unique collection. But if that's what it takes to kill this idea that people are getting "two licenses", then maybe we'll have to do that.
We have to pay publishers royalties. We have a single title, for example, with a $56 royalty in it. When a user who purchased that separately, say, for $100, buys a $350 upgrade to a new large collection that contains it, we don't send a second $56 to the publisher. So if you resell your "separate" license from the $100 product, the book ends up with two people and the publisher gets paid once.
Now we could handle this on the server with, as I suggested, massive amounts of library analysis and the generation of custom upgrade collections for each user that don't include any title previously purchased, etc. But wouldn't you rather we put our coding time into the feature?
I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to share the understanding of the problem.
Possible solutions? Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered. (A lot of code, but doable. We'd have to record transfers as negative purchases, to have your records reflect not only what you'd spent with us, but what you'd "unspent" as well.)
Or we bite the bullet and change our marketing to clearly state that licenses are never transferable? It's actually pretty common -- most e-book platforms don't do transfers. We'd lose some customers, but?...
Or simply restrict license transfer to "all or nothing"? So you can retire and leave your investment to the new minister, or to your grandkid in your will, but can't sell it piecemeal?
What's fair?
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Bob Pritchett said:
Possible solutions? Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered. (A lot of code, but doable. We'd have to record transfers as negative purchases, to have your records reflect not only what you'd spent with us, but what you'd "unspent" as well.)
This is the best, except for the cost of rewriting of your system.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I agree.
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Bob,
It's not just one person, several of your sales reps have told LOTS of people this same information. In regards to your statement about not sending the publisher a second ($56 dollars) it seems as if you should. For instance in my case, my 2 resources did not give me anything off the price. It would have been the exact same price if I upgraded without having bought those 2 resources. So should I have sold my resources before buying the upgrade? (If so the rep should have told me so, instead of the false info, and I would have done it, as not to have wasted the money I spent on those resources that were recently purchased.)
So then I would have upgraded to the new package, paid the hefty fee, and it would of been as if I bought that book for the first time, thus the publisher would be paid a royalty. I can understand for books that are the same in both packages, because you are not "re-buying" those books, you are paying for all the new resources. In a case like mine, I mainly upgraded to get the resources I already had (which makes no sense to do since there isn't much else in that upgrade that is useable to me, unless I did what your rep said which was sell the 2 separate resources in question just like I would "any other book.") I would not have paid the price I paid to upgrade to access the random books that come in the new package that I will never use - it just isn't worth it.
Also, I"m not sure if you record phone calls, but if you do, you may be interested in pulling up the phone call, because the rep give me more then just a "little information." They told me it was "common" and then went on to explain the entire process to me. (Having me and my friend both call at the same time, and how you switch the license to his account from mine, etc, etc...) It was a pretty detailed conversation for someone who may have been misinformed. As many people who I know that have said they were told the same thing (and I can send out a tweet tomorrow and see how many more have gotten the same info) I'm surprised this is just now coming up. It seems the reps have been telling people this for a while; even before the Logos 4 upgrade.
None the less, if I'm not able to do what the rep on the phone told me I could do I would like to talk with you about what my options are, since a key factor in me paying the hefty fee for the upgrade was that I would be able to sell the 2 resources in question.
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"Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered"
I don't understand this. Why would you move from the new collection anything transferred? That doesn't make sense. For instance if I bought a gold package, Logos 4 - and then bought a BDAG for 100 bucks, and returned it a few weeks later because I didn't like how it key-linked, or something else, or perhaps gifted to a friend who wanted it, but couldn't afford it - then a month later you came out with Logos 4 and I decide to upgrade to the new Logos 4. I pay the upgrade price from Logos 3 to Logos 4, and it just so happens Logos 4 has BDAG in it. You are saying that you should delete BDAG out of my new LOGOS 4 package because I had it in the past, and sold it, gifted it, or returned it? What difference does that make on the package I have vs the package I'm upgrading to? I'm PAYING to upgrade to the new collection, EVERYTHING that's in it. If you take out something out of the new package we are buying, then we aren't getting what we paid for, since we pay for everything that comes on the list of products that says is included with the new package. (which is what you are saying you are doing for me and others that have resources we bought separate - you are basically taking them out of the new package we are buying.)
