Helpfulness of the Talmud
How have you found the Talmud to be helpful in your study of Scripture?I am thinking of purchasing it.
Thank You in advance.
Pastor Jesse Blevins
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Forum discussion => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/38001/284517.aspx#284517 includes Talmud example (cultural contrast).
While reading in Leviticus, thought about some Talmud discussions (and codification of various verses). For example, Leviticus 21:9 is cited in Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud (same sentence includes Lev 18:17 and Lev 20:14).
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Well, first as you probably know (and speaking in the vernacular), the Talmud dates probably somewhere between 200 and 400ce. Portions could be somewhat earlier and some much later (all the way to 600ce or so). In any event, you'd be in the same timeframe as Turtullian all the way past the Council of Calcedon and approaching the collapse of the Roman empire.
What we call the Talmud is based (and tagged) to the Mishnah, which probably dates from maybe the 1st century and ending approximately 200ce (mainly towards the latter).
It's necessary to point out the 'dating', since there's a temptation to move the two backward into the times of Jesus/Paul. The reason for that is that there are a considerable number of parallels with the NT. Indeed Logos has an excellent resource from the mid-1800s going over these: http://www.logos.com/product/5912/a-commentary-on-the-new-testament-from-the-talmud-and-hebraica
I'm presently reading up on the Targum. Those are the aramaic translation (approximately) to the OT. They ALSO have a lot of parallels to the NT. But like the Talmud, the copies we have are dated much later.
The best way to connect all of these (NT, Mishnah, Targums, Talmud) per McNamara is they all seem to work off the same judaic beliefs during the time of the NT and then later into the Apostolic Fathers period.
As a pastor, the primary value is for illustrating your sermons, whether Jesus in Palestine, or Paul among the diaspora ... they have details that match the NT, demonstrating the NT has a considerable amount of historicity and also what possibly Jesus' and Paul's listeners were familiar with. What the listeners 'heard'.
If you buy the CP Talmud, make sure you also have the Mishnah: http://www.logos.com/product/297/the-mishnah-a-new-translation (which the Talmud expands on).
If you're not really comfortable with this whole area, the Mishnah has everything I'm speaking to, is much earlier, and will be referenced in some of your other resources. But if eventually, you may do reading in this area, $40-50 for the Babylonian Talmud is not bad.
Hope this helps a little.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks Denise for that translation. I am trying to get more out of my Talmud and Mishnah resources, if I am studying an OT (or event NT) verse(s), what is the best way to find reference to them in Talmud/Mishnah resources since they are not organized the same? I struggle with this a bit.
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I'm sure the 'Davids' will wish to comment, but you're right ... the Mishnah and Talmud are organized relative to jewish life; not the OT. Even more surprising, the Mishnah doesn't make a lot of direct comment against the OT.
And so, basically I 'connect' two ways. I mentioned Lightfoot's commentary above. It discusses the geographical references (a whole book), and then the gospels, Acts and portions of 1 Corinthians.Most of the time he doesn't directly reference 'where' the rabbinics say something, but with Logos, it's not hard to track it down. And of course, as with any of the resources discussing judaic ideas vs the NT, you have to tread lightly.
The other way (and my main way), is simply when I'm studying a subject, to routinely search a collection of the mishnah, Lightfoot, the Talmud (and I hope eventually in english), the Targums. I do the same for a collection of Philo/Josephus, and then another collection of the OT apocrypha/pseudepigrapha. I use collections to try to narrow down the period.
For example last week I was trying to get a handle on baptism. Every time I see something that doesn't make sense, quite often the answer lies somewhere in the judaic writings. Not to discuss 'theology', but I wanted to know why on Pentecost 'baptism' was Peter's immediate answer and how jews would not have seen that as jewish conversion or 'John the Baptist'. Later on in Galatians, it becomes obvious looking at the Talmud, what seemed to happening when Paul was converting gentiles. And so on.
One last piece of advice ... if you search your library for 'Talmud' by resource (of course), you'd be surprised who makes reference quite a bit: Bob Utley!
Again ... don't know if this helps any.
I sure hope you ordered the pre-pub that contains McNamara's Targums and the Testament. In the second half, it contains a detailed discussion of the linkage with the NT. One that caught my eye an hour ago was the story of the prodigal son and the usage of 'before' as in 'sinned before someone'. Now that happens to be a lesson in itself.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Thanks Denise, very helpful!
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I missed the pre pub on the first set by Neusner.
Will the set currently offered on CP be as good? Does one need them both?
Thanks, especially to Denise.
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There's another thread a couple of days ago which asked the same question.
The Logos guy (who's quite helpful) noted some detailed differences, significant if you're really 'into' the Talmud.
Personally, if you missed the Neusner one, this one would be fine for what you seem to need it for. It only includes the big-boy (Babylonian) and is missing a little of that, but then has some that the Neusner one doesn't. Plus/minus. For the price, this one's great.
After you discover that you always wanted to be a Talmud scholar, maybe Neusner might be a great investment (includes commentary).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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George ... 'Turtle-ian' was an honest error. Really, it was.
That fact that 'Turtle-ian' wrote 'On the Apparel of Women' was just coincidental.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
The Logos guy (who's quite helpful) noted some detailed differences, significant if you're really 'into' the Talmud.
Personally, if you missed the Neusner one, this one would be fine for what you seem to need it for. It only includes the big-boy (Babylonian) and is missing a little of that, but then has some that the Neusner one doesn't. Plus/minus. For the price, this one's great.
Logos employee is Vincent Setterholm
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/37632/283951.aspx#283951
Denise Barnhart said:After you discover that you always wanted to be a Talmud scholar, maybe Neusner might be a great investment (includes commentary).
http://www.logos.com/product/6667/babylonian-and-jerusalem-talmud-collection
http://www.logos.com/product/4655/early-judaism-bundle
Scholar's Platinum and Portfolio include: "A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ (5 vols.)"
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What is the difference between the Neusner translation and the one currently in pre-pub, Rodkinson's translation? http://www.logos.com/product/10356/the-babylonian-talmud-original-text-edited-corrected-formulated-and-translated-into-english
If you already have Neusner, what benefit would you gain by purchasing Rodkinson's?
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Ryan Schatz said:
What is the difference between the Neusner translation and the one currently in pre-pub, Rodkinson's translation? http://www.logos.com/product/10356/the-babylonian-talmud-original-text-edited-corrected-formulated-and-translated-into-english
If you already have Neusner, what benefit would you gain by purchasing Rodkinson's?
Please read Vincent Setterholm's reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/37632/283951.aspx#283951
Community bidding for http://www.logos.com/product/10356/the-babylonian-talmud-original-text-edited-corrected-formulated-and-translated-into-english
now at $ 25 with closing Friday 16 Sep 2011 @ Noon Pacific time (have Neusner translation in library with successful bid placed for Rodkinson).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Please read Vincent Setterholm's reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/37632/283951.aspx#283951
Community bidding for http://www.logos.com/product/10356/the-babylonian-talmud-original-text-edited-corrected-formulated-and-translated-into-english
now at $ 25 with closing Friday 16 Sep 2011 @ Noon Pacific time (have Neusner translation in library with successful bid placed for Rodkinson).
Keep Smiling
Thanks, that was helpful.
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