This is one of the reason I have trouble with electronic books. (Logos, Kindle, etc...). It's very confusing who OWNS the books. Recently amazon got into a lot of trouble by deleting 1984 off of people's kindle who felt that they owed the book, and even though it was a digital book, it should be treated just like a hard copy. (it certainly no cheaper) If I would had bought BDAG for 100 bucks, and later bought someone library and that library included BDAG I would have 2 copies of BDAG, but with it being electronic "books" there are so many loop-holes that make it unclear to the consumer what we are purchasing, and what is "ours." Then when things are unclear, we don't really understand our rights to the items we believe we are "purchasing" and then posts like this pop up. (You never see forums like this over hard copy books. You buy a book - you own it. It's very clear. It's not so clear when dealing with electronic books.)
I apologize for the tone of this post, but it's frustrating when you are unclear on your ownership rights, and you contact the only ones who you know you can provide you with clarity, and they give you misleading information. (And in the end the consumer has no idea if they info is right or wrong, I'd have to do tons of research to find out who is right, and what my ownership rights really are.) Things are just to unclear. (even the upgrade paths that I have heard are different prices for people with the exact same resources, different prices when calling in, different prices when logging into your account, etc. Just very unclear to me.
Again, you don't have these sorts of issues with printed books.
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RickSmith said:
"Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered"
I don't understand this. Why would you move from the new collection anything transferred? That doesn't make sense.
That's not how I understood it when I read it. I was thinking discount collection is the collection of all licenses that would be used to calculate the discount amount for upgrade packages. And that made sense.
If he meant it how you understood it, then I'd have to agree that it doesn't make sense.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Bob Pritchett said:
Possible solutions? Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered. (A lot of code, but doable. We'd have to record transfers as negative purchases, to have your records reflect not only what you'd spent with us, but what you'd "unspent" as well.)
Bob, thanks for reading and responding to this thread!
This option I copied above has the Logos "feel" to it to me. It's more like owning a physical book which the customer controls, not some totally DRM locked down resource that is in the control of the company, like Amazon's model.
This is something that has attracted me to Logos and I know many others as well. I have always assumed (and you have operated this way in the past) that Logos would allow us to transfer individually purchased books around as if they were physical books of which we were in control. Of course this doesn't apply to bundled titles that came in packages.
It may cost Logos some money in the short run, and you may end up not making as much on upgrades, but think about the customer loyalty you are gaining by treating us well! Happy customers refer others.
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Bob, this problem is nothing a well written policy could not solve. there I said it... the "P" word. I know you hate it, but look at the carnage brother. Not to mention the Mac 1 vs. Alpha situation which has got me confused and unless you step in, people are only going to get grumpier.
See HERE
and HERE
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The upgrade price could be dynamic per user. If someone wants to sell resources before upgrading, then that could cause the upgrade price to increase if those resources were part of the higher collection. So if someone sells BDAG, have their upgrade price automatically increase by $150. If that's too much work, then simply flag recent resellers ineligible for upgrade discounts within a certain period of time.
An easier option would simply to post what Bob stated on the upgrade page. It's not clear to everyone why a user is seeing 25% off instead of 15%. There should be an explanation below stating that this reflects redundancy in what the user has already purchased and what is in the offered package. Then state that selling current resources may cause the upgrade price to increase. Even if the code is not yet implemented to do this, the warning itself would be a deterrent.
The biggest loopholes in the reseller market are with the academic pricing. It would be easy for an academic user to make a profit selling off discounted resources. Academic users should not be allowed any transfers until 1 year out of the academic program. Furthermore, they should only be offered downloadable products that can tie the license key with their accounts.
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MattWhite said:
So if someone sells BDAG, have their upgrade price automatically increase by $150.
Sorry to jump into the fray on this hijack of the guy's For Sale thread.
The upgrade price would only increase by some percentage of that $150. The money you spent on previous unlocks is not credited dollar for dollar to upgrade pricing. For BDAG on an upgrade to platinum your discount might be $20 or $25, just a guess. This is why it would be nice to be able to sell off individually purchased resources before upgrading to packages that include these resources.
EDIT: come to think of it, this would work two ways. Customers would be more likely to purchase individual resources that are not bundled in a package knowing that they could sell the resource in the future. I don't buy new cars because they lose so much value when they are driven off of the lot. It's the same with a Logos resource, if I know I'll only get a dime on the dollar credit when it comes time to upgrade I'm less likely to buy the resource. But if i can sell it to someone who is not able to upgrade and get more of my money back I'm that much more likely to spend money on individual resources.
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Bob, I have a feeling no matter which way you choose to address this issue people will be unhappy, myself included. But I think you need to do what's best for Logos in this case. Logos is a business and therefore needs to make a profit. If it doesn't make a profit then eventually it won't be there for its customers and they will lose what they have invested in resources. I know none of us wants that to happen.
Logos has always given me tremendous value for the dollars I've spent. Thank you.
